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Anyone know of a better Pistol Grip for the M4 Fixed Stock?


taylaboy

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I have already ordered the Charging Handle from Brownells, the Release Pad from GG&G, and the Titanium extended Magazine from compcarrier; promised myself I would stop there, but am now thinking about a better pistol grip, anyone have solid input or experience with this?

 

I live in Kalifornia, so we cant have the collapsible stock, so I must keep a fixed one on the weapon and just was wondering if there was any good ones out there that you guys have had experience with. So far, the only one I have found was on impactguns and was out of stock.

 

Any advice is always appreciated. I am just looking for something that can hold up in the elements and still be lightweight, rugged, and mold to the fist. Thanks gents.

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I just realized the impact guns grip was for the actual M4 Assualt Rifle......my mistake. Still searching for a pistol grip option if anyone is aware. thanks.

 

Are you replacing it just for the sake of replacing it?

 

It is fine as is and does not need replacing ... it is just a little long for my taste, but nobody makes a replacement fixed length pistol grip stock, so you can stop looking. It doesn't exist.

 

Your 3 upgrades should get you a very ergonomic, deneutered weapon ... your weapon will be a clone of my own ... Shoot it a lot and learn how you want to set it up ... with night sights or optics. My advice would be to skip a shell carrier, and to wait on changing your optic setup ... get used to the stock iron setup, and get a good idea of exactly what you want to change before you go spending coin on a setup you may later realize you don't like.

 

When you decide you want an optic, upgrade to the soon to be released proper 1913 rail for the m4, and go from there ... I'd suggest an Aimpoint T1 in a larue low profile mount ... but it needs the new rail to work properly. You may not even want an optic, what do I know ...

 

m4current-small.jpg

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Totally agree with Duggan about the stock. It's a fantastic stock already and I'd strongly suggest that you keep the Benelli stock on the gun.

 

As far as optics go, I was considering adding a red dot sight of some kind but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it would solve a nonexistent problem. I'd spend the money on rounds to practice with instead and master the ghost rings.

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Totally agree with Duggan about the stock. It's a fantastic stock already and I'd strongly suggest that you keep the Benelli stock on the gun.

 

As far as optics go, I was considering adding a red dot sight of some kind but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it would solve a nonexistent problem. I'd spend the money on rounds to practice with instead and master the ghost rings.

 

I personally think the red-dot is a good idea, which is why I am buying Kip's rail when it comes out (It is a sure deal, and I have badgered the poor man for info on it enough that I am pretty much required to buy it, lol) and mounting an Aimpoint T1 or Trijicon RMR on it (leaning heavily to the T1).

 

The red-dot is much faster than ghost rings especially when using slugs.

 

An aftermarket pistol-grip is pointless. Stick with the stock stock, even though it may be a wee long.

 

On another note, Duggan, how hard was installing your GGG bolt release? Is it the whole thing, or do you have to modify the stock one to replace the button? How has it held up, IIRC I have heard of people saying the screw holding the pad in place un-screws randomly or something back when I was considering one for my old M4.

 

Also, do you too have the titanium bolt knob? I have heard of other bolt knobs bending and recall you mentioning that you bent/broke one. Story on that?

Edited by Unobtanium
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okay, that is very sound advice so I will just lose the new pistol grip idea. Thanks guys.

 

Regarding the new Rail System: When is that expected to be available? What is the real difference? I have read postings on here about what people consider a "proper" rail. Is it safe to assume those folks are correct and the stock rail is not the best?

 

The only thing I plan on putting on there is a red dot reflex just for shits and giggles, but I plan on sticking with the iron's for at least a year until I am an absolute surgeon with every type of ammo I can find.

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okay, that is very sound advice so I will just lose the new pistol grip idea. Thanks guys.

 

Regarding the new Rail System: When is that expected to be available? What is the real difference? I have read postings on here about what people consider a "proper" rail. Is it safe to assume those folks are correct and the stock rail is not the best?

 

The only thing I plan on putting on there is a red dot reflex just for shits and giggles, but I plan on sticking with the iron's for at least a year until I am an absolute surgeon with every type of ammo I can find.

 

Yeah...pretty much.

 

Try running an expensive QD mount on it like we have. Then you can be one of the first-hand informed, lol.

 

I estimate 6-8wks on te new rail from my conversations with Kip. He should have them machined in 4-5 wks + ano-time.

