blackpowder1 Posted November 12, 2010 Share Posted November 12, 2010 Hi out there ! Just got my new Benelli M2 tactical and trying to figure it out. Very simple, really. Just miss one thing: How do you manually decock the thing without dry-fireing it ?? Once unloaded, I can not find a way to decock it other than to just pull the trigger (ouch, said the fireing pin !) Can anyone out there give me a hint? Thanks ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super33 Posted November 12, 2010 Share Posted November 12, 2010 Magazine release? (click) I don't own an M2 but on my M4 it's in the magazine release. I have a habit of slapping my forehead when I see people dry firing their M4 to decock it. Not a very safe procedure and a bad habit if you ask me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpowder1 Posted November 12, 2010 Author Share Posted November 12, 2010 Magazine release? Please explain. My M2 has a tube mag and there is no release. To unload the tube (magazine) you only press the shell retaining clip with your finger and the shells jump out one by one . . . how is the M4 different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super33 Posted November 12, 2010 Share Posted November 12, 2010 I don't own or have ever handled an M2. The M4 on the other hand I do have experience with. There is a "Cartridge drop lever". Pushing this lever will release a round from the magazine onto the rail. You will then pull back on the bolt handle and release to load a round, the second round will stay in the magazine, this keeps the rail clear for topping off the magazine. When the trigger is pulled the gun will fire and simultaneously release another round from the magazine. When the bolt is returning from the rearward position it will feed that second round up into the chamber, keeping the rail clear. Now assuming the gun is empty, this is directly from the user manual: "The end of the cartridge drop lever which protrudes from the receiver is marked with a red point. When the red point is visible, the hammer is cocked and the gun is ready to fire; otherwise the hammer is not cocked." When my M4 is empty and the bolt is locked back I can hit the bolt release button and the red dot on the cartridge drop lever is visible. I can dry fire or I can push the cartridge drop lever and it will click. After I do this, I can pull the trigger and there is still a click. That click however is not the hammer and if there was a shell in the chamber it would not be fired. I cannot speak from experience because I've never tried firing the gun with a shell in the chamber after releasing the cartridge drop lever and not cocking the gun. SO, I'm on my way to the back yard to see what happens and I'll let you know. Because I'm curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super33 Posted November 12, 2010 Share Posted November 12, 2010 OKAY, here are my results. This is exactly what I did. I picked up my M4 and hugged it cause I love it. Then I walked for about 5 minutes into the back. I call this area of the back yard the "shooting gallery", it's about 300 yards from the house. I had 7 rounds of federal OO buck 9 pellet in the tube, standard 127 OO. I hit the cartridge drop lever and released a shell from the magazine onto the rail. I pulled back on the bolt handle and released. Now there's a shell in the chamber and nothing on the rail, 6 shells in the tube. I hit the cartridge drop lever again. NOW AFTER I HIT THE LEVER AGAIN THE RED DOT WAS GONE. ACCORDING TO THE BENELLI MANUAL THIS MEANS THE HAMMER IS NOT COCKED, REFER TO MY POST ABOVE FOR THE QUOTE FROM THE MANUAL. I pulled the trigger and to my surprise I was 1 Federal less than I was before. I'm glad blackpowder asked his questions because until now I was under the ASS-UMPTION that pushing that lever de-cocked the gun, JUST LIKE THE MANUAL SAYS IT DOES. I'm a little disappointed. This is a HUGE safety concern. Please somebody correct me where I made a mistake because I can't believe there's a problem like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckht183 Posted November 12, 2010 Share Posted November 12, 2010 I thought the cartridge drop lever's purpose was to drop a shell onto the rail or when pushed it allowed the bolt to lock back... The sound of the cartridge drop lever when pushed and the sound of the hammer releasing are completely different so I dont see how the cartridge drop lever can serve as a de-cocking device. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super33 Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 (edited) I thought the cartridge drop lever's purpose was to drop a shell onto the rail or when pushed it allowed the bolt to lock back... The sound of the cartridge drop lever when pushed and the sound of the hammer releasing are completely different so I dont see how the cartridge drop lever can serve as a de-cocking device. According to the M4 manual when you CANNOT see the red tip or dot the hammer is not cocked. I was under the assumption that if the hammer is not cocked the gun won't fire. That's what I'm saying. Now assuming the gun is empty, this is directly from the user manual: "The end of the cartridge drop lever which protrudes from the receiver is marked with a red point. When the red point is visible, the hammer is cocked and the gun is ready to fire; otherwise the hammer is not cocked." Therefore I'm assuming my original assumption was wrong. Also, this is a lesson to not assume because of all the assumption confusion that is occuring here. Edited November 13, 2010 by Super33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckht183 Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 Thats what I would assume too.... I dont own an M4 but I've got a Benelli SBE that I just tried it on and when the red dot on the cartridge drop lever was not visible, I pulled the trigger, and the hammer fell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckht183 Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 The only way to de-cock the gun would be to either dry fire or use a snap cap then right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super33 Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 The only way to de-cock the gun would be to either dry fire or use a snap cap then right? That's what I'm assuming.... doh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpowder1 Posted November 13, 2010 Author Share Posted November 13, 2010 exactly ! And you dont really have to go out back to test it (now your'e one round short:D, see). You can just visually observe the hammer drop after pushing the drop lever up and pulling the trigger. The click we hear when pushing the drop lever up is something else - not a decocking function. That is why I asked my question. Because I tried this and other things and found no way to decock the action. perhaps someone can enlighten us . . . ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super33 Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 exactly ! And you dont really have to go out back to test it (now your'e one round short, see). You can just visually observe the hammer drop after pushing the drop lever up and pulling the trigger. The click we hear when pushing the drop lever up is something else - not a decocking function. That is why I asked my question. Because I tried this and other things and found no way to decock the action. perhaps someone can enlighten us . . . ? Yes, I had to go out back and test because when you brought that up I brought out the manual and read it, but it didn't match my memory. So I brought out my gun, there was that click when I pulled the trigger AFTER I hit the release. Since that didn't match the manual I had to see for myself. So I took the ol' M4 out back to run a test. I did lose that round, and since I was back there and had 6 more I also lost those . So in this test I lost 7 rounds, what can I say... Now I too am joining the club and waiting to be enlightened. I'm glad you asked that question because I was under the impression of what I've read from the manual which appears to be false or at least misunderstood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hognutz Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 I don't own a M4 or a M2, but I do own several SBE's, two Legacys, a Vinci and two Novas. The lever on the side, with the red dot on it, on the semi-autos, is a cartridge drop lever. If the chamber is emptied by hand, it will not reload another shell into the chamber, unless this lever is pushed. It allows a shell to drop out of the magazine and onto the carrier. It does not decock the gun, it simply allows a shell out of the mag. If you simply push the cartridge drop lever and pull the trigger without taking the shell out of the chamber, it will shoot every time. Unload the gun completely, and dry fire it if you don't want to store it cocked..Hope this helps..Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super33 Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 (edited) I don't own a M4 or a M2, but I do own several SBE's, two Legacys, a Vinci and two Novas. The lever on the side, with the red dot on it, on the semi-autos, is a cartridge drop lever. If the chamber is emptied by hand, it will not reload another shell into the chamber, unless this lever is pushed. It allows a shell to drop out of the magazine and onto the carrier. It does not decock the gun, it simply allows a shell out of the mag. If you simply push the cartridge drop lever and pull the trigger without taking the shell out of the chamber, it will shoot every time. Unload the gun completely, and dry fire it if you don't want to store it cocked..Hope this helps..Mike That's exactly what was determined. But what gets me is that the Benelli manual says that if the red dot is not visible the hammer is not cocked. If the hammer is not cocked, why does the gun fire? It's not that I'm complaining about the functioning of the gun, but rather the wording in the manual which gives a false impression of a gun that can or cannot be fired. To me that could be a huge safety concern. Here it is one more time exactly from the manual: "The end of the cartridge drop lever which protrudes from the receiver is marked with a red point. When the red point is visible, the hammer is cocked and the gun is ready to fire; otherwise the hammer is not cocked." If a hammer is not cocked, wouldn't that gun NOT FIRE when the trigger is pulled? That is not the case. The gun DOES FIRE when the red point is visible and "the hammer is not cocked". Edited November 13, 2010 by Super33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck_s Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 The Marine Corps manual I have is probably horribly out of date (November 2000) but even it implies that no dot means not cocked or loaded. Not the case as just proven in Super 33's backyard life fire test (and mine moments ago with snap caps!). The red dot is a sure sign that the shotgun is cocked. But lack of that dot doesn't mean it ain't! The critical thing to remember is: There is no decocker! -- Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hognutz Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 I think what they are saying is, without physically pushing the shell