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Thinking about "defanging" my HD shotgun (opinions)


shotgunNoob

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I have been considering removing certain accessories from my SuperNova Tactical and would like some decent opinions.

 

The accessories Im thinking about removing are the mag tube extension and the white light system. The reasons, for the most part, have to do with a) reduction of weight, b) fewer items means there is less to worry about, and c) making for a more "politically correct" HD weapon..so to speak.

 

Now, I will be keeping the Mesa Tactical 4 shell carrier as the total mag capacity would be dropped to 4 (only 3 being kept in the tube at all times). I feel that, with enough practice and should the need ever arise, I will (time permitting) be able to chamber a round and replinish the mag tube with 2 more shells via the carrier.

 

Personally, I feel I can live without the extension as 3 rounds should be enough to halt most HD situations. Its the light system Im somewhat leary of removing. Of course, without the mag extension, there can be no weapon mounted light. Thus, they are essentially linked.

 

So, thoughts? Is this an unwise thing to do? Consider that I also keep a .45 ACP around which I happen to think of as my primary HD weapon.

Edited by shotgunNoob
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I think its somewhat funny that you say that you could live without the mag tube extension but will be keeping extra rounds in a shell carrier. To me an extended magazine tube is the ultimate shell carrier, especially if the extension you are taking off is +3 or better. I cannot think of any HD situation where I would rather be loading shells from a carrier over having the shells ready to go in the time it takes the action to cycle.

 

If you were me (and I was you at that point) what I would do is keep the extension and the light and drop the shell carrier. Especially when you say that the 45 is your primary HD weapon, you would only be going for this shotgun in a super dire situation (eg you emptied the 45 but threat still remains), at which point I would think you would want all the firepower you can get right NOW and I think a loaded extension tube would be really helpful then.

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I think its somewhat funny that you say that you could live without the mag tube extension but will be keeping extra rounds in a shell carrier.
Essentially, my reasons for this are that the extension/light combo adds a decent amount of weight. Heck, even the extension by itself makes a difference in "balance". Now, while the sidesaddle does add weight, it is closer to the middle of the weapon. Therefore, it allows for greater balance vs the other 2 items. Keep in mind that, with any mag tube extension, there may be a higher probability for feeding/reliability issues.

 

Im also thinking, given that my shotgun has a PG stock, the weapon might be considered "less aggressive" without the extension and light. This is always stuff to consider when dealing with a jury or prosecutor who may have issues with "tactical" weaponry, should the weapon ever actually be used in an HD situation. The sidesaddle I would keep as its presence is more justifiable, given the lack of an extension.

 

So, there is a "method" to my madness here.;)

 

Besides, I only keep 4 rounds in the tube as is. With this thing going back to stock, I would keep 3. Sure, Im losing a round. But, if I actually had time to add more rounds, Id still be able to end up with 4 in the tube, one in the chamber and 2 left on the gun. If this isnt enough to end an HD encounter...Im more than likely screwed anyway!

Edited by shotgunNoob
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None of your arguments make much sense to me... but they are your arguments, from your perspective and your situation, so you do what ever you think will work for you.

Taking pot shots at your logic, using my logic as point of reference is a waste of time.

 

What other's think, including myself, isn't that relevant... because we don't live in your world.

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agm65ccip knows the true value of a mag extension over a side sadnes saddle,,mag extensions are the first item to be installed if your gonna deck out your Benelli for hd,,all else is secondary,,thats if your Benelli doesn't already come with a mag extension,,plus install one of those side sadnesses to tight and you'd wish you have the extra mag tube instead...there you have it,,some decent opinions,,

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Getting rid of a mag ext and light would be senseless for HD work. The side saddle should be the first to go or maybe getting a regular stock b4 getting rid of your mag tube or light. just my 2 cents.

 

 

agreed. I'd keep the extension, but get rid of the side saddle if your looking to lose weight. In a home defense situation the need to reload a full load isnt usually there, and if it is your either in the wrong neighborhood or the wrong situation. The side saddle throws off the ballance of the gun more than that of the extension in my opinion. A light might be needed if the guns intended use is HD. A weapon light is a great tool, and in a dark house a light could be your best friend. There are options for lights and mounts out there that are lighter than others. What is your current light and mount setup?

