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M2 cycling issue


jed1894

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I didn't want to highjack someone's thread by asking my questions. 'Remarkable' has already been very helpful, but I wanted to ask something very specific about my cycling issue. Just another note, I've tried the test 'Remarkable' suggested about putting a shell in the chamber and turning it upside down to see if it would fall out. Everything is okay there.

 

First of all, I am waiting on a new mag spring that may solve the problem. I am also waiting on a new carrier latch and spring from Benelli that may also solve the problem. However, I am trying to figure out what actually makes this gun cycle. Here's the question/my problem:

 

As I have said in another post, my 3rd round (one in the hole and 2 in the mag)--in other words the last round out of the tube--the shell will sometimes stop/jam on top of the carrier. It just sits there. I can lightly bump it or tap it from the bottom and it will then chamber. It will do the same thing if only one round is in the magazine.

 

So, something is keeping it from loading in the chamber. What would cause it not to load from the carrier? Would a weak mag spring do this? How? Would a weak/dirty recoil spring do this? How? Could it be the carrier latch? How?

 

Also, keep in mind. This is a newer gun. It has done this since new. It's now about 3 years old with about 7 flats of heavy load shells through it.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

jed

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Jed, I appreciate the problem. We may be in the same boat. When yours fails, has the shell on the carrier/lifter moved clear back to the point where the cartridge head is resting on the flat on the forward side of the trigger assembly? If so, we are different. But if yours hangs maybe a half inch from that point - before it gets past the spring tension applied on the cartridge by the magazine release lever - we are the same. I have to pry the shell back about a quarter inch (past the point where the mag release lever has tension on it) before things free up and the shell will chamber.

At any rate, I'll be watching your thread with interest. I sent Remarkable a couple photos, and will be interested in what he might have to offer.

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As I have said in another post, my 3rd round (one in the hole and 2 in the mag)--in other words the last round out of the tube--the shell will sometimes stop/jam on top of the carrier. It just sits there. I can lightly bump it or tap it from the bottom and it will then chamber. It will do the same thing if only one round is in the magazine.

 

So, something is keeping it from loading in the chamber. What would cause it not to load from the carrier? Would a weak mag spring do this? How? Would a weak/dirty recoil spring do this? How? Could it be the carrier latch? How?

 

Let's break down what you told us. Your first shell that you inserted into the magazine is the shell that is causing you the problem. That is a sure sign of a spring that is out of OEM tolerance or the magazine tube is dirty. Here is why: the spring rate when making application to the final shell in your loaded magazine will place the spring near it's lowest amount of force because the coils at that point are the most relaxed.

 

Take a look at the new Vinci - look how small the recoild spring is in that gun. You may think how can that little spring replace the recoild spring that is found in a SBE or M2. The reality is because when working with spring torsion rates the smaller the spring the easier it is to FIND and HOLD the exact tolerance that is required to operate, in the case the enertia recoild system.

 

A worm carrier latch will sometimes let more that one shells out of the magazine. The Carrier Latch on a M1 has been redesigned. I just replaced a Carrier latch on a clients 10 year old M1. In addition I replaced the magazine spring and follower with a Sure Cycle Magazine Kit. Also replaced in this gun was a Wolff 25% increase spring and a Wolff hammer spring. This package revived a ten year old M1 to like new condition.

 

The carrier latch is very simply to replace by driving the Carrier Latch pin from the bottom with a fine drift punch.

 

I'm going to say it again - the shell issue as described is a major cause of cycling issues. I have found this problem increasing. Lets repeat - if every shell you place in your gun does not fall into and out of the chamber area freely - you are changing a dynamic of the Benelli enertia recoil system.

 

I will be looking forward to the photo's.

 

[email protected]

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As I have said in another post, my 3rd round (one in the hole and 2 in the mag)--in other words the last round out of the tube--the shell will sometimes stop/jam on top of the carrier. It just sits there. I can lightly bump it or tap it from the bottom and it will then chamber. It will do the same thing if only one round is in the magazine.

 

So, something is keeping it from loading in the chamber. What would cause it not to load from the carrier? Would a weak mag spring do this? How? Would a weak/dirty recoil spring do this? How? Could it be the carrier latch? How?

