jed1894 Posted December 7, 2009 Author Share Posted December 7, 2009 Here's something to ponder: My problem only occurs on the 3rd round. It has NEVER jammed on the 2nd shot with another round still in the tube. So, what part of the gun (carrier latch) works differently when a round is still in the mag? Since the carrier latch is still holding a round in the mag, does this stop the 2nd shot from jamming? Or is there no difference in the carrier latch position from the 2nd to 3rd shot? jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed1894 Posted December 7, 2009 Author Share Posted December 7, 2009 One other thing: If the recoil spring is not lubed and/or strong, will this keep the 3rd round from loading? Could a non-lubed or bad spring/plunger have an effect on a round loading from on top of the carrier? Reason I ask: I do not lube the recoil spring very much. I usually just wipe the plunger with an oily rag. Someone else told me to shoot some oil down the recoil tube and try that. jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed1894 Posted December 7, 2009 Author Share Posted December 7, 2009 Something is keeping your ELEVATOR from raising when there is no shell in the magazine. Install your new Carrier Latch when it arrives. If the Carrier latch does not help it would be wise to use another trigger group in your gun. You could also send your trigger group to Benelli for a inspection with a explaination of your findings. These thing are hard to diagnose over the Internet when I can't see the gun. I have to give you credit for being persistent. You have no idea. Persistent is not the word. Obsessed! I just got off the phone with Benelli. I'm sure they're tired of hearing my name up there. Got a new trigger assemby coming (the whole thing intact) in case the other stuff does not work. I had to give them a credit card number until I sent the old one back. Before it's over I'll rebuild this gun. Got to give Benelli credit....they have sent everything I've asked for at no cost (gun still under warranty). jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed1894 Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 Well, the new trigger assy didn't do the trick. It's still jamming on the 3rd shot as I described above. The carrier latch arrived and it's the next thing to go in. There is something keeping the carrier/elevator from lifting the last round into the chamber. The bolt is locked back and the only way I can get it to chamber is tapping the carrier/elevator from underneath. Is it possible that the carrier latch spring is too stiff? Maybe a break-in issue still? Seems a strange since the gun is 3 years old now and I've shot it a bunch. Another thing I noticed (if I'm repeating myself, I apoligize): When pulling the bolt back and letting go while empty, I noticed that when the bolt is all the way back, it almost wants to stop. There is a slight hesitation that I can feel in the bolt handle. Something is catching it just a tad, unless this is normal. thanks, jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cksh8me Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Do you have a pistol grip stock? What is the Dram equivalent on your shells? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed1894 Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 Do you have a pistol grip stock? What is the Dram equivalent on your shells? No pistol grip stock. I usually shoot 3 1/4 dram. Been doing that since new. jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agm65ccip Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Well with replacing the mag spring and trigger group, the only things left are the carrier latch, recoil spring and bolt carrier... Since you already have the latch on the way let us know what happens with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed1894 Posted December 22, 2009 Author Share Posted December 22, 2009 Well with replacing the mag spring and trigger group, the only things left are the carrier latch, recoil spring and bolt carrier... Since you already have the latch on the way let us know what happens with that. Funny you should mention that. I got the carrier latch and was about to attempt to change it out and noticed something: I can recreate this problem while cycling it dry. It took me about 50 times of back and forth both action, but it finally hung up with the bolt back. I tapped the carrier and it slammed shut. I did it again and in about 40 or 50 times it locked back again. I can feel it catching on something (what ever releases the carrier). The carrier and whatever it's catching is tied together somehow. While doing this, I could not tell how the carrier latch would cause this at all. I looked closely inside the gun and the clearance between the carrier and carrier latch was fine--close but fine. It was not causing the problem. So, there's my problem. This is the 2nd trigger assy, so the problem is somewhere else. Tight tolerances, maybe? Punching out the carrier latch does not appear to be an easy task so I want to make sure before I jump on that. jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agm65ccip Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Funny you should mention that. I got the carrier latch and was about to attempt to change it out and noticed something: I can recreate this problem while cycling it dry. It took me about 50 times of back and forth both action, but it finally hung up with the bolt back. I tapped the carrier and it slammed shut. I did it again and in about 40 or 50 times it locked back again. I can feel it catching on something (what ever releases the carrier). The carrier and whatever it's catching is tied together somehow. While doing this, I could not tell how the carrier latch would cause this at all. I looked closely inside the gun and the clearance between the carrier and carrier latch was fine--close but fine. It was not causing the problem. So, there's my problem. This is the 2nd trigger assy, so the problem is somewhere else. Tight tolerances, maybe? Punching out the carrier latch does not appear