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Shotgun or pistol?


CWP147

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A wise man once told me, " If you knew where to expect trouble, You would not go there in the first place. ". Aside from stupid decisions and putting yourself into bad situations, you don't know what to expect from the criminal element anywhere. Keep a gun, Learn how to use it well and safely with much practice, Use it when all of your other choices are gone.

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I don't know if I agree with that totally. It's not necessarily about the money. While my NFA stuff did cost a lot of money (and they aren't as easy to replace, just due to availability), it's all insured on a separate policy. My concern is someone using my M-16 or MAC-10 (etc) to shoot a bunch of other people. That's why they are all in a safe, and my HD .45 is in a separate gun vault (if it's not on my person) that I can access quickly and still leave the other guns secure. Sure, if someone really wants your stuff, they may still figure out a way to get at it (even with a safe/alarm/dog/and armed owner :). You can't deter everyone, the best you can do is make them think twice about trying. But if I can keep them from killing anyone else (either by locking my guns up or stopping an intruder) then I figure I need to try.

 

I was thinking that a gun safe is more for storing the gun safely but the best way to protect against a thief who wants your guns is to have a good security system in place.

 

I'll stay away from the tactical guns, but the hunting gun that I have, sure I have it in a gun safe, but if someone pulled out a gun and asked me to open it, than I would. It's a nice gun but I can get another one, and I'm not sure why they themselves couldn't, but not everyone is able to work I guess.

 

Well if I wanted to keep military weapons or tactical equipment, I'd make sure that I had a sophisticated security system in place first. They would be caught on video on several different cameras and several different hard drives.

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In regards to all the people that said they shoot to kill and are willing to take the court system on with all good hopes, just keep in mind that you easily have multiple shots and in court its almost impossible to defend a robber that has two rounds in him, a first non-lethal followed by a lethal if necessary.

 

My point is, unless you NEED the first shot to cause death, its a **** of a lot easier for your lawyer to defend you if your first shot was non-lethal. Theres no court room that would go against that. Regardless of the state or laws. If your life is in danger and you still have the level head to go with a non-lethal approach to the situation then the jury will be able to see that with no problems at all.

 

I'm still no lawyer or am I in law school, but it has been said many times in the world of self defense. By instructors, teachers and the such.

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I'm still no lawyer or am I in law school, but it has been said many times in the world of self defense. By instructors, teachers and the such.

 

Hmmm, my state certified CCW instructor (who's a cop and trains Law Enforcement as part of his position) said, if in a situation that you need to pull your weapon (i.e. you’re going to shoot in self defense) that you keep pulling the trigger 'till the assailant drops. A non-lethal shot means they can still kill you (which defeats the purpose of defending yourself). Just passing along what they teach.

IF I ever have to go to court (and I hope I'll never be in the position to have to shoot), that'll be part of my defense (that's how the state approved CCW trainer instructed me). Not saying it’ll work, but 20 years of Mil service showed me there’s reasons they teach certain things, and (even if I didn’t listen when I was young) it’s usually a good, sound reasoning behind it, especially when you have to react without much time to think out every detail (which is why we train and prepare). But local laws differ, so I might be wrong :)

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I'll stay away from the tactical guns, but the hunting gun that I have, sure I have it in a gun safe, but if someone pulled out a gun and asked me to open it, than I would. It's a nice gun but I can get another one, and I'm not sure why they themselves couldn't, but not everyone is able to work I guess.

 

If having my security system/dog/defense gun/safe hasn't deterred/stopped them, I have to assume, with a gun pointed at my head, that they plan on killing me anyways. So no, I’m not opening my safe ('course, that's easier to say when it's not happening to you, so who knows :) )

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Hmmm, my state certified CCW instructor (who's a cop and trains Law Enforcement as part of his position) said, if in a situation that you need to pull your weapon (i.e. you’re going to shoot in self defense) that you keep pulling the trigger 'till the assailant drops. A non-lethal shot means they can still kill you (which defeats the purpose of defending yourself). Just passing along what they teach.