 

I understand the weight issue and Im a big fan of KISS, but Id stick with the ext tube and the light if the use intended purpose is really HD. In a HD situation both would come in handy enough so to justify the added weight.

Edited by Irish_11
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What is your current light and mount setup?
Im currently using an Insight M3x Tactical Illuminator (w/remote) mounted to an Insight rail clamp (which is mounted to the mag tube extension). The extension I was using was a Nordic Components +2 unit. But, it has recently been damaged (dont ask), so I will have to replace it with a TacStar +2 extension for now.

 

Maybe, now that I think about it, my main concern is how others may view this weapon (fully outfitted) should I ever be facing legal issues over an HD shooting...no matter how justified.

I mean, it doesnt exactly scream "for hunting only." Rather, it looks like it was outfitted for one purpose and one purpose only.

 

Even though each item has a useful/specific/necessary(?) purpose, Im just wondering if the 12 who may one day judge me will feel the same way. This is, as it should be to anyone who uses a weapon for HD, a very real (and unfortunate) concern.

Edited by shotgunNoob
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Maybe, now that I think about it, my main concern is how others may view this weapon (fully outfitted) should I ever be facing legal issues over an HD shooting...no matter how justified.

 

Even though each item has a useful/specific/necessary(?) purpose, Im just wondering if the 12 who may one day judge me will feel the same way. This is, as it should be to anyone who uses a weapon for HD, a very real (and unfortunate) concern.

 

Good choice on the light setup. I understand your feelings on the leagel ramifications too. I've wondered about those myself.

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Why would you be concerned about the legal ramifications or perceptions of "12"... if your weapon is set up (and loaded with ammunition) the same way as Benelli shotguns used by respected law enforcement agencies across the country?

 

Is a stripped down SNT any more "court friendly" than one with accessories such as a dedicated light, that would be considered (at least to me) entirely defendable in the sense that you went out of your way to absolutely, positively identify an intruder?

 

If anything, a side saddle would be the most glaringly aggressive and least court defendable accessory you have.

 

C

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used by respected law enforcement agencies across the country?

Ill focus on this part of the phrase. A jury probably wouldnt care about the use of such weapons by LE, particularly when used by a civilian for the taking of a human life. To some, especially those who know nothing about weapon accessories or their use, if it looks evil...it is evil. A stripped down SNT does indeed look less "evil" than a fully outfitted one. Keep in mind, Im not knocking this look (I happen to like it). Its just a sad truth....

 

 

 

If anything, a side saddle would be the most glaringly aggressive and least court defendable accessory you have.
Possibly. But, due to the high stress nature of a violent encounter and the affect this has on the body, many things can go wrong, such as "accidentally" ejecting an unfired round, short stroking, etc.

 

Of course, there are also various mechanical failures such as misfeeds, misfires...etc. The sidesaddle adds insurance against such issues.

 

That would be my legal argument anyway.

 

But, this is all off topic anyway. Im still undecided as to which accessories will stay and which will go. All of the responses here have certainly given me some things to consider.

Edited by shotgunNoob
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Since it's my opinion you want ... I'll echo what everyone else has said;

 

You're batshiit crazy if you gimp your mag capacity and light in the name of weight, but then decide to keep a side saddle filled with ammo to reload your small mag tube with.

 

If your gun is too heavy (do you really think it will be too heavy if you are in a HD situation? I'd imagine you wouldn't even feel the weight) then my advice would be to drop the side saddle, those things are terrible anyways.

 

My opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it.

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Since it's my opinion you want ... I'll echo what everyone else has said;

 

You're batshiit crazy if you gimp your mag capacity and light in the name of weight, but then decide to keep a side saddle filled with ammo to reload your small mag tube with.

 

If your gun is too heavy (do you really think it will be too heavy if you are in a HD situation? I'd imagine you wouldn't even feel the weight) then my advice would be to drop the side saddle, those things are terrible anyways.

 

My opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

Umm..well said. But, I have to disagree with the statement regarding side saddles. I have a 4 shell Mesa Tactical carrier which, after 200 rounds of heavy hitting loads, has yet to budge. In addition, it really hasnt thrown off "balance" to any noticeable degree.