to be an easy task so I want to make sure before I jump on that. jed The carrier latch is not difficult to replace, you just need a correctly sized punch to tap out the pin that holds it in. I've done it several times (see the button mod post) and its really not a big deal. There are really only two things that control the carrier movement the trigger assembly spring and the notches on the bottom of the bolt carrier. Since your issue is happening at the beginning of the load cycle we are most concerned with the first notch "B1" as it were: Sorry the text is so small, it looked bigger before I uploaded...anyway if you look at this notch on your bolt you should see that it is flatter on the side that goes toward the stock than it is on the side toward the barrel. This notch B1 interfaces with notch T1 from your trigger assembly: So when you fire a shot and the bolt goes all the way back just as it starts forward B1 and T1 are locked together with the carrier down. The recoil spring pushes the bolt forward and force is applied from B1 to T1 to the carrier (green arrow) to push the carrier up. Once the carrier starts up T1 should disengage from B1 and allow the bolt to pass over it thus loading the round. Because it closes when you tap the carrier up to me that means that the bolt and carrier are getting stuck together when the bolt doesn't have enough force to start the carrier up and thus disengage T1 from B1. Try this out yourself, if you take the bolt assembly and trigger assembly out you can slide the bolt along the top of the trigger assembly and see all of this happening. I would have taken a picture of me doing that but I don't have the 6 hands required to get the things lined up and take a picture haha. So I would make sure the carrier in your new trigger group moves up and down very easily inside the receiver. It should want to stay down but movement should not be difficult at all. Then I would take the trigger assembly and bolt assembly out and play with them as I described sliding one on top of the other and see if you notice what happens when those two notches come together. On mine in order to get the notches to "lock" I have to hold the carrier down as well because it wants to move up in the worst way as soon as the bolt is in position. I would also replace the carrier latch too, no sense in not doing it if your gun is still broken and benelli sent you the part for free, just make sure you get a correctly sized punch and start from the hole in the bottom of the receiver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed1894 Posted December 22, 2009 Author Share Posted December 22, 2009 Outstanding! agm65ccip, you are the man! Great photos and directions. I did what you suggested and I understand perfectly. Everything looks like it should, but here's couple questions that could solve the problem: 1. If I'm getting resistance (bolt hesitates), does this mean my recoil spring may be too weak? The gun is only 3 years old. 2. Or could it be that more lubrication is needed on the parts you pointed out? 3. Could it be that the tolerances on my gun are tighter than normal? I can't say that I've ever oiled those areas with much attention. I generally spray, clean, blow off and lightly coat the entire trigger assy. I generally clean the bolt and wipe with oily rag afterwards. After following your instructions, I went ahead and oiled the areas you mentioned. I also oiled the bottom side of the bolt and every place that the bolt would contact the trigger assy. I put it back together. It felt better. It seemed to slide easier. I could not recreate the problem as before. I guess the true test will be in an actual shooting situation, which will be on Dec 23. What do you think? Thanks again for your pictures and information. jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed1894 Posted December 22, 2009 Author Share Posted December 22, 2009 Outstanding! agm65ccip, you are the man! Great photos and directions. I did what you suggested and I understand perfectly. Everything looks like it should, but here's couple questions that could solve the problem: 1. If I'm getting resistance (bolt hesitates), does this mean my recoil spring may be too weak? The gun is only 3 years old. 2. Or could it be that more lubrication is needed on the parts you pointed out? 3. Could it be that the tolerances on my gun are tighter than normal? I can't say that I've ever oiled those areas with much attention. I generally spray, clean, blow off and lightly coat the entire trigger assy. I generally clean the bolt and wipe with oily rag afterwards. After following your instructions, I went ahead and oiled the areas you mentioned. I also oiled the bottom side of the bolt and every place that the bolt would contact the trigger assy. I put it back together. It felt better. It seemed to slide easier. I could not recreate the problem as before. I guess the true test will be in an actual shooting situation, which will be on Dec 23. What do you think? Thanks again for your pictures and information. jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed1894 Posted December 22, 2009 Author Share Posted December 22, 2009 One other question regarding the carrier latch. Wouldn't the new one have more spring pressure? The only thing that puts the carrier latch in contact with the trigger assy would be that spring pushing it......???? jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agm65ccip Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 1. If I'm getting resistance (bolt hesitates), does this mean my recoil spring may be too weak? The gun is only 3 years old. 2. Or could it be that more lubrication is needed on the parts you pointed out? 3. Could it be that the tolerances on my gun are tighter than normal? I can't say that I've ever oiled those areas with much attention. I generally spray, clean, blow off and lightly coat the entire trigger assy. I generally clean the bolt and wipe with oily rag afterwards. jed One other question regarding the carrier latch. Wouldn't the new one have more spring pressure? The only thing that puts