Shell Carriers and other Tacticool stuff

[Renault]

I just wanted to get other people's opinions about all this stuff. I won't lie, it does look cool... but I just want to know how many people think the added weight and bulk to your gun is worth the money and if it's useful for anything other than scaring liberals into trying even harder to make it so you can't have **** this cool. For example, a shell carrier... I do get the practicality of having extra shells, but wouldn't it be better to have the shells on your person rather than the added weight to your gun? Do you find optics necessary on a shotgun? and are flashlights really necessary? (yes i have heard stories of people accidentally shooting loved ones because it was dark, but that just seems very rare... and honestly i don't really plan on shooting people in the dark)

 

I guess partially I'm jealous because I envy you all for having so much cool ****, but maybe I can soothe myself with some practical words from the wiser on why I should just leave my M4 as is. (kip's tube aside, since that's the only change I've made)

[StrangerDanger]

The only benefit to having a shell carrier is to have the rounds on the weapon fir a quick grab and go situation. Such cases, you don't have several minutes to gear up. You'd be lucky to have shoes honestly.

 

7 or 8 rounds of 12 gauge should do most jobs though honestly. I do not want the added bulk and weight associated with a weapon mounted carrier. I do not care about the overall weight of the weapon because it is heavy. I care that the weight is slowing my reaction time down, or impeding my ability to shoulder the weapon for long periods of time.

 

I find a weapon light to be mandatory. Target identification and searching areas for trouble helps when you can see. My property is pretty large and remote. The idea that I would call the police and hide in my closet sucking my thumb every time i hear a noise is laughable. Even the responding Officer would tell you to man up if he was honest.

 

You don't run around like a 'tard with the light on the entire time. I usually slip outdoors in the dark and listen. Usually the dog is going apesh*t if it detects something. It'll track right for it.

 

If you do add a light, pick a simple, lightweight, durable and easy to use model. Something like a Surefire Scout. Mounting options are complex. I've been working on mine for 7 years, and haven't gotten it exactly where I want it.

 

You do not need an optic, but they are nice to have. Again, weight and bulk are the enemy. Something like an Aimpoint T1 or the new Trijicon optics are excellent. I run all slugs, so the optic pushes my effective range out to a 100 yards. Someone will cry that I can't shoot a person legally at that distance. They would be correct in most cases. However, I deal with 4 legged threats on my property that are not afforded such liberal protection.

[twowheelhooligan]

Renault,

 

You asked very valid questions. Had they been worded differently, it'd come off like you were a liberal spying on us gun-totin' types. But, I interpreted your tone as friendly debate vs acusatory. And THAT is A-O-K with me!

 

Weapon Light: I responded with my then department issued AR15 and a handheld light to homicide subjects sleeping in a car a number of years ago. I was the only one of the four there that thought of a long-gun and I had to illuminate the car as well(Surefire L5.) THEN. . the brilliance of the supv on scene had me cuff-n-stuff as well. WTF?? I thought. So. . .I will *NEVER* be caught juggling multiple items on a long-gun again!! Pt it on the gun, you'll never forget it. Just train with it!!! Many options. I recommend nothing under 120-150 lumens though, BLIND 'EM!!!!

 

Shell Carrier: Stranger has said most of it. Also, if you want to load the magtube with buckshot, and have slugs on the carrier, for varying threats, etc. Again, TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN!!!

 

Shell Carrier 1.1: You could choose to place shells on your person in 3-gun competition, but again, as Stranger mentioned, at 2am, you won't think about the spare equipment. Same with the light issue I mention above.

 

OPTICS: I thought the same thing as you, "Why mount optics on a shotty?" I tell ya though, that dot shows up very very nicely and quickly!! There are dots out there from 1 - 9 MOA and then chevrons, triangles, circles. Contrary to what many MANY people think, you do need to aim a shotty! Once you find buckshot that patterns well in your shotty, find slugs that can be accurately fired at 50,75, 100 yds, the optic will prove to be valuable. Necessary? absolutely not. A help? Yes indeed.

 

I think the most valuable thing you can do is this:

 

1) Train for malfunction drills & reload drills with birdshot, dummy rounds and combo thereof. Learn how your gun works, and how you work WITH it, not against it.