IF I ever have to go to court (and I hope I'll never be in the position to have to shoot), that'll be part of my defense (that's how the state approved CCW trainer instructed me). Not saying it’ll work, but 20 years of Mil service showed me there’s reasons they teach certain things, and (even if I didn’t listen when I was young) it’s usually a good, sound reasoning behind it, especially when you have to react without much time to think out every detail (which is why we train and prepare). But local laws differ, so I might be wrong :)

 

Thats why I emphasized the "need" in my first post. A shot in the back or a dead robber that still has his weapon holstered can't look too good on you...

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Thats why I emphasized the "need" in my first post. A shot in the back or a dead robber that still has his weapon holstered can't look too good on you...

 

Agreed, you shouldn't even PULL your gun unless you need/intend to shoot. If there's no need to shoot, you don't feel you're in danger. But if you do feel you need to shoot, that implies that you fear for your life and need to defend yourself with lethal force.

I asked my instructor about having my first round in my 12 gauge a non-lethal (bean bag/rubber slug etc) for legality purposes (to show I didn't intend to kill). His point is that (and it follows the principles of self defense shooting IMHO) IF you are to the point of pulling your gun, you are to the point of HAVING to shoot. If you have to shoot (i.e. you pulled your gun), you believe it's a life and death situation and you need drop the assailant before they kill you. If you are pulling your gun at unarmed thieves or don't think your life is in danger, that’s another story...

Don't know if that's exactly what you're saying, and that's just my opinion (I've been wrong before :) ) and I'm just passing along one instructors view.

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Agreed, you shouldn't even PULL your gun unless you need/intend to shoot. If there's no need to shoot, you don't feel you're in danger. But if you do feel you need to shoot, that implies that you fear for your life and need to defend yourself with lethal force.

I asked my instructor about having my first round in my 12 gauge a non-lethal (bean bag/rubber slug etc) for legality purposes (to show I didn't intend to kill). His point is that (and it follows the principles of self defense shooting IMHO) IF you are to the point of pulling your gun, you are to the point of HAVING to shoot. If you have to shoot (i.e. you pulled your gun), you believe it's a life and death situation and you need drop the assailant before they kill you. If you are pulling your gun at unarmed thieves or don't think your life is in danger, that’s another story...

Don't know if that's exactly what you're saying, and that's just my opinion (I've been wrong before :) ) and I'm just passing along one instructors view.

 

I agree with you, with out a doubt, but I would much rather cover my own a$$ a little bit and risk it with a non-lethal shot first. What you said is very true, but all the millions of people against gun control will never agree with you if you're on trial. If you have some one dead in your house, you shot and gun haters will most likely, in my opinion vote against you. By all means, do what you feel you have to and what you have been thought. I'm certainly not trying to change your mind or opinions, personally, I would just go non-lethal first for the sake of having that on my side in court. It most certainly helps.

 

If my family is in danger then I'm going with your view on it :rolleyes: if they're not in immediate danger then I'm doing what i can to save myself in court.

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If my family is in danger then I'm going with your view on it :rolleyes: if they're not in immediate danger then I'm doing what i can to save myself in court.

 

So, in the spur of the moment when you have to make a lightning quick decision, are you gonna pull your weapon, then load it with either lethal or non lethal and then shoot? That seems like a lot to do in a short amount of time.

 

Obviously decisions will have to be made. If somebody is seen leaving my house, by all means, leave. I won't shoot somebody in the back when they're on their way out whether they have my TV, stereo, or whatever. I'm not gonna shoot somebody that's frozen by the sight of the barrel of my shotgun like a deer in the headlights. I WILL however shoot somebody that's charging at me whether his gun is drawn or still holstered and I will shoot to stop him as soon as possible, he might die during this process. Shooting my weapon at somebody is a last line of defense. If it comes down to it, my intentions are to stop an attacker, if he dies in the process that's too bad. He shouldn't have broken into my house. The jury can decide my innocence or guilt or whether it was justified. What is important to me and what is left for me to decide is whether or not my family and I will be alive tomorrow. If the threat is there, I'll do what I must.

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I said nothing about loading loading either a lethal or a non-lethal round, always load with your regular rounds. You never know whats going to happen. However, a shot in the leg is considered non-lethal. It has nothing to do with loading lethal or non lethal rounds in the spur of the moment.