drop lever, if the red dot is seen, it is cocked. If it is not seen, it is un-cocked, by normal loading and unloading. Remember, it is only a shell drop, period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super33 Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 (edited) I think what they are saying is, without physically pushing the shell drop lever, if the red dot is seen, it is cocked. If it is not seen, it is un-cocked, by normal loading and unloading. Remember, it is only a shell drop, period. I've always thought that cocked is ready to fire and uncocked is not ready to fire. If what you're saying is what they meant they're leaving a lot of room for debate, which in my opinion, could have been and should have been avoided. Especially considering the subject at hand. "The end of the cartridge drop lever which protrudes from the receiver is marked with a red point. When the red point is visible, the hammer is cocked and the gun is ready to fire; otherwise the hammer is not cocked." ONLY a shell drop.... why does it have a red point on it then? Why do they even discuss the gun being cocked and not cocked? What is your definition of "not cocked" and what does that entail? Should an "uncocked" weapon fire when the trigger is pulled? I don't think there should be any ands, ifs or buts about it. I ask for your opinion because based on what's written in the manual, the facts seem to be left to the reader's opinion. Although it seemed pretty straight forward before this issue was brought up but I for one was wrong. I like your signature by the way, it seems to tell a whole story in only one sentence! Edited November 13, 2010 by Super33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpowder1 Posted November 13, 2010 Author Share Posted November 13, 2010 . . . I agree with Super33. At the very least, the manual is misleading (probably a translation issue from italian into english to begin with). I am glad I am not the only one misinterpreting what is written - guess I am not totally stupid after all . . . I think I will call Benelli and tell them I just blew out a dozen shingles from my roof after following instructions in the manual regarding the drop lever. Let's see what they say to that (...probably send me a pot to put on the floor). Ok, joking aside, I think my M2 just can not be decocked without pulling the trigger on an empty chamber. I guess that's what I'll do. One should not store the gun with springs under tension as has been suggested above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck_s Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 The Benenni will drop the hammer with the bolt out of battery, just like the M16. And just like the M16 the firing pin is too short to reach the primer unless the bolt has rotated and retracted itself fully back into the bolt carrier. If you're worried about beating up your firing pin when decocking: Clear the weapon, close the bolt to about an inch before fully closed, and and snap the trigger at that point. A cursory visual check of the angles indicates the hammer strikes he lower section of the bolt carrier and not the firing pin. Oh, yeah, the red dot doesn't show after this. Sua Sponte, -- Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtCathy Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 You folks are READING way to much into a simple operation. The M4 is a weapon not a toy that you can play with all day in your living room and make it do all kinds of fun and silly stuff. As a weapon, it's meant to be fired (for real). When you pull the trigger, the hammer drops, the cartridge drop lever goes up. IF, the M4 had a live round in the chamber, it will be ejected, the hammer will be recocked and the cartridge drop lever will go back down (be visible). IF, the M4 was not loaded with a live round, the hammer will still drop and the cartridge lever will go up (out of sight). This is callled DRY FIRING. When actually shooting the M4, after the last round, the chamber stays open. The manual is written as if you are on the range and shooting the weapon. I'll say that 99 % of semi-automatics shotguns operate in this manner even if a cartridge drop lever is visible or not (such as in Remy 1100's or 11-87's or A-5's). This is basic gun school not rocket science. Come on guys....geez !!!! To make things more simple and to hopefully avoid accidental shootings, remember this. If your weapon does not actually have a lever "named" a decocking lever, such as in a Berretta 92F pistol, and provided your weapon has been safely unloaded, until you have pulled the trigger, released the sear and the hammer drops, you have a live weapon, ready to shoot , kill or maim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super33 Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 You folks are READING way to much into a simple operation. The M4 is a weapon not a toy that you can play with all day in your living room and make it do all kinds of fun and silly stuff. As a weapon, it's meant to be fired (for real). When you pull the trigger, the hammer drops, the cartridge drop lever goes up. IF, the M4 had a live round in the chamber, it will be ejected, the hammer will be recocked and the cartridge drop lever will go back down (be visible). IF, the M4 was not loaded with a live round, the hammer will still drop and the cartridge lever will go up (out of sight). This is callled DRY FIRING. When actually shooting the M4, after the last round, the chamber stays open. The manual is written as if you are on the range and shooting the weapon. I'll say that 99 % of semi-automatics shotguns operate in this manner even if