 

2) Take the time to pattern different buckshot loads you have available, and see which ones work. Yeah, it takes time, money and many targets. But. . . The Hornady TAP 8rd 00Buck is something that has been VERY consistent for me. 3.5" groups from 25-40ft.

 

3) Try some slugs at 25, 50, 75, even 100yds. Which ones hold a nice group, etc.

 

After the above, then get the equipment that augments your needs, whether it be LE, Military, Home Defense, 3-gun or just plain plinking fun!!

 

Enjoy your M4!!

 

2-wheel

[Renault]

Good discussion, thanks for the replies... reason being I've started getting some decent sized paychecks (as good as they'll get for a college student), and with each paycheck I'm debating making my M4 cooler, or continuing to build on my AR-15... of which is currently only a lower and nothing else.

[dprichard]

Wow great thread!

[needncash]

Good question and great replies so far, my thoughts are....

1) I never liked shell carriers due to added weight and size but recently I made the compromise for increased protection. I use the M4 for home defense and I like the added convenience of a "grab-n-go" shotty. Sidearmor is by far the nicest piece available and is quickly removeable for transport or if you prefer to keep the shell carrier mounted only when home. Practice and train with and without carrier mounted.

2) Lights are necessary and there are literally hundreds of options ranging from affordable to stupid. I like a QD mount for quick install and removeal, I prefer Surefire and Streamlight products, and I also think tailcaps that allow pushbutton and tape switch operation are most versatile.

3) I always thought optics were a waste of money on a shotgun until I had a chance to try one, I quickly changed my mind. They allow quick target acquisition and precision placement of 1oz. slugs out to 100-+ yards. I went with a Burris Fastfire2 while I wait for a Trijicon dual-illumination RMR with a 4MOA red dot, I cannot see the current orange dot in the daytime.

 

As far as your builds are concerned, take your time and don't cut corners for costs. When they are "complete" you will not regret the added time and cost to build what you really want.

[StrangerDanger]

For shell carriers, I've had all the brands. Here is how I would rate them:

SideArmor: Best design by far. Will never wear out. Only downside is the weight penalty. The carrier itself is quite heavy. Even my 4 round carrier weighed 4 or 5 ounces.

 

3GunGear: Super lightweight. Essentially the only thing you're adding is the weight of the shells. Very low profile, folds flush with the receiver when no shells are present. Kind of ugly though and will wear out eventualy.

 

Tacstar: Junk. Good retention, but the mounting system to the M4 is Fail.

 

Mesa Tactical: Not really a fan. The top rail is fail. It's heavy. The shells were a b*tch to get in and out of my unit. I've heard there was a revision since I had mine. The ergonomics of the carrier aren't as well refined as the SideArmor. I'm not comfortable mounting 6+ shells to the top rail holes without a forward support like the SideArmor has on their full rail system.

[SemperFirearms]

Great info here, thanks!

[m4p226n]

The only benefit to having a shell carrier is to have the rounds on the weapon fir a quick grab and go situation. Such cases, you don't have several minutes to gear up. You'd be lucky to have shoes honestly.

This bizarre comment pegs out the BS meter and seriously misleads the OP.

 

Let me add some common sense here: if you're worried about a grab and go, you simply stick a bandoleer full of shells next to wherever you keep your gun, and take the extra .000001 second that it would require to move your hand the extra inch to pick up the bandoleer in the same motion that you pick up the shotgun.

 

EDIT TO ADD: Please consider the following:

1) Remember that everything you add to the gun (sidesaddles, lights, optics, etc) adds weight and added weight can affect function. The number one requirement in a weapon is that it works, and if it has 10 pounds of stuff sticking off it, it is more likely to fail.

2) If one is truly, genuinely concerned about grab/go situations, then one doesn't buy (A) one of the heaviest shotguns out there, and (B) a semiauto; one buys a simple, light, pump shotgun. If you 'won't have time to get your shoes' you won't have time to locate your rail grease and lube materials, right?

3) Remember that if you are going to put a light on your shotgun to identify your target, you will have to point your weapon at your target to do so; if you have children in your house, ask yourself if you want to violate Rule 2 before you put a light on a HD weapon.

 

And if you're worried about not having time for shoes, what are you going to do, run into the woods barefooted?