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I'm certainly not trying to change your mind or opinions, personally, I would just go non-lethal first for the sake of having that on my side in court. It most certainly helps.

 

If my family is in danger then I'm going with your view on it :rolleyes: if they're not in immediate danger then I'm doing what i can to save myself in court.

 

It also depends on local laws (which it's helpful to know a little about). AZ passed (in 06) a law that puts the burden of proof (in self defense cases) on the prosecution (previously it was on the defendant) and also included the "castle doctrine" (basically "stand-your ground" law) that gives Arizonans the authority to use physical or deadly force to protect themselves against intruders if they believe they're "in imminent peril of death or serious injury". No more duty to retreat first.

If an intruder shows the capability, opportunity, and manifest of intent, you are justified. They don’t even need a weapon. If you're 5'2" and 105lbs, and some 250lbs intruder advances and says "I'm going to kill you", that covers it. Do what works for you and the local laws. Here, I feel comfortable not letting an intruder get a shot off while he's limping (or even a lucky punch/stab etc). Just my opinion.

Now if I still lived in Western NY…..????

But I understand where you're comming from and your justification.

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I said nothing about loading loading either a lethal or a non-lethal round, always load with your regular rounds. You never know whats going to happen. However, a shot in the leg is considered non-lethal. It has nothing to do with loading lethal or non lethal rounds in the spur of the moment.

 

I understand where he's coming from too. But the way I see it is, if you shoot an intruder in the leg and he's armed, now he's going into self defense mode and if he wasn't intending on shooting you he might be intending on it now that he's wounded and "cornered". I say cornered since he can't get up and leave. He doesn't know your intentions so he very well may try and shoot you to defend himself. If you shoot for the chest you will probably kill him. He won't be able to shoot back at you, your odds of hitting your target go up, and in the end you and your family are safe. Now, I said he might not have been intending to shoot you in the first place, you being the owner of this home and defender of your family, don't have the luxury of gambling with the lives of your family. I say, take the easier sure shot that will stop the intruder in his tracks and raise the safety factor for you and your family. Gun laws are an after thought for me. But that's just me. In a situation like this I will NEVER put the government before my family. I'll use common sense and do what's right. If it means jail time for me because I killed a home invader and potentially saved my life and the lives of my family, so be it. There are just too many risks in shoot for the legs or shoot to wound tactics.

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Shooting to wound = 2 stories in court and almost surely being sued by the person you "assaulted".

 

Shooting to kill = 1 story in court and if played right and justified, no charges pressed by the police.

 

Families can still sure on behalf of their poor sweet child you killed that was trying to kill your family, but shooting to wound is just piss poor advice.

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shooting to wound is just piss poor advice.

 

Maybe so, just my opinion. I'm not going to risk sitting in jail the rest of my life while my family doesn't have me to work and pay the bills. I just don't trust the legal system with my fate when I'm on the chopping block for possible murder/manslaughter.

 

Maybe I'm thinking further down the road... you do you in your situation if they come and I'll do me in my situation. I'll leave it all at that.

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Maybe so, just my opinion. I'm not going to risk sitting in jail the rest of my life while my family doesn't have me to work and pay the bills. I just don't trust the legal system with my fate when I'm on the chopping block for possible murder/manslaughter.

 

Maybe I'm thinking further down the road... you do you in your situation if they come and I'll do me in my situation. I'll leave it all at that.

 

 

So you will go to jail for attempted murder/manslaughter. I think thats a 30+ year sentence.

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Maybe so, just my opinion. I'm not going to risk sitting in jail the rest of my life while my family doesn't have me to work and pay the bills. I just don't trust the legal system with my fate when I'm on the chopping block for possible murder/manslaughter.

Sounds like you need to just sell your ******* guns and let your fate be determined by law enforcement response time. The above scenarios are not only way to thought out but are almost laughable. I am all about HD and protection of property but some of you are on a whole nother level with these doomsday onslaughts.

The guy who usually has the best plan and skills to follow through doesn't talk about it.

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