 

As for the other comments... Ill just leave things where they are.;)

Edited by shotgunNoob
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It strikes me, ShotgunNoob, that you're trying to reconcile two mutually incompatible objectives. On the one hand, you want easier handling, and for that purpose, I can see your arguments about removing the magazine extension and the light. However, if you're looking to "jury-proof" your SuperNova, losing the mag extension and the light makes no sense if you're going to retain the pistol grip stock and the sidesaddle, the combination of which looks a darn sight more aggressive (in my opinion, anyway) than the extension and light combined with a ComforTech stock. Any DA who has some knowledge of firearms is going to take apart any claim that a shotgun with an 18.5" smooth-bore cylinder choke barrel is intended to be a hunting weapon (especially since you've removed the limiter plug from the magazine). Under the usual rules of a common law (aka "Anglo-Saxon") legal system, the prosecution/plaintiff doesn't get to attack claims you haven't made. If you don't claim on the stand that your SNT is a hunting weapon, they don't get to demolish that claim on cross-examination, so just keep stumm as to the purpose of your shotgun.

 

I'd say (and IANAL, though I've been mistaken for one) that the light might actually be beneficial in a trial situation, in that you can argue that you have the light to help ensure that you don't shoot someone you shouldn't, and it precludes any line of questioning by the DA (or the plaintiff's attorney in a civil trial) along the lines of "it was dark so there's no way you could tell Mr. [intruder] displayed hostile intent" (or better yet, you get to throw the implication back in his face). You might even claim that you got the mag extension for the purpose of mounting the light.

 

Again, I can see your point in wanting to remove the added weight to your muzzle end, but that won't serve the purpose of "defanging/jury-proofing" your SNT if you keep the aggressive-looking stuff further back on the gun. So (again, my personal opinion), you're going to have to choose which matters more: better handling or "jury-proofing."

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I would also say keep the light. If you can't see what your shooting at, all the shells in the world won't save you.

 

I mean really, how many people here have been in a Home Defence situation. And thoughs who have, how many have used the "extra shells" the Ext. mag tube will give you. And thoughs people, how many have had to reload after you cleared that tube. I bet the number of people is zero, or close to zero.

 

The light, how many have used a weapon light thinking there is someone in your house or someone or something outside your house. I HAVE!!

 

I say the light is the more important than the mag tube and the shell carrier. Just my opinion.

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Thanks for the responses.

 

Euromutt, the ideas you suggest are valid and have given me much to consider. Assuming I lose the side saddle and retain the mag extension/light, what would be your ideas regarding these accessories mounted to a shotty utilizing a PG stock? Personally, my arguments for the PG stock (if ever needed in court) might be as follows:

 

1) It allows for greater control of the shotgun. After all, given the powerful nature of the 12 g. shotty, control should be of paramount importance and could be considered a "safety" benefit.

 

2) It allows for, IMHO, greater defense against a possible disarm attempt. This is due to the solid grip it affords (ie. it puts the hand/wrist closer to center mass).

 

3) It allows for greater one-handed manipulation of the shotgun, should the strong side become injured/useless during an HD encounter.

 

4) Simply put, for me, its more ergonomic vs a "standard" style stock and thus, allows me to better maintain consistent, accurate hits.

 

Anyway, Im taking all opinions very seriously as you have all made very good points. Thanks again.

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Let me begin by stating that I think a pistol grip stock is likely to look more aggressive than a "standard" stock to some members of a jury. How many members probably depends very strongly on where you live, i.e. on local cultural attitudes towards guns. You're going to be better off in turkey-hunting and varminter country than you would be in urbanized areas or even deer-hunting country (since turkey and varmint guns are more likely to have pistol grip stocks than deer guns).

 

That said, let's get it clear I'm playing Devil's advocate here. if I were on the (grand) jury dealing with your case, I couldn't care less what you had bolted to your HD gun; you could have a fully TacStar/ATI-pimped-out Mossberg 500, and at most I'd question your sense in buying those brands (ATI and TacStar, that is; there's nothing wrong with Mossbergs). The crucial question, in my mind, would be whether the shootee gave you reason to fear for your (and your family's) physical well-being, and the fact that guy entered your house without your permission weighs significantly more heavily in my mind than the precise type and configuration of your HD weapons. ****, I'd be the a major hypocrite if I did, given that my own SNT is kitted out with a Nordic extension, Insight M3, Mesa 6-round sidesaddle and the attachments for an ERT sling; I'm not about to get holier-than-thou because I have ComfortTech stock rather than a pistol grip one.