 

This is either a very odd joke, or one of the least informed comments that I've seen on the subject. If I told my instructors that, well...I'm sure it's a joke. Let's leave it at that.

Edited March 3, 2011 by m4p226n
To add add'l info

[needncash]

This bizarre comment pegs out the BS meter and seriously misleads the OP.

 

 

And if you're worried about not having time for shoes, what are you going to do, run into the woods barefooted?

 

 

 

You might not agree but that does not give you an invitation to insert your foot into your mouth.

 

If someone kicks in my front door they will find me without shoes or clothes but I will have a firearm. So, no I won't be running outdoors barefoot but I dont sleep in boots either.

[StrangerDanger]

Reading comprehension is key.

 

Reminds me, I need to buy more rail grease for my M4 to avoid catastrophic failure. Thanks!

[Todd308]

Most of it is fluff, or useful for very particular situations that most people are never going to run into and it's just tacticool. You have to define what you are going to use the gun for. You also have to decide what kind of home defense you are going to do. Having done hundreds of house clearing drills, the best thing to do is get your family in a room and defend that room, if it comes through the door, you shoot it. If you want to go play mall ninja and clear your own house, you are asking to die, a armed burglar laying in wait for you even in a house he does not know will kill you 99 times out of 100, we've done it dozens of times in dozens of locations and it's always the same, whoever lays in wait wins. You will not sneak up on a burglar who is already wide awake and alert listening for you.

 

Now if you have family in different parts/floors of the house that's a different story and honestly the best bet is to rearrange things so at least everyone is on the same floor. Now if you have to go clear out buildings etc. on a ranch or such then your needs are slightly different, shots may be longer, etc.

 

Light: this is a must have for a defensive shotgun, besides being able to ID targets in the dark you gain the ability to stun/blind while you ID them. You want the smallest unit you can get, it's less weight and less likely to get caught on stuff. I personally like the surefire X300 style lights, compact and light. You also want a pressure switch somewhere you don't have to mess with it. It doesn't have to be super bright, anything over 100 lumens will do the job, too bright especially in closed areas with white walls and all you do is blind yourself.

 

Side carriers....I personally don't think there is any need in a home defense situation. If you can't handle the task in 9 rounds of 12ga you have much bigger problems. Multiple assailants maybe....but unless you are in a gang war or the zombies come I guarantee that if you put 2-3 of them down their buddies are going to leave. They add a lot of weight, and bulk to the gun. People say they don't mind the weight, but it slows their reaction time, and that's ONE thing that you definitely WILL need in such an encounter. I've yet to see a home shooting that 9 rounds of 12ga didn't get the job done. Is it better to have 20 rounds of 12ga than 9.....I suppose unless that extra 11 rounds adds a ton of bulk and weight to the gun. Having it on the gun is an advantage because when you wake up and crap is going wrong you do not want to have to find an ammo belt etc. you need to be able to grab and go. If high capacity was the only need in a shotgun we'd all own saigas with 20rd drums. Now if you need to have lethal/nonlethal ammo options or slugs/buckshot options then sure it's nice to have a few rounds on the gun. I don't consider this an issue for home defense because either slugs or buckshot are going to get the job done, and there's no place for non-lethal ammo in defense.

 

Aimpoints etc.....I've put hundreds of thousands of rounds through a shotgun so for me, it's a pointing instrument, a dot sight on it for me would just slow me down and annoy my field of view. Now if I was shooting slugs at ranges over 50-75 yards sure, but if I need to do that I'm not going to bring a 12ga to the party. Honestly in most home defense ranges you don't even need sights, with a properly mounted light, the right choke and ammo if the main beam of your light is on it, it dies when you pull the trigger. This is true of shotguns, rifles and handguns.

[m4p226n]

needncash wrote:

You might not agree but that does not give you an invitation to insert your foot into your mouth.

 

If someone kicks in my front door they will find me without shoes or clothes but I will have a firearm. So, no I won't be running outdoors barefoot but I dont sleep in boots either.

I'm glad that to hear that you don't sleep in your boots. That's good to know.

 

strangerdanger wrote:

Reading comprehension is key.

 

Reminds me, I need to buy more rail grease for my M4 to avoid catastrophic failure. Thanks!

