timb99

I've never used Clenzoil, but I'm sure it'll work fine. You don't ahve to worry much about cleaning lead, as virtually all shotgun shells have wads with petals that protect the lead from the barrel. Most plastic residue is found in choke tubes, which can be removed and left to soak in whatever "stuff" you want to use. I use Ed's Red (you can google it) and the plastic falls off after a day of soaking. Run a boresnake through your barrel each time after you shoot it, and clean your barrel thoroughly once a year, and you'll be fine.

Ah, the infamous "can I buy one gun to use for all sports?" question. Of course you can, but like the old saying goes, "a jack of all trades is a master of none." Personally, I would list the following guns as good all around guns, and not necessarily in any particular order: Remington 1100 or 1187 semi-autos Remington 870 pump Winchester Model 12 pump Beretta 390, 391, or 3901 semi-autos Browning Gold semi-autos Browning Citori over/unders Beretta 68x series over/unders Some people love the Benelli's. In my experience (admittedly, limited) Benelli's are a superb hunting gun, but a little too light and too much recoil for clay target games. If you're a hunter who occasionally shoots targets, I suppose they're just fine. There may be more, but I can't think of them right now. Regarding ported barrels. in my humble opinion, they're a gimmick. Unlike ported rifles, they really don't have much effect on recoil for shotguns, and they do make the gun much louder. If anything, they make the gun shoot just a tad lower, and might help a little on muzzle jump to allow a little easier follow-on shot. But frankly, I've never thought any of my non-ported guns had a problem in that regard. Your mileage may vary....

Internet Wizard. I like that. Here's one for you and KG22122 and anyone else who chooses to read this. MOST hunters and targets shooters would be far, far better served by spending their money on a wingshooting clinic, individual wingshooting classes, getting their gun to fit properly, and practicing on skeet, trap, and sporting clays targets than by spending their money on gimmicks like cryogenically treated barrels, titanium choke tubes, and ported barrels. Gimmicks won't get you that bird that you wouldn't have gotten without them. Good gun fit and good marksmanship skills WILL get you a lot of birds that you wouldn't have without them. Practice and instruction WILL make you a better shooter. A cryogenically treated barrel will NOT make you a better shooter. Save the money that you would have spent on the gimmicks, and instead spend it on practice, or a good gun fitting session and lessons. It'll pay off more. And that is a fact, not the musings of an Internet Wizard. Though I do like the name. Maybe I'll change my login name to "The Grand and Glorious Imperious Internet Wizard." naaah.

mudhen, Not bent out of shape, and wasn't posting for your benefit anyway. As far as believing Benelli's marketing, well, after all, that's what they're banking on, isn't it?

KG "You say that unless you do some custom work on a gun, the results are pretty much the same among them. Speaking for barrels." Yes. Pick a gun that you like, can afford, and that fits you well. Gun fit is really important, especially with moving targets. The gun MUST shoot where you're pointing, or everything else is moot. Try a few different choke tubes, and a few different brands/types of ammo, and go with the one that gives you the best patterns, and don't worry about it any more. The biggest key to hitting moving targets with a shotgun is to practice. Exceptionally great patterns are useless if you miss the target. On the other hand, even mediocre patterns will kill game birds if you point the gun properly. Tim

If you are using your Benelli for hunting, you are really wasting your time and money trying to get your pattern "a little bit better" than what you have. You will not be able to tell the difference. For the purposes of hunting, its 99% shooter and 1/2% barrel and 1/2% shells. Again, just my opinion. On the other hand, if you want the best pattern possible because there's money on the line, frankly, don't waste your time on a Benelli. Get a high dollar gun and have the barrel sent to Tom Wilkinson or Kerry Allor, tell them what you want in a pattern, and have them work on it. Expect to pay mondo dollars. I mean, have you shot enough patterns and counted enough pellets and pellet holes to convince yourself the barrel you have isn't doing what you want it to? If you haven't, what makes you think a crio barrel or a backbored barrel or extended forcing cones are going to 1.) really make any difference and 2.) make anything better? I have friends who have spent lots of money doing these things for target shooting barrels, and some have had success with improved pattern density, and some have not (comparing the patterns before and after the modifications.) But these guys are shooting tens of thousands of targets each year, and many have money on the line. Bottom line, though, it didn't make them better shooters. So what if your hunting gun's barrel puts 70% of the pellets in a 30" circle at 40 yards, versus a high dollar target barrel that puts 80%? The pheasant or dove or duck you're shooting at will still be dead as a doornail if YOU pointed your gun properly and hit it dead center in the pattern. And it'll fly away if you don't. Shotgun barrels are pretty basic. Unless they're dramatically screwed up (like...bent, or shooting half a pattern off), most shotgun barrels, at least for guns bought over-the-counter, will throw pretty much the same pattern for pretty much the same choke (within reason.) And even then, they vary shot to shot and will behave differently with different ammo. You're not talking about a rifle barrel where you can tune them to put 5 bullets in the same hole at 200 yards. You're welcome to spend a bunch of money on your barrel, but frankly, in the end, you won't be able to tell the difference and you'll just be out a bunch of money. Again, just one man's opinion.