a cartridge drop lever is visible or not (such as in Remy 1100's or 11-87's or A-5's). This is basic gun school not rocket science. Come on guys....geez !!!! To make things more simple and to hopefully avoid accidental shootings, remember this. If your weapon does not actually have a lever "named" a decocking lever, such as in a Berretta 92F pistol, and provided your weapon has been safely unloaded, until you have pulled the trigger, released the sear and the hammer drops, you have a live weapon, ready to shoot , kill or maim. I think you're misunderstanding the entire point. Nobody is complaining about the functioning of the gun, but rather the wording in the manual. You might say, what's the big deal, but it could potentially be a big deal. Basic gun school? Maybe not everybody is as educated on guns as you are so they refer to the manual where they can be misled by the previously posted quote. You made your point that you understand the functioning of the gun and that's terrific. But I for one still think the manual is misleading whether I'm a noob or a gun expert. Mainly because of my opinion of the difference between a "cocked gun that's ready to fire" and an "uncocked gun". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtCathy Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 Yes, I understood the basic point. The manual is confusing. Have you received a manual from Smith & Wesson or Auto-Ordnance on how to take down and re-assemble their semi-automatics? Lot's of luck with those. But basic gun knowledge will win through the day and get your weapons working again. Knowing that a cartridge drop lever, is just that - a cartridge drop lever, will keep you safe and alive. Basic gun knowledge. I have a large box full of gun manuals with glaring mistakes in all of them. Perhaps if you were to write Benelli a polite letter, they may alter the wording in the manual to be less confusing. It could happen! In the mean time, basic firearms mechanics, will keep you safe. And, that was my point. The thread that you posted most likely saved a few folks from blowing off their foot (or worse). You're well on your way to becoming a knowledgeable gun owner. Always question authority and never believe everything you read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpowder1 Posted November 13, 2010 Author Share Posted November 13, 2010 Yes, I understood the basic point. The manual is confusing. Have you received a manual from Smith & Wesson or Auto-Ordnance on how to take down and re-assemble their semi-automatics? Lot's of luck with those. But basic gun knowledge will win through the day and get your weapons working again. Knowing that a cartridge drop lever, is just that - a cartridge drop lever, will keep you safe and alive. Basic gun knowledge. I have a large box full of gun manuals with glaring mistakes in all of them. Perhaps if you were to write Benelli a polite letter, they may alter the wording in the manual to be less confusing. It could happen! In the mean time, basic firearms mechanics, will keep you safe. And, that was my point. The thread that you posted most likely saved a few folks from blowing off their foot (or worse). You're well on your way to becoming a knowledgeable gun owner. Always question authority and never believe everything you read. Now I would like to put in my 2 cents as well. First, it was I who posted the thread. Simply because I was interested if there was a way to decock the gun other than by pulling the trigger. No more, no less. I think we have answered this question. Second, I agree with super33 that such awkward and ambiguous wording in a manual is no laughing matter. Not everyone receives professional training in the use of firearms, as you obviously have, and many firearm owners depend on manuals. So someone should let Benelli know this (I just left my half written email to Benelli in order to comment here again). To come back to our subject again, it seems, from the quick research I have done, that dry firing this weapon - no matter how often - does not hurt the firing pin or the hammer. So after the last round leaves the barrel, just close the bolt and pull the trigger. Do not store the empty weapon cocked with a spring under tension for who knows how long. This will definately shorten the lifespan of the spring. Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hognutz Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 Not necessarily. There was lengthy debate on here a while back from mech. engineers, and such that stated that a spring does not lose life from being under tension. I can't answer that with a qualified response. But hopefully, someone will chime in on the subject. I personally drop the hammer. (Dryfire).. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agm65ccip Posted November 13, 2010 Share Posted November 13, 2010 Do not store the empty weapon cocked with a spring under tension for who knows how long. This will definately shorten the lifespan of the spring. Right? If you wanted to get technical even after dry-firing the hammer spring is still under "tension" (it's really compression but whatever) because the spring is still stopped from expanding to its full length by the spring cap. That coupled with the discussion referred to by hognutz to me you are going through a lot of mental anguish and not even solving the problem you are concerned about. Personally I don't dry fire for storage. I figured that if the spring does wear out I have had nothing but excellent response from Benelli CS and they would probably send me a new one for just asking... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.