 

The function of your M4 and the rails that your bolt slides on will benefit greatly by your decision to buy more grease but having owned numerous M4s (and having run many M models over the past 15 years or so) I can assure you that you need lose no sleep over catastrophic failure. That can only happen if you shoot without your shoes on.

 

To bring to bear the real issue here, let's explore your post again to address what you actually said, not what you may have meant.

 

My initial response was specifically directed toward your statement below, emphasis added by me:

The only benefit to having a shell carrier is to have the rounds on the weapon fir a quick grab and go situation. Such cases, you don't have several minutes to gear up. You'd be lucky to have shoes honestly.

 

7 or 8 rounds of 12 gauge should do most jobs though honestly. I do not want the added bulk and weight associated with a weapon mounted carrier. I do not care about the overall weight of the weapon because it is heavy. I care that the weight is slowing my reaction time down, or impeding my ability to shoulder the weapon for long periods of time.

If by grab and go you meant someone kicking down your door in the middle of the night, I would have agreed with your statement. But as you know, words mean things, and if you were simply speaking of an immediate home defense scenario, you would have no need to 'shoulder the weapon for long periods of time'. That comment is inconsistent with your assertion that you were talking about a HD scenario (unless of course you live in a castle with 70,000sf and anticipate that it may take an hour for the BG to find you). Short of that, your comment is a non sequitur.

 

Therefore, even someone with my...uh...suboptimal reading comprehension might reasonably interpret what you wrote to mean a 'bugout' situation, not a HD scenario.

[StrangerDanger]

You glanced right over the primary reason:

I care that the weight is slowing my reaction time down, or impeding my ability to shoulder the weapon for long periods of time.

 

Hold your shotgun at the ready for 5 minutes. They can get quite heavy fast. Especially on some of those 12, 13 and 14 pound sloths I've seen. I know everyone has "Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset" carved into their door frame. But in reality, not all events will end in a pile of shells and dead bodies. You may have someone at gunpoint until police arrive. If you're lucky, that's within 5 minutes.

 

There is nothing bugout about that.

 

Since you haven't figured out how to aim the weapon at the ground with the weapon light in order to illuminate a threat without putting the muzzle on them, how do you propose seeing in the dark to identify the targets?

 

Everyone should read Todd308's advice. Taking cover in a secure room is the best solution in most cases.

[xamoel]

@m4p226n:

You really seem to have profound knowledge of the Benelli M4, f.e. how many malfunctions are related to the weight of the gun. Are you really so ignorant? The M4 is a gas operated shotgun, and it isn't affected by weight.

And are you honestly trying to tell us, that you will outshoot the M4 with a pump? I'd love to see you try. No matter what pump you bring up, and no matter how fast you can pump it, the semi auto will win.

How about you start trolling somewhere else?

[Rob72]

This bizarre comment pegs out the BS meter and seriously misleads the OP.

 

Let me add some common sense here: if you're worried about a grab and go, you simply stick a bandoleer full of shells next to wherever you keep your gun, and take the extra .000001 second that it would require to move your hand the extra inch to pick up the bandoleer in the same motion that you pick up the shotgun.

 

EDIT TO ADD: Please consider the following:

1) Remember that everything you add to the gun (sidesaddles, lights, optics, etc) adds weight and added weight can affect function. The number one requirement in a weapon is that it works, and if it has 10 pounds of stuff sticking off it, it is more likely to fail.

2) If one is truly, genuinely concerned about grab/go situations, then one doesn't buy (A) one of the heaviest shotguns out there, and (B) a semiauto; one buys a simple, light, pump shotgun. If you 'won't have time to get your shoes' you won't have time to locate your rail grease and lube materials, right?

3) Remember that if you are going to put a light on your shotgun to identify your target, you will have to point your weapon at your target to do so; if you have children in your house, ask yourself if you want to violate Rule 2 before you put a light on a HD weapon.

 

And if you're worried about not having time for shoes, what are you going to do, run into the woods barefooted?

 

This is either a very odd joke, or one of the least informed comments that I've seen on the subject. If I told my instructors that, well...I'm sure it's a joke. Let's leave it at that.

Whom, exactly?