In my opinion: Crio treatment and back boring are a waste of money, unless your barrel throws truly horrible patterns, in which case you should get a different gun. The only way to tell what kind of patterns your gun throws is to do a lot of testing. A program called "shotgun insight" is very helpful in this regard. On the other hand, most shotguns thoow acceptable patterns for hunting, and will do all you need. The most important thing is to practice, practice, practice on clay targets until you're good.

In my opinion: Crio treatment and back boring are a waste of money, unless your barrel throws truly horrible patterns, in which case you should get a different gun. The only way to tell what king of patterns your gun throws is to do a lot of testing. A program called "shotgun insight" is very helpful in this regard. On the other hand, most shotguns thoow acceptable patterns for hunting, and will do all you need. The most important thing is to practice, practice, practice on clay targets until you're good.

Hope to cook one up this weekend. Wife has a recipe for Thai coconut-ginger soup. Going to try it with pheasant instead of chicken.

Remember, steel and other non-toxic shot used for waterfowl will pattern tighter than lead shot. Not sure why the Benelli would pattern significanly tighter than the Beretta. I can't imagine there being that much difference in the barrels. Did you compare them side to side on the same day with the same ammo? With 6 or 8 shots on paper?That might tell you something. Dunno, but good luck. I think Briley sells spreader (or diffusion) chokes. Post back if you discover anything significant. Tim

The only thing more open than skeet (0.005" restriction) is cylinder which has no restriction, that is, the choke tube ID is the same as the barrel ID (bore.) Some manufacturers have dabbled with a "spreader" choke that is actually negative, that is 0.005 inches in diameter larger than the bore, but I'm not sure who makes them, and I'm not sure how well they perform. What are you needing this open choke for?

All the pheasants I shot this past weekend in SD I used 20 gauge, 2-3/4" Remington Heavy Game Loads with 1 ounce of 5 shot, and muzzle velocity of 1220 fps. Improved Cylinder choke in first barrel, modified in the second. (Older gun, they're fixed chokes.) I am thoroughly convinced if you pick your shots (no 50 yarders) and shoot the birds in the lips, you will kill them. Killing pheasants has more to do with the nut behind the trigger than the shell in the chamber.

TMAC Limit in SD is 3 roosters per day, possession limit of 15. Birds flush like grasshoppers up there. Hope you can give it a try some day. Worth it, I think, if you're a pheasant hunting afficionado. These birds DO NOT behave like pay-to-hunt birds. Tim

One more photo.

Have a look.

Tucker, Sent you a PM. The photos were taken with my cell phone, so they're not great. Tim