 

Look, it's fairly obvious you want to keep the pistol grip stock. I'm not going to tell you you're wrong to do so. But this still comes down to the choice of whether you want your SNT to handle well, or be more "jury-proofed." Frankly, I think a ComforTech stock will be more jury-friendly than a pistol grip stock; however, I also think it will be easier to justify your choice of a pistol grip stock to a jury (using the arguments you've listed) than it will to justify your choice to install a sidesaddle. Especially given that you can buy a PG stock-equipped SNT "off the rack" (and maybe your friendly gun shop was out of ComforTech-equipped models that day) but installing a sidesaddle requires a deliberate effort on your part.

 

What I'm saying is, if you want to keep the PG stock, keep it; I think it has a certain amount of added liability in front of a jury than a ComforTech stock, but if it gives you a better chance to "judged by twelve, rather than be carried by six," go with the PG stock. I would advise you to make sure your lawyer is conversant with firearms, so that he knows how to undercut any BS claims the DA or plaintiff's counsel might make. Might I suggest you become a donating member of the 2nd Amendment Foundation? If you're a member, they can put you in touch with an attorney who knows local gun laws.

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Thanks for the responses.

 

Euromutt, the ideas you suggest are valid and have given me much to consider. Assuming I lose the side saddle and retain the mag extension/light, what would be your ideas regarding these accessories mounted to a shotty utilizing a PG stock? Personally, my arguments for the PG stock (if ever needed in court) might be as follows:

 

1) It allows for greater control of the shotgun. After all, given the powerful nature of the 12 g. shotty, control should be of paramount importance and could be considered a "safety" benefit.

 

2) It allows for, IMHO, greater defense against a possible disarm attempt. This is due to the solid grip it affords (ie. it puts the hand/wrist closer to center mass).

 

3) It allows for greater one-handed manipulation of the shotgun, should the strong side become injured/useless during an HD encounter.

 

4) Simply put, for me, its more ergonomic vs a "standard" style stock and thus, allows me to better maintain consistent, accurate hits.

 

Anyway, Im taking all opinions very seriously as you have all made very good points. Thanks again.

With all the input on what "can" happen, and what the DA can or will do, THE NUMBER ONE, MOST IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER!!!! Don't go looking for the ads for 1-800-we-sue-for-you. Hire a firearms defense lawyer, who makes a living defending firearms cases only. They have the background and experience, and the "professional" witnesses that can save your neck, they are expensive, but they can save your home, and everything else you own.

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and at most I'd question your sense in buying those brands (ATI and TacStar, that is; there's nothing wrong with Mossbergs).
Its funny that you mentioned TacStar as I just installed a +2 extension of theirs on my SNT. It wasnt my preference to do so, but the Nordic Components tube I had installed bit the dust (due to my mistake). Now Im finding it hard to acquire another +2 NC tube as they all seem to be out of stock right now.:(

 

So the TacStar, as lacking as it is when compared to NC, is going to have to do for now. So far, it seems to do what its designed to do. Once I get another NC tube, the TS piece will be relegated to "back-up" status.

 

BTW- I appreciate your comments and "hypotheticals." It made for interesting reading.

Edited by shotgunNoob
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my father has been a cop for 22 years and he has allways told me to remember... firstly the entruter is human and armed or not a gun in your direction is enough to get any sane person the **** out. secondlyyou dont get them with in the first 1-2 or mabey even 3 rounds your pretty much screwed. and when you are yworring about court he says this. i would much rather be juged by 12 then carried by 6. just some things for you to know. i say use the 12g as primary or teach your wife to use on if you have a wife.and dont leave a round in the chamber. this is because if you have an intruter and you cycle the gun it is a verry scarry sound for them to hear, my dad has never used his 12g on duty but pulled it out offten and uses thes same"tecnique" all of the sudden they comply. last he in all his years has only heard like 13 at night breakins when the family is there and thats over 22 years.

 

thats just my 76 cents

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