 

While I will agree on the lack of need for the uber-Ninja railedreddottedsidesadledcollapsingstocksinglpointslingXRail zombie gun, your thoughts on lighting are around 15 years behind current shotgun philosophy and practice.

 

Well maintained, "major maker" semis have no deficits in comparison to pumps, using defensive rounds, and at the entry level (i.e.,Moss 930) are arguably consistently more reliable than pumps (870 Express).

 

I have lived in places (Houston,TX; Wichita, KS) where a bandoleer hanging by the shotty was not out of place, but, as noted, a sidesaddle provides a single reload in a compact, handy package. And, in that context, and along with your thoughts on weight, I like the 3 GunGear product.

 

Of course, I'm also using the el-cheapo Stoeger M2000, which has a hard-point weight limit, unlike the auto-reg gas M4.

[m4p226n]

StrangerDanger,

It's clear to me now that you did not mean bugout. I have no desire to argue only for the sake of arguing, and I accept your explanation. Thank you for your clarification, and for the most part I agree with your point.

Since you haven't figured out how to aim the weapon at the ground with the weapon light in order to illuminate a threat without putting the muzzle on them, how do you propose seeing in the dark to identify the targets?

But as to how I will identify targets in the dark, this is a fair question and I'm happy to provide my perspective which will hopefully clarify my position. As you know there is a divergence of opinion about whether or not lights on a weapon are a good idea, especially in different scenarios. In no way am I implying that my way is the only way, I am simply offering my own perspective. Reasonable people can disagree. For the sake of discussion, I am referring to a HD situation vis a vis a law enforcement or military scenario.

This is what I said about this particular issue:

Please consider the following:

3) Remember that if you are going to put a light on your shotgun to identify your target, you will have to point your weapon at your target to do so; if you have children in your your house, ask yourself if you want to violate Rule 2 before you put a light on your HD weapon.

Here is my perspective: while you are illuminating the ground, you are also indirectly illuminating and silhouetting yourself and thereby unmistakably announcing your presence to the BG - hopefully while you're illuminating the floor, you won't see the BG standing in front of you smiling with his Glock pointed at your head. You will also cause yourself to experience momentary night-blindness even though you are pointing the light away from you. If you disagree, try this little experiment: allow your eyes to adjust to darkness at night sometime, and shine a 100 lumen flashlight at the floor in front of you. You will see that your night vision will momentarily be diminished.

Furthermore, it is rare that there will be total darkness in your home with absolutely no ambient light.

Lastly, this is irrelevant if you do not have other household members. If it's just you and your wife, and your wife is in your bed next to you when you are confronted with another person in your home, it is completely reasonable to assume that the person is an intruder and therefore is a threat to kill you or do you great bodily harm.

It is a misconception that this is a settled matter. There is disagreement among knowledgeable and rational people. I changed my own opinion on this after talking specifically with one of my instructors at Blackwater years ago about this very thing. As a matter of fact, I trained with a Sure Fire forend light with a pressure switch on an M1S90 that I used at a tactical shotgun course in 1995. I no longer use it for the reasons I mentioned, and I still have the forend. If you would like, I would be happy to sell it to you at an extreme discount.

I hope that this helps to clarify my own personal position on this matter for you.

[m4p226n]

@m4p226n:

You really seem to have profound knowledge of the Benelli M4, f.e. how many malfunctions are related to the weight of the gun. Are you really so ignorant? The M4 is a gas operated shotgun, and it isn't affected by weight.

And are you honestly trying to tell us, that you will outshoot the M4 with a pump? I'd love to see you try. No matter what pump you bring up, and no matter how fast you can pump it, the semi auto will win.

How about you start trolling somewhere else?

First of all, my suggestions were not specifically in reference to the M4. Re-read the title of this thread: 'Shell Carriers and other Tacticool stuff'. Since this is after all a Benelli forum and we're talking about Benellis, I'd like to remind you that although the M4 is of course gas-operated (duh), the M4 is not the only shotgun that Benelli makes. Perhaps you are ignorant of this fact, and unencumbered by any knowledge about any Benelli shotguns other than the M4, so I'll give you some homework: google Benelli M1S90, Benelli M2, and Benelli M3, all of which are recoil-operated. Go to the Benelli website and click on Models. Notice the many recoil-operated choices. So perhaps I'm not so ignorant after all.