the carrier latch in contact with the trigger assy would be that spring pushing it......???? jed There is potential that the recoil spring is too weak and just not pushing the bolt forward hard enough, but it does seem to work most of the time and to me if your spring was that bad it would be failing much more often. Related to that though have you ever cleaned the recoil spring/tube? If there is a lot of junk in there it might slow the spring down enough to make it fail only sometimes... I would think its more of a lube issue if you haven't been doing that too much. Make sure you get some oil on the large pin where there carrier is attached to the trigger group, and on the pin in the "bolt stop tooth" (T1 as it were). You should be able to move the carrier up and down and move the bolt stop tooth very easily. If you get a some pressure there just lube and work it a few dozen times until both of those move around super easily. I'd also put a few drops of oil on the bolt rails when you put it back into the receiver again the bolt should move forward and backward very smoothly. Tighter tolerances could be an issue but I would think something like that would have worked itself in over the 3 years you have been shooting this. The new carrier latch spring could have more pressure, depending on how worn the spring you have in there now is. Yes the carrier latch should press against the carrier drop lever (silver tab) when the CDL is down (you can see the red). When you push the CDL up the silver tab should get out of the way of the carrier latch and it should spring in against the carrier. This way when the carrier goes down the latch prevents the carrier from rising and stopping the bolt from going forward (as we discussed above). Just remember when you are putting the trigger group back in you should be pushing the button so that the carrier latch is tucked inside the receiver. Sounds like you are close, hopefully soon you can say you have a trouble free gun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed1894 Posted December 22, 2009 Author Share Posted December 22, 2009 There is potential that the recoil spring is too weak and just not pushing the bolt forward hard enough, but it does seem to work most of the time and to me if your spring was that bad it would be failing much more often. Related to that though have you ever cleaned the recoil spring/tube? If there is a lot of junk in there it might slow the spring down enough to make it fail only sometimes... I would think its more of a lube issue if you haven't been doing that too much. Make sure you get some oil on the large pin where there carrier is attached to the trigger group, and on the pin in the "bolt stop tooth" (T1 as it were). You should be able to move the carrier up and down and move the bolt stop tooth very easily. If you get a some pressure there just lube and work it a few dozen times until both of those move around super easily. I'd also put a few drops of oil on the bolt rails when you put it back into the receiver again the bolt should move forward and backward very smoothly. Tighter tolerances could be an issue but I would think something like that would have worked itself in over the 3 years you have been shooting this. The new carrier latch spring could have more pressure, depending on how worn the spring you have in there now is. Yes the carrier latch should press against the carrier drop lever (silver tab) when the CDL is down (you can see the red). When you push the CDL up the silver tab should get out of the way of the carrier latch and it should spring in against the carrier. This way when the carrier goes down the latch prevents the carrier from rising and stopping the bolt from going forward (as we discussed above). Just remember when you are putting the trigger group back in you should be pushing the button so that the carrier latch is tucked inside the receiver. Sounds like you are close, hopefully soon you can say you have a trouble free gun Thanks again. Yes, I've cleaned the recoil tube and spring. It won't hurt to do it again though. I think I'll oil some more as you suggested and give it a good test run through X-mas holidays. It may be, in my situation as least, that I need to add more oil to certain places. On another note, the new trigger assy has helped matters. When I shot it the other day, it did not jam as much. I'll give you an update after I shoot it.....thanks again for your help. jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceDog Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 agm65ccip, I want to thank you too. I've been following this thread intensely and it's very good info. I too will check those pieces as well. I really believe the my M2 ought to be less "sticky" even when completely cleaned and very very lightly oiled in the right spots. Your posts highlight some other points I need to look at closer. Thanks for all your help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed1894 Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 agm65ccip, I want to thank you too. I've been following this thread intensely and it's very good info. I too will check those pieces as well. I really believe the my M2 ought to be less "sticky" even when completely cleaned and very very lightly oiled in the right spots. Your posts highlight some other points I need to look at closer. Thanks for all your help! Another member also sent some great information about polishing the areas discussed by above. Very good idea. I'm in the process of that now.....a good polishing will also probably get any burr that may otherwise be hidden. jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed1894 Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 Well, after polishing, oiling, examining every compenent, following instructions from agm65ccip, I DID NOT fix the problem. The action on the gun is smooth. HOWEVER, I now know what it wrong with the gun: On one of the jams today I took about 15 minutes to examine and photograph the jam. I have always wondered why it on jammed on the 3rd round. Now I know. Here's