This hunt was awesome. The weather cooperated. Cold, but no wind, which is remarkable for late December in South Dakota. Enough of the birds were holding tight that we had no trouble limiting out. Friday, in 2 hours, Saturday took a little longer…6 hours, and Sunday I hunted from 10:00 a.m. until 11:45 and limited out again (SD limit is 3 roosters.) My German Shorthaired, Katie, had numerous awesome points. Usually, they were hens, but two were on roosters and I closed the deal both times. Just wish she'd retrieve, but I guess I never spent enough time with her on that (she'll retrieve dummies all day, but put feathers on it???no way!) One of her points was on a bird that one of our group had shot at, and dropped a leg but didn't down. It flew over a hill 300 yards away. Thought we'd never see it again, but later my dog went on point, and it was funny, the dog was literally nose-to-nose with this bird, and neither would move. Turns out it was the bird he had dropped a leg on. The only time I've seen more birds was on a guided hunt at a pay-to-hunt place near Kimball, SD. We'd get out of the car and close the car door, and see 50-60 birds flush 200 yards away, and we'd still get birds. BTW, when I was about 12 years old, my Dad bought me a Savage-Stevens Model 311B 20 gauge side-by-side double-trigger shotgun. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it, and I always knew the gun was faulty. I took that same gun out to the skeet field the other day and someone pointed out it was a little short for me, so I added a recoil pad. Just for fun, I took that gun with me, and that's the gun I used to hunt this past weekend. Just goes to show…when you can't hit anything with your shotgun, it's usually the nut behind the trigger that's at fault. Took some photos, but can't figure out how to put them in this post. Tim

The standard Condor does not have a barrel selector. It always shoots bottom barrel first, which, honestly, is not that big a deal. For trap singles, load one shell in the bottom barrel. For trap doubles, skeet, or sporting clays where two shots are required, load both barrels, and just pull the trigger twice like a semi-auto. Make sure you release finger pressure off the trigger in between shots. Good luck. Tim

Released birds in a game farm, 7-1/2's work OK. Wild birds, I use 4, 5, or 6 shot. Late season, I use 4 or 5 shot.

Haven't looked lately. I bought a case of Remington Game Loads (1 oz. of #6 shot at 1200 fps) about 3 years ago, and haven't bought anything since. I'm about the only guy I know who shoots 16 gauge.

Hey, I have an Ithaca 37 in 16 gauge too. 1952 model, fixed modified choke, no rib. Love that gun, though honestly, my Stoeger Condor fits me a little better. I had trouble with Fiocchi shells in my Ithaca 37. When I pumped it, two shells would come out of the magazine tube, jamming things up. Works fine with Remington Game Loads, though. Quail decline, quite honestly, is usually due to loss of, or lack of, suitable habitat. Good habitat (right kind of foliage, etc.) allows them to elude both airborne and ground predators. Of course, development kills habitat. Tim

Daily limit in Kansas is 4 roosters. I also hunt Nebraska and South Dakota. Daily limits in both are 3 roosters. Made pheasant tortilla soup last Sunday. YUM! Even my wife liked it! Here in Kansas we also have a pretty fair population of bobwhite quail. Way fun to hunt too. Love it when my shorthair goes on point on a covey, then they bust and it scares you to death even though you knew it was coming! We also have prairie chicken, or so I'm told. I've never seen one, though. Fiocchi makes a nice pheasant shell too. I use my own reloads. 1-1/4 ounces of 5 shot at about 1350 fps. Does the job if I do my part. Tim

Chad, No doubt those Remington shells work fine, but its been my experience that it has more to do with the nut behind the trigger putting birds "feet up," as you say, than the brand of shells you use. If you're killing pheasants, you're doing most of the work. The shells are just helping. If you're hitting the birds in the lips, so to speak, you'll kill them. Damn, I love pheasant hunting. Wish I could afford to do it more. Tim

Been out twice in the past month myself. Western Kansas near Ness City on the weekend of the 16/17/18 November. Hunted Friday afternoon, Saturday, and Sunday morning. Waaaay too hot to be pheasant hunting. Way too hot to be mid-November. But between 7 of us, we bagged 15 roosters. I had 2 solo kills plus at least 3 where I "contributed." Went out yesterday near Atchison KS, on State land that requires a drawing to hunt. Bagged one rooster, plus two bobwhite quail, one male, one female. Good hunting, and waaaay better than being in an office at work, that's for sure. I use a 28" Condor I've had since January of 2001. This gun has helped me bag many, many pheasants. Frankly, it has a trigger like a Daisy Red Rider, and that's AFTER I did some polishing on the mechanism to make it better than it was. But it fits me reasonably well, and it keeps going bang when I pull the trigger. Tim

Novaking, Agreed. Carlsons is one of my favorites. They put tubes in my Zoli sporting clays gun. Excellent work, and less costly (and faster turn-around) than Briley. Tim