 

Let me ask you this, by jamming on the top of the carrier do you mean the shell is on the carrier and the carrier is still down, or has the carrier lifted the shell and thats when the thing stops?

 

Here is a picture of just after I pull the trigger where the last round in the mag tube has been thrown onto the carrier:

 

100_0457.jpg

 

As you can see the round is clear of the mag tube and ready to be lifted. After I pull the bolt back the "fired" round is ejected and the new round is lifted just after I let the bolt travel forward a tiny bit. Now sometimes I can get the gun to jam like this:

 

100_0458.jpg

 

Where the shell is ready to be loaded and the carrier is up but the bolt is snagged. I can get the round to chamber if I either tap forward on the charging handle or push down slightly on the carrier (holding the bolt back so my fingers don't get smashed naturally). This jam never happens in real life (actually shooting) but I thought if your jam looked like this you might want to consider the bolt. The notches on the bottom of the bolt govern what the carrier does and if one of those is off I can see how you might have chambering issues even if your chamber is spotless.

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Thanks for the help.....my jam looks like the first picture in the last post. The carrier is down and shell is sitting on top.

 

The shell is also clear of the mag tube. In my case, a small tap is all that's needed to get it to chamber.

 

 

One other thing.....I received a new spring (Wolfe) and SS follower today in the mail. Unless something comes up, I'll be in the field today hunting. I'll post the results.

 

jed

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As I have said in another post, my 3rd round (one in the hole and 2 in the mag)--in other words the last round out of the tube--the shell will sometimes stop/jam on top of the carrier. It just sits there. I can lightly bump it or tap it from the bottom and it will then chamber. It will do the same thing if only one round is in the magazine.

 

So, something is keeping it from loading in the chamber. What would cause it not to load from the carrier? Would a weak mag spring do this? How? Would a weak/dirty recoil spring do this? How? Could it be the carrier latch? How?

 

Let's break down what you told us. Your first shell that you inserted into the magazine is the shell that is causing you the problem. That is a sure sign of a spring that is out of OEM tolerance or the magazine tube is dirty. Here is why: the spring rate when making application to the final shell in your loaded magazine will place the spring near it's lowest amount of force because the coils at that point are the most relaxed.

 

Take a look at the new Vinci - look how small the recoild spring is in that gun. You may think how can that little spring replace the recoild spring that is found in a SBE or M2. The reality is because when working with spring torsion rates the smaller the spring the easier it is to FIND and HOLD the exact tolerance that is required to operate, in the case the enertia recoild system.

 

A worm carrier latch will sometimes let more that one shells out of the magazine. The Carrier Latch on a M1 has been redesigned. I just replaced a Carrier latch on a clients 10 year old M1. In addition I replaced the magazine spring and follower with a Sure Cycle Magazine Kit. Also replaced in this gun was a Wolff 25% increase spring and a Wolff hammer spring. This package revived a ten year old M1 to like new condition.

 

The carrier latch is very simply to replace by driving the Carrier Latch pin from the bottom with a fine drift punch.

 

I'm going to say it again - the shell issue as described is a major cause of cycling issues. I have found this problem increasing. Lets repeat - if every shell you place in your gun does not fall into and out of the chamber area freely - you are changing a dynamic of the Benelli enertia recoil system.

 

I will be looking forward to the photo's.

 

[email protected]

 

The more I think about your post, the more I think it has to be the mag spring. Because this gun has never jammed on the 2nd shot when 3 shells were loaded from the beginning. It has always been the 3rd shot (the last one in the magazine). If it were the carrier latch, recoil spring or something else, it would jam on the 2nd shot just as often, correct?

 

jed

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The more I think about your post, the more I think it has to be the mag spring. Because this gun has never jammed on the 2nd shot when 3 shells were loaded from the beginning. It has always been the 3rd shot (the last one in the magazine). If it were the carrier latch, recoil spring or something else, it would jam on the 2nd shot just as often, correct?