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I personally think the red-dot is a good idea, which is why I am buying Kip's rail when it comes out (It is a sure deal, and I have badgered the poor man for info on it enough that I am pretty much required to buy it, lol) and mounting an Aimpoint T1 or Trijicon RMR on it (leaning heavily to the T1).

 

The red-dot is much faster than ghost rings especially when using slugs.

 

An aftermarket pistol-grip is pointless. Stick with the stock stock, even though it may be a wee long.

 

On another note, Duggan, how hard was installing your GGG bolt release? Is it the whole thing, or do you have to modify the stock one to replace the button? How has it held up, IIRC I have heard of people saying the screw holding the pad in place un-screws randomly or something back when I was considering one for my old M4.

 

Also, do you too have the titanium bolt knob? I have heard of other bolt knobs bending and recall you mentioning that you bent/broke one. Story on that?

 

The GG&G bolt release is a pain in the ass to install (basically takes 4 hands), but it's totally worth it. It has held up 100%. When I first installed it I didn't loctite it down (it told me to, I didn't listen) and the screw clamping the pad to the internal arm thing broke free, and the pad started to be loose. A little red loctite solved that problem, and it since has not come off. It really is a great upgrade to the weapon, so much faster and easier to manipulate the BCG quickly ...

 

The titanium bolt handle yes, I have it, it's badass, the best on the market ... and I've had them all.

 

The GG&G bolt handle is crap, avoid at all costs IMO ... it isn't anti rotational, it's borderline too big and it's made of weak metal that bends easily.

 

The titanium one is solid as the proverbial brick shithouse, is diamondblack coated, and is anti-rotational ... which really does make a big difference as far as grasping and charging the weapon.

 

handles03t.jpg

Edited by Duggan
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okay, that is very sound advice so I will just lose the new pistol grip idea. Thanks guys.

 

Regarding the new Rail System: When is that expected to be available? What is the real difference? I have read postings on here about what people consider a "proper" rail. Is it safe to assume those folks are correct and the stock rail is not the best?

 

The only thing I plan on putting on there is a red dot reflex just for shits and giggles, but I plan on sticking with the iron's for at least a year until I am an absolute surgeon with every type of ammo I can find.

 

Here is the new rail thread ... Yes, the stock rail sucks, go see my photos ...

 

http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17908&highlight=m4+rail

 

And I'm glad you've decided to stick to the irons for awhile ... it will make you much better at handling your m4 than if you were to only learn how to use and depend on an optic ...

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Here is the new rail thread ... Yes, the stock rail sucks, go see my photos ...

 

http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17908&highlight=m4+rail

 

And I'm glad you've decided to stick to the irons for awhile ... it will make you much better at handling your m4 than if you were to only learn how to use and depend on an optic ...

 

When I was a kid my Dad would not allow me to use a scope. I got a scope when I was a teenager.

 

I can shoot very accurately and among my friends I do not know anyone who can out-shoot me that is not significantly more experienced. Irons or glass. I attribute this to my father making me properly learn the basics. Irons. Use them. Master them. Never forget them. They are bomb-proof. All else is supplemental.

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We tested many of the "low" mounts out there including LaRue. Although they were good mounts, all of them raised the sight enough that a proper cheek weld was lost with the standard stock. That said, we tested Aimpoints own LRP, a little known accessory ($32) that replaces the screw system on the H1 / T1 systems that we have gone with. This is the lowest possible combination and works very well in "field" use. I will try to post a picture later, but for now here is what the system consists of.

 

Mg

 

yhst-99971461949815_2050_823090

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We tested many of the "low" mounts out there including LaRue. Although they were good mounts, all of them raised the sight enough that a proper cheek weld was lost with the standard stock. That said, we tested Aimpoints own LRP, a little known accessory ($32) that replaces the screw system on the H1 / T1 systems that we have gone with. This is the lowest possible combination and works very well in "field" use. I will try to post a picture later, but for now here is what the system consists of.

 

Mg

 

yhst-99971461949815_2050_823090

 

 

I too have looked into this unit.

 

Concerns of mine:

 

Does it have repeat zero?

 

Does the pressure on the screw cause stretching of said screw?

 

Does AIMPOINT even manufacture it? I wager that they buy it from someone else.

 

The fact that the lever is a caste part bodes not well based on tonnes of broken ARMS levers littering most military ranges.

 

ETA: Also, when I pick up the phone to call LaRue...I get a knowledgeable LaRue employee. Not a voice mail. not a message machine, not empty promises to call back from a tape recorder.