what I discovered: 1. The jammed round only occurs on the 3rd round. Unlike what I had been told by someone else on another board, the carrier latch is in a different position when a round is still in the magazine. When the magazine is empty (as with my jam), the carrier latch has more pressure in the rear section (toward the butt of the gun). When a round is still in the magazine, the pressure is equal because the carrier latch is holding a shell in the tube. 2. When my jam occurs, I have discovered that the shell base (brass end) is wedged between the wall of the receiver and the carrier latch. The shell will not move unless I reach and unwedge it. However, it will release and load if I push up on the carrier latch or hit the bolt release button (which moves the carrier away from the shell). The front end also appears to be wedged with the front section of the carrier latch but I don't think that part is wedged so much that it would not release. The back part is where the wedge is occurring. agm65ccip first brought this to my attention as a possible cause, but I had never really noticed the wedge. 3. It depends on the shell if I get the wedge. Some of my shells tolerences are wedgeable. Some are a tad smaller and will not wedge. 4. A cure for this (I tested this), is to oil the exact area where the wedge is occurring. I oiled the carrier wall and carrier latch in the exact place of the wedge and my problem seemed to go away (no more jams---only shot a few after that). 5. So, I either have a gun out of tolerance, carrier latch is defective or out of tolerance, need more break-in time with the gun, or a weak recoil spring. Note: I have not replaced the carrier latch. I wanted to test the polishing and oiling first. I would think putting a new carrier latch spring in would put more pressure on the carrier latch. Who knows? 6. I have wear marks on the receiver wall (where wedge occurs). So, it is tight in the this area. To recap, the cause of my problem is when the shell wedges between the carrier latch and the receiver wall. Heavy oil in the this area seems to help (I haven't tested this extensively yet). The bolt is back and locked. I can press the bolt release button and/or the push up on the carrier and it will chamber. So, next step is to change out the carrier latch, I guess, or keep that area oiled. Or maybe a stronger recoil spring is the cure. Should I try to weaken the carrier latch spring (since I have an extra one) to put less pressure on the carrier latch? Thanks in advance. jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed1894 Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 I forgot to add: I have very detailed photographs of the jam if any one is interested. jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agm65ccip Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 I forgot to add: I have very detailed photographs of the jam if any one is interested. jed I'd be very interested in pictures. Post em up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed1894 Posted December 24, 2009 Author Share Posted December 24, 2009 I'd be very interested in pictures. Post em up. I'm not sure how to post like you did. Can you give me quick instructions.....better yet, why don't I just email them to you. PM email address. Another thing, I may have mucked something up trying to the carrier latch pin out. I didn't have the best punch in the world, but it is stuck coming out of the bottom. My punch wasn't long enough I guess. So, I'll have to wait until I get a better punch to get the pin out. I stopped before I really screwed it up. Is there a trick? jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed1894 Posted December 24, 2009 Author Share Posted December 24, 2009 Well, I think I'm giving up on this problem and will send the gun to Benelli after Christmas. While trying to change out the carrier latch, I bent/opened the pin trying to punch it out (it actually got stuck and would not move any further). I also scratched my gun around the pin hole trying to pull this off. The pin is hollow and I guess my punch went inside the hollow part and widen it out a bit. I don't think I can go any further without damaging the gun. The problem is either the carrier latch or the receiver is a tad out of tolerance. Thanks for all the help.....anyone having a similar problem (shell stuck on carrier), take a look and see if it's wedged like mine. You'll be able to see the wear/indention on the inside of the receiver. jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agm65ccip Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 I'm not sure how to post like you did. Can you give me quick instructions.....better yet, why don't I just email them to you. PM email address. Another thing, I may have mucked something up trying to the carrier latch pin out. I didn't have the best punch in the world, but it is stuck coming out of the bottom. My punch wasn't long enough I guess. So, I'll have to wait until I get a better punch to get the pin out. I stopped before I really screwed it up. Is there a trick? jed Here are some instructions for posting to the forum: http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14613 Its too bad you couldn't get this all worked out without sending it back to benelli, hopefully they will take care of it quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed1894 Posted December 24, 2009 Author Share Posted December 24, 2009 Here are some instructions for posting to the forum: http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14613 Its too bad you couldn't get this all worked out without sending it back to benelli, hopefully they will take care of it quickly. Stand by and I'll try to get the photographs uploaded. jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed1894 Posted December 24, 2009 Author Share Posted December 24, 2009 test... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jed1894 Posted December 24, 2009 Author Share Posted December 24, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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