 

Jed,

 

I think you are making very good progress understanding the inertia system. Lets complete the cause & effect a bit further and break down your discovery. This will help you become a Benelli pro. Your discovery with the final shell is critical. Great insights to note these effects. The cause would be a possible weak spring rate which would then slow the entry of the final shell to the elevator which then raises your shell into the path of the bolt which then forces it into the chamber. I have replaced a few elevator springs as well in various SBE and M1's. The cleaning of the magazine tube is critical as well because you are changing the dynamic of the magazine spring because it would then be pushing against resistance of residue or gummed up lube.

 

This is a great forum to learn. I wish someone instructed me about the dynamics of the Benelli Inertia Recoil System. When I imported one of the first Montefeltro's to the US I never even received a manual. When manuals first came out nothing was mentioned about the Magazine or Recoil Spring. Fact is the first Montefeltro did not even have a recoil tube assembly nut to get access to the recoil spring. Benelli has come along way in making the gun maint. friendly.

 

I realy hope I'm helping you here and your gaining insights on the premier autoloading shotgun.

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The more I think about your post, the more I think it has to be the mag spring. Because this gun has never jammed on the 2nd shot when 3 shells were loaded from the beginning. It has always been the 3rd shot (the last one in the magazine). If it were the carrier latch, recoil spring or something else, it would jam on the 2nd shot just as often, correct?

 

Jed,

 

I think you are making very good progress understanding the inertia system. Lets complete the cause & effect a bit further and break down your discovery. This will help you become a Benelli pro. Your discovery with the final shell is critical. Great insights to note these effects. The cause would be a possible weak spring rate which would then slow the entry of the final shell to the elevator which then raises your shell into the path of the bolt which then forces it into the chamber. I have replaced a few elevator springs as well in various SBE and M1's. The cleaning of the magazine tube is critical as well because you are changing the dynamic of the magazine spring because it would then be pushing against resistance of residue or gummed up lube.

 

This is a great forum to learn. I wish someone instructed me about the dynamics of the Benelli Inertia Recoil System. When I imported one of the first Montefeltro's to the US I never even received a manual. When manuals first came out nothing was mentioned about the Magazine or Recoil Spring. Fact is the first Montefeltro did not even have a recoil tube assembly nut to get access to the recoil spring. Benelli has come along way in making the gun maint. friendly.

 

I realy hope I'm helping you here and your gaining insights on the premier autoloading shotgun.

 

You are helping me very much. Thanks for insight. I got my new spring in yesterday, but I did not make it to field with all the football on TV. I will be there today with the new spring, new SS follower and a clean tube. I'll let you know tonight if that was the problem. If not, I have a carrier latch and spring on the way as well from Benelli. If you will, you can help with the installation.

 

thanks again.....jed

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Jed,

 

That's great. Of course I can help you with your Carrier Latch. I'm sure the part you ordered from Brownell is the exact part number that your M2 came with. This part is a redesign since the M1. You mentioned you ordered a follower as well. The part was changed on the M2, i'm not so sure for the better. If you look at the Sure Cycle MAGAZINE kit, they have a Magazine Upgrade System for most Benelli 12 gauge shotguns. Includes a stainless steel magazine spring, red anodized aluminum follower and 3-shot plug.

This kit provide a Stainless Spring a Anodized follower and a anodized plug. The anodized parts are very precise and are very well made. I personally have these in my hunting guns primarily because I was going to purchase a new spring anyway and I really like the anodized plug.

 

When replacing the carrier latch you will need a fine drift punch to drive the carrier latch pin from the bottom through the top. When installing the new Latch and pin if you purchase one you will need to start the latch pin from the bottom driving the pin into position. This may require some a helper to hold the latch into position. Driving the pin to far into the receiver which will interfere with the bolt assembly movement.

 

Please let me know if you need some additional guidance.

 

[email protected]

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Jed,

 

That's great. Of course I can help you with your Carrier Latch. I'm sure the part you ordered from Brownell is the exact part number that your M2 came with. This part is a redesign since the M1. You mentioned you ordered a follower as well. The part was changed on the M2, i'm not so sure for the better. If you look at the Sure Cycle MAGAZINE kit, they have a Magazine Upgrade System for most Benelli 12 gauge shotguns. Includes a stainless steel magazine spring, red anodized aluminum follower and 3-shot plug.