 

*They picked up their phone :) *

Edited by Unobtanium
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I too have looked into this unit.

 

Concerns of mine:

 

Does it have repeat zero?

 

Does the pressure on the screw cause stretching of said screw?

 

Does AIMPOINT even manufacture it? I wager that they buy it from someone else.

 

The fact that the lever is a caste part bodes not well based on tonnes of broken ARMS levers littering most military ranges.

 

Repeats Zero without a problem.

 

No sign of screw or lever failure, on my duty weapon for 2 months, at least 100rds fired. I'm betting my life on it right now.

 

I don't really care who manufacturers it.

 

Never broke a cast ARMS lever and have been on a great share of Military ranges, both square and live, never saw a ton of levers.

 

Mg

 

DSC007381.JPG

 

 

DSC007352.JPG

Edited by Mike Grasso
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Repeats Zero without a problem.

 

No sign of screw or lever failure, on my duty weapon for 2 months, at least 100rds fired. I'm betting my life on it right now.

 

I don't really care who manufacturers it.

 

Never broke a cast ARMS lever and have been on a great share of Military ranges, both square and live, never saw a ton of levers.

 

Mg

 

 

 

 

 

So you have removed/replaced this optic several times with no sign of POI changing when using slugs?

 

It holds up reliably to 3" slugs (what killed my LaRue in a dozen rounds w/stock rail?

 

I know you have handled LaRue (and apparently ARMS) mounts. How does this mount "Feel" in comparison. Is it on the same level of well-oiled-maching type quality?

 

ETA: Correct, spelling is not my forte. I much prefer the spoken english language to the written.

 

From what I understand, you adjust the lever by tightening/loosening the "nut" on the other side of the mount and then lok-titing it in place after you find where it belongs?

 

The design of this mount is VERY appealing, my concern is over the quality/durability/repeatability.

 

*ETA: You also said "We" every time you referred to an experience with the LRP. I take this to mean your unit/department/whatever. Can I infer by this that there are multiple users that you communicate with who rely on this unit and who also have no issue with durability/zero-repeatability/anything else?

Edited by Unobtanium
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So you have removed/replaced this optic several times with no sign of POI changing when using slugs?

 

It holds up reliably to 3" slugs (what killed my LaRue in a dozen rounds w/stock rail?

 

I know you have handled LaRue (and apparently ARMS) mounts. How does this mount "Feel" in comparison. Is it on the same level of well-oiled-maching type quality?

 

ETA: Correct, spelling is not my forte. I much prefer the spoken english language to the written.

 

From what I understand, you adjust the lever by tightening/loosening the "nut" on the other side of the mount and then lok-titing it in place after you find where it belongs?

 

The design of this mount is VERY appealing, my concern is over the quality/durability/repeatability.

 

Don't take any offense to the following but,

 

Why do you care about zero if removed? Only an amateur would rely on an optical sight that was removed and then reinstated to take a shot that would save a life. The main reason the lever is there is to get rid of the sight if it fails, thus giving you unencumbered access to your iron sights. Any time you reinstall a sight, optical or iron, your zero should be checked prior to use. Even the best can be off an inch or more at 100 yards, thats unacceptable if the target is holding your child.

 

I have not fired it with 3" slugs. The Slugs we use are more than enough at the proven ranges.

 

The setup is as you stated. Until someone comes out with a lower sight that allows co-witness, this is what I'll use.

 

Mg

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Don't take any offense to the following but,

 

Why do you care about zero if removed? Only an amateur would rely on an optical sight that was removed and then reinstated to take a shot that would save a life. The main reason the lever is there is to get rid of the sight if it fails, thus giving you unencumbered access to your iron sights. Any time you reinstall a sight, optical or iron, your zero should be checked prior to use. Even the best can be off an inch or more at 100 yards, thats unacceptable if the target is holding your child.

 

I have not fired it with 3" slugs. The Slugs we use are more than enough at the proven ranges.

 

The setup is as you stated. Until someone comes out with a lower sight that allows co-witness, this is what I'll use.

 

Mg

 

No offense taken.

 

LaRue mounts have been tested with 600+ rounds down-range with the mount being removed no less than 1 time each 10-shot group. At the end of the day, I think it was off by less than 1/2MOA. I can find the exact test if you wish to see it.

 

Would I take a shot at a person holding a baby at gunpoint if I had removed my QD optic and not re-zeroed it? No. No I would not.

 

Would I perhapse remove my optic and then replace it and take a shot at a crow or something? Probably so.