 

As for trolling, I've been a member of this forum for longer than you have, and although I apparently hurt your feelings, you will get over it, don't worry.

 

Lastly, I have absolutely no idea where you came up with the notion that I in any way stated, implicitly or explicitly, that pumps were faster than semiautos. I would appreciate it if you didn't create straw men.

[m4p226n]

Whom, exactly?

 

While I will agree on the lack of need for the uber-Ninja railedreddottedsidesadledcollapsingstocksinglpointslingXRail zombie gun, your thoughts on lighting are around 15 years behind current shotgun philosophy and practice.

Is that so? Please post your authoritative source on 'current shotgun philosophy and practice'. Thank you.

Well maintained, "major maker" semis have no deficits in comparison to pumps, using defensive rounds, and at the entry level (i.e.,Moss 930) are arguably consistently more reliable than pumps (870 Express).

We certainly disagree on this. Edited March 3, 2011 by m4p226n
Content revision

[xamoel]

First of all, my suggestions were not specifically in reference to the M4. Re-read the title of this thread: 'Shell Carriers and other Tacticool stuff'. Since this is after all a Benelli forum and we're talking about Benellis, I'd like to remind you that although the M4 is of course gas-operated (duh), the M4 is not the only shotgun that Benelli makes. Perhaps you are ignorant of this fact, and unencumbered by any knowledge about any Benelli shotguns other than the M4, so I'll give you some homework: google Benelli M1S90, Benelli M2, and Benelli M3, all of which are recoil-operated. Go to the Benelli website and click on Models. Notice the many recoil-operated choices. So perhaps I'm not so ignorant after all.

 

As for trolling, I've been a member of this forum for longer than you have, and although I apparently hurt your feelings, you will get over it, don't worry.

 

Lastly, I have absolutely no idea where you came up with the notion that I in any way stated, implicitly or explicitly, that pumps were faster than semiautos. I would appreciate it if you didn't create straw men.

 

Great that you are here longer than me, hope it makes you feel proud.

Though you obviously didn't learn much from hanging around here.

 

Lol, you stated that you'd rather use a pump for HD than a semi-auto. I wish you the best of luck, don't die tryin.

[m4p226n]

Lol, you stated that you'd rather use a pump for HD than a semi-auto. I wish you the best of luck, don't die tryin.

I absolutely would. I love semiautos, but I guarantee that a trained person with a pump would have you in tears in a competition with you and your tacticool mallninjagunshopcommandopimpedout semiauto that you're afraid to shoot because you don't want to scratch your gold-plated 'tactical' safety, 'tactical' flashlight, 'tactical' optics, 'tactical' sling and 'tactical' collapsible stock. I bet you wear tiger stripes to the range.

 

Maybe you're a teenager, in which case I can understand you getting all puffed up like a bullfrog.

 

I'll leave it at that.

[drmarc]

I'm a newbie here but I must chime in to say that m4p226n set the tone with his first post in this thread. I know this will likely fall on deaf ears but perhaps a less abrasive response would have lessened the oneupmanship and saved some allot of typing.

 

Just two cents from a casual observer.

[xamoel]

Did I write anything about shell carriers or anything else of your mall ninja stuff? You should get your reading glasses, grandpa.

 

Sure, take your trusted ol' pump, you probably couldn't even hold a normal M4 with your arthritis.

[Rob72]

Is that so? Please post your authoritative source on 'current shotgun philosophy and practice'. Thank you.We certainly disagree on this.

Tom Givens and Louis Awerbuck, for startsies. But it sounds like you wouldn't be interested in much they might say. Se la vi.

 

Vocalizing ignorance makes you look foolish...or trolling.

 

Anyone on Enos' Forum running a pump in competition? Nope. Unless its pump-gun limited. But what would they know about GM class?

 

I do apologize, you neglected my question- from whom are you receiving instruction?

Edited March 3, 2011 by Rob72

[Rob72]

I'm a newbie here but I must chime in to say that m4p226n set the tone with his first post in this thread. I know this will likely fall on deaf ears but perhaps a less abrasive response would have lessened the oneupmanship and saved some allot of typing.

 

Just two cents from a casual observer.

I know, but sometimes you just have to kick that slinky over the next step.