This kit provide a Stainless Spring a Anodized follower and a anodized plug. The anodized parts are very precise and are very well made. I personally have these in my hunting guns primarily because I was going to purchase a new spring anyway and I really like the anodized plug.

 

When replacing the carrier latch you will need a fine drift punch to drive the carrier latch pin from the bottom through the top. When installing the new Latch and pin if you purchase one you will need to start the latch pin from the bottom driving the pin into position. This may require some a helper to hold the latch into position. Driving the pin to far into the receiver which will interfere with the bolt assembly movement.

 

Please let me know if you need some additional guidance.

 

[email protected]

 

Well, just got back from the field...bad news: the new spring and follower did not work. Just to recap, I ordered the spring from gunsprings.com (25% more power). The spring is about a foot longer than the factory spring. It ejected the shells very good. The follower is a SS from Brownells (cost over $20).

 

So, it appears I have another problem. I took a couple photos of the jam and I'll post here if I can figure out how to do it.

 

The carrier latch and spring are on the way, but I'm not sure that's that problem either unless the carrier was bad from the factory because it's been doing this since new.

 

So, what do I have left?

 

Stand by for the photographs....

 

jed

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Click on the 5th icon from the right above the reply box (yellow square that looks like it has a little black mountain at the bottom) that will bring up a widow and you simply paste the URL address of the photo in.

(you need to have the photo uploaded on a sharing site like Photo Bucket)

 

Later,

Hookster :)

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Mag spring. Inertia works to help cycle the gun just as well as it works to keep the shells from coming out of the magazine.

 

Not sure what you mean. With the new mag spring I installed, the shells are kicking out very good now. Something is keeping the carrier from kicking up the shell into the chamber.

 

jed

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Jed,

Well, just got back from the field...bad news: the new spring and follower did not work. Just to recap, I ordered the spring from gunsprings.com (25% more power). The spring is about a foot longer than the factory spring. It ejected the shells very good. The follower is a SS from Brownells (cost over $20).

 

So, it appears I have another problem. I took a couple photos of the jam and I'll post here if I can figure out how to do it.

 

The carrier latch and spring are on the way, but I'm not sure that's that problem either unless the carrier was bad from the factory because it's been doing this since new.

 

So, what do I have left?

 

The photo you show. Is this the photo of the final shell being kicked out of the magazine tube? The spring should be slamming the shell to the back of the elevator. You did not mention if during your experiment today that the final shell seems to be the issue still.

 

Here is a couple suggestions:

 

*Install your Carrier Latch when you get it.

 

* Have someone else shoot this gun

 

* Examine your trigger group and look for bends in the elevator or is something binding the elevator spring. (The Stoegger P350 elevator bends quite easily)

 

* Do you know anyone else with a M2. If you do ask to use thier trigger group in your gun

 

* Did you go thru your shells and make sure every shell you install in the magazine falls in and out of the chamber freely

 

* It sound like your elevator is nor raising for whatever reason on your final shot. This does not make sense the elevator performs well during your other shots. You may want to take the plug out and run a sequence of four shells.

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Jed,

Well, just got back from the field...bad news: the new spring and follower did not work. Just to recap, I ordered the spring from gunsprings.com (25% more power). The spring is about a foot longer than the factory spring. It ejected the shells very good. The follower is a SS from Brownells (cost over $20).

 

So, it appears I have another problem. I took a couple photos of the jam and I'll post here if I can figure out how to do it.

 

The carrier latch and spring are on the way, but I'm not sure that's that problem either unless the carrier was bad from the factory because it's been doing this since new.

 

So, what do I have left?

 

The photo you show. Is this the photo of the final shell being kicked out of the magazine tube? The spring should be slamming the shell to the back of the elevator. You did not mention if during your experiment today that the final shell seems to be the issue still.

 

Here is a couple suggestions:

 

*Install your Carrier Latch when you get it.