 

For when TSHTF, I agree with you 100% on the purpose of QD, but understand that my M4 is for range/recreational use as well. This does not mean I skimp on my equipment, just that it is not 100% for "serious" work.

 

You as well as several other "Professionals" have recommended the LRP mount. Noone has said anything bad about it. It is only $30. I am tempted to try it out. Here in a week or two after my roommate hits me back for some rent money, I will pick up a T1 and an LRP mount.

 

One last question, have you noticed that the round bar interfacing with the stubs on the Benelli style rail has caused any abnormal wear on the rail or bar?

 

ETA: Co-witness? Do you mean "until someone comes out with a lower mount that THEN allows co-witness, or that ALSO allows it? I was under the impression that a T1 in this mount would NOT co-witness on a Benelli M4. Am I wrong?

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LaRue mounts have been tested with 600+ rounds down-range with the mount being removed no less than 1 time each 10-shot group. At the end of the day, I think it was off by less than 1/2MOA. I can find the exact test if you wish to see it.

 

Keep in mind what we're talking about here. If you're sticking this thing on a shotgun (w/ 18-inch barrel) for use with slugs, you're going to be hard-pressed to get better than 4 MOA groups to begin with. How much accuracy are you really able to lose on top of that by removing/remounting your sight? Probably not much. IMO, any properly secure mount is going to keep you within 4 MOA. If it isn't able to repeat that, it wouldn't be sold by any reputable retailer/manufacturer.

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No the H1/T1 does not co-witness either, i'll look at whatever comes out if it does co-witness but I don't think we'll see that.

 

I have not seen any deforming yet, but, I do not regulary remove the sight. Again, I really have a more specific use for the removal.

 

I wish there was a cheekpiece offered like the ones on some of the other Benelli shotguns, it would raise your weld and then the LaRue would be on my weapon, they make an outstanding mount.

 

Mg

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No the H1/T1 does not co-witness either, i'll look at whatever comes out if it does co-witness but I don't think we'll see that.

 

I have not seen any deforming yet, but, I do not regulary remove the sight. Again, I really have a more specific use for the removal.

 

I wish there was a cheekpiece offered like the ones on some of the other Benelli shotguns, it would raise your weld and then the LaRue would be on my weapon, they make an outstanding mount.

 

Mg

 

Yes, it would be nice if the cheek weld could be modified, I agree. However, I will stick with the LaRue even if it causes me to need to modify my cheek weld a bit on my part.

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Guest cleefurd

I did not particularly care for the grip either... European lines I guess. But then I pryed it off the plastic tange it slips onto to see what could be done about it, and promptly put it back on with a whole new perspective of it. Given that the ergonomics of it are acceptible (angle, circumference, etc) the bland appearance and slightly Frankenstein'ish look waned when I realized how well the INSIDE had been thought out. It has ribbed chambers that must be given some of the credit for why no one ever complains about their wrists being pummelled during extended one handed firing excersizes. In the end it would appear that ANY grip designed which maintained this feature... would wind up looking remarkably similar when the tool and die maker turned off the lights.

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Yo, I read the article about LAPD getting M4's in Guns and Ammo's Combat Arms magazine. The writer used a model (LAPD's) with a prototype MESA Tactical shorter LOP fixed pistol grip stock. I called MESA and talked to a guy there this morning. He said I was the second person who called and that they had just made a few protos for LAPD but have heard nothing back from LAPD concerning the protos and did not know when they would be commercially available.

 

BUT HE DID SAY THEY WOULD BE AVAILABLE. I'M ******* JUICED! **** YEAAAAA!!!!!!

 

\_/(>

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Yo, I read the article about LAPD getting M4's in Guns and Ammo's Combat Arms magazine. The writer used a model (LAPD's) with a prototype MESA Tactical shorter LOP fixed pistol grip stock. I called MESA and talked to a guy there this morning. He said I was the second person who called and that they had just made a few protos for LAPD but have heard nothing back from LAPD concerning the protos and did not know when they would be commercially available.

 

BUT HE DID SAY THEY WOULD BE AVAILABLE. I'M ******* JUICED! **** YEAAAAA!!!!!!

 

\_/(>

 

Yea, just like they were anxious to complete the currently still vaporware FCAM back in 2006 ...

 

http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9123&highlight=mesa+rail&page=12

 

I wouldn't hold my breath on Mesa getting any new product to market ... not that they are a bad company, or that it's even their fault, I am just saying that they have proven to be exceptionally slow.

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