922r, the new Benelli H2O, questions...and an answer?

[Unobtanium]

Twelve Big Wins for Gun Owners

 

Friday, November 18, 2011

 

The final conference report on the combined Fiscal Year 2012 Agriculture, Commerce/Justice/Science (CJS) and Transportation/Housing/Urban Development (THUD) Appropriations bills—also known as the "Mini-Bus,” was passed by both the U.S. House and the U.S. Senate, and has been signed into law.

 

One of the most important ways that Congress has protected the Second Amendment is through a number of general provisions included in various appropriations bills. Many of these provisions have been included in the bills for many years—some of the provisions go back almost three decades. This conference report is no exception, as it contains 12 provisions that strengthen the Second Amendment and protect the American people.

 

Specifically, the conference report makes PERMANENT the following protections:

 

Firearms Database/National Gun Registry Prohibition. No funds may be used to create, maintain or administer a database of firearms owners or their firearms. This prohibition has been in place since Fiscal Year 1979, and prevents the federal government from establishing a national gun registry.

Former Firearms Dealers Information Retrieval Prohibition. No funds may be used to electronically retrieve personally identifying information gathered by federal firearms licensees. The provision prohibits the creation of a gun registry from dealers’ records that are required by law to be surrendered to the federal government when a dealer goes out of business. This provision has been included since FY 1997.

Information Gathering Prohibition/24-Hour Destruction of Records. A prohibition on the use of funds to retain any information gathered as a part of an approved instant background check for more than 24 hours. This provision protects the privacy of law-abiding gun buyers by prohibiting gun buyers’ personal information about legal gun purchases from being retained by government authorities for more than 24 hours after a firearm background check. It has been included since FY 1999.

In addition, the conference report adds two NEW provisions designed to bolster our gun rights and protect the Second Amendment from unelected bureaucrats who would twist the law to facilitate their gun-control agenda.

 

Prohibit Funding for "Gun Walking” Operations. No funds may be used to knowingly transfer firearms to agents of drug cartels unless U.S. law enforcement personnel control or monitor the firearms at all time. This amendment is designed to prevent the Justice Department (or any government entity) from spending taxpayer dollars on "gun walking” programs like Operation Fast and Furious.

Shotgun Importation Protections. Prohibits the Department of Justice from requiring imported shotguns to meet a "sporting purposes” test that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) has used to prohibit the importation of shotguns with one or more features disliked by the Agency, such as adjustable stocks, extended magazine tubes, etc.

Finally, the conference report RETAINS the following provisions:

 

Curio and Relic Definition. A prohibition on the use of funds to change the definition of a "curio or relic.” This provision protects the status of collectible firearms for future generations of firearms collectors.

Physical Inventory Prohibition. Prohibition on a requirement to allow a physical inventory of Federal Firearms Licensees. The Clinton Administration proposed a rule in 2000 to require an annual inventory by all licensees. While the Bush Administration eventually withdrew the proposal, Congress has still passed this preventive provision every year since FY 2007.

Business Activity. A prohibition on the use of funds to deny a Federal Firearms License (FFL) or renewal of an FFL on the basis of low business activity. This provision prohibits BATFE from denying federal firearms license applications or renewals based on a dealer’s low business volume alone.

Firearms Trace Data Disclaimer. A requirement that any trace data released must include a disclaimer stating such trace data cannot be used to draw broad conclusion about firearms-related crime.

Firearms Parts Export to Canada. A prohibition on the use of funds to require an export license for small firearms parts valued at less than $500 for export to Canada. This provision removed an unnecessary and burdensome requirement on U.S. gun manufacturers that was imposed under the Clinton Administration.

Importation of Curios and Relics. A prohibition on the use of funds to arbitrarily deny importation of qualifying curio and relic firearms. This provision ensures that collectible firearms that meet all legal requirements for importation into the United States are not prevented from import by executive branch fiat.

Transfer of BATFE Authority. A prohibition on the use of funds to transfer any duty or responsibility of the BATFE to any other agency or department. This provision was written in response to a Clinton Administration plan to transfer firearms enforcement to the FBI or Secret Service. It also prohibits the Executive branch from skirting the will of Congress by allowing another agency to implement policies the BATFE is prohibited from implementing.

 

 

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[Unobtanium]

Also, this: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_1/367229_Benelli_M4_question.html

[Liet]

So what does this mean? 922r no longer applies to Shotguns?

[crofton]

So what does this mean? 922r no longer applies to Shotguns?

 

 

922r still APPLIES!

 

Within in the last three months NRA legal staff wrote a paragraph, it specifically stated (paraphrasing) "Mini-Bus" hasn't removed 922® compliance.

 

Sitting around, I decided to submit a request to NRA on Mini-Bus, immediately received the following:

 

From: ILA-Contact

Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:31 PM

To:

 

Subject: RE: NRA-ILA Contact Us: Logged In Member: 922 ® compliance

Thank you for contacting NRA-ILA.

 

 

The bill does not make any changes to the current regulations; it merely prevented any new restrictions.

 

 

Again, thank you for your inquiry and please do not hesitate to share any of your thoughts or concerns in the future.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

 

Kyle C

 

NRA-ILA Grassroots Division

 

 

Edited April 12, 2012 by crofton

[joshua1240]

The more I hear about 922r compatibility issues concerning the H2O, the more I wonder about the motivation of the people insinuating that there is a problem.

 

The general assumption seems to be that in its current configuration, without knowing the specs, that the weapon is not 922r compliant.

 

For that to be true it would indicate that the US manufacturer was wilfully disregarding US Law and entrapping consumers who go to pick up their new shotgun at their respective FFL.... only to discover Federal Agents ready to put them in jail. And yet, that isn't happening.

 

The manufacturer would also lose it's federal distribution license for not only these shotguns, but the hundreds of other firearms that make up the actual bulk of their product line. That's not happening either so we're 0 for 2.

 

Or maybe the BATF just decided to turn a blind-eye to this specific group of 1000+ weapons....right? Some guy spilled his coffee on the report and they just forgot about it. Nope, 0 for 3.

 

The reality is the firearm has been altered to meet the requirements under the law, the question remains what has been replaced.

 

There is no smoke and mirror show here guys, it's a legal gun that meets 922r specifications. If you can't afford it quit trying to drum up reasons why others should not be able to own it.

[Sukhoi_fan]

What a complete load of horse hockey. A semi-auto with a 'collapsible' (not really as it only telescopes in about 5.5") stock and a hi-cap mag is available simply because it's been (re-)'manufactured' by a 'licensee' yet if some private party fails to dot their i's and cross their t's while matching the exact same configuration currently commercially available then they are subject to being charged with a felony. Bizzarro world!

[12508]

The more I hear about 922r compatibility issues concerning the H2O, the more I wonder about the motivation of the people insinuating that there is a problem.

 

The general assumption seems to be that in its current configuration, without knowing the specs, that the weapon is not 922r compliant.

 

For that to be true it would indicate that the US manufacturer was wilfully disregarding US Law and entrapping consumers who go to pick up their new shotgun at their respective FFL.... only to discover