 

* Have someone else shoot this gun

 

* Examine your trigger group and look for bends in the elevator or is something binding the elevator spring. (The Stoegger P350 elevator bends quite easily)

 

* Do you know anyone else with a M2. If you do ask to use thier trigger group in your gun

 

* Did you go thru your shells and make sure every shell you install in the magazine falls in and out of the chamber freely

 

* It sound like your elevator is nor raising for whatever reason on your final shot. This does not make sense the elevator performs well during your other shots. You may want to take the plug out and run a sequence of four shells.

 

Yes, it's the same problem as before (3rd shell stuck on carrier).

 

Had someone shoot it in the past when I was very frustrated with. Did the same thing.

 

No one close with another M2 to try trigger group.

 

I examined the shells the night before (based on your suggestion).

 

I tend to agree with you about the elevator. Something is keeping it from pushing the shell up into the chamber. But it is very odd that only happens on the last shell in the mag tube. The new mag spring is kicking the shells good.

 

How much oil is needed on the elevator section of the trigger group? I may not be oiling it enough.

 

Another question about the carrier latch and spring. How could the carrier latch stop the carrier from pushing the shell into the chamber?

 

thanks, jed

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Hey Remarkable, I guess an easier way to do this would be to list everything that could cause the carrier not to rise and start eliminating each one by one. I could add the recoil spring to the list, but not sure if that would keep the carrier from feeding the round. What do you think?

 

jed

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Something is keeping your ELEVATOR from raising when there is no shell in the magazine.

 

Install your new Carrier Latch when it arrives.

 

If the Carrier latch does not help it would be wise to use another trigger group in your gun. You could also send your trigger group to Benelli for a inspection with a explaination of your findings.

 

These thing are hard to diagnose over the Internet when I can't see the gun.

 

 

I have to give you credit for being persistent.

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Jed and Remarkable. My gun periodically stops with the jam looking just like Jeds. Posted identical picture on the other thread (M2 Feeding Failure). The reason that the elevator cannot lift is because where the cartridge stops - it has the back end of the carrier latch pressed toward the side of the receiver. This precludes the carrier latch from properly engaging the front of the cartridge drop lever - which in turn prevents the carrier from lifting and the bolt closing. Jed says he can make it work by bumping the carrier. I have to push the cartridge back clear of the carrier lever. It is conceivable that Jed is popping the cartridge up and out of the way of the carrier lever, allowing things to function.

 

Now, why is the cartridge stopping at the location illustrated by both Jed and I?? Here is a list as suggested by an earlier post: 1)Logically, one would be suspicious of the magazine spring's strength. Jed tested that without getting a fix. 2) Shell head diameter dimensions might be a problem. 3) To much tension in the carrier latch spring might serve to capture the shell and cause the problem.

I'm beginning to think #3 is a candidate problem in my case, perhaps aggravated by weakening mag. springs and/or dirty magazine tube in order to explain why it is a problem which has shown up after time and gunsmoke.

More ideas???

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Eh, I dunno, did not read the part that the mag-spring didn't fix it. I guess you should have called Benelli when it was new instead of waiting 3 years to decide you didn't like it malfunctioning. Sounds like if the new elevator and spring don't work, this may be a real pain to track down.

 

Not sure if you're addressing me, but if you are, I did send it back to Benelli 4 days after I bought it. I also sent it back the dealer 3 times. Benelli told me it needed breaking in and to shoot heavy loads, which I have been doing for 3 years. The dealer told me the same. So, I figure shooting heavy loads for 3 years has been enough break in for this gun. Now I want it fixed and it looks like I am going to have to fix it myself. I would just sell it, but I don't want to put this problem on someone else.

 

jed

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How are you guys lubing the weapon? The rails the carrier rides on should be well-lubed. I lube my Benelli M4 like I do my ARs. The best, slickest lube I have found, hands down is LaRue's MG Lube. CLP will work well though in its stead.

 

I've tried several kinds with different amounts. I've try to run it dry; I've sprayed CLP in it like was spraying a wasp nest; I've used the oil that came with it; etc. Oiling the rails is not an issue for me. Now, oiling a particular spring/part near the carrier may be something else. I usually oil the trigger group and wipe off the excess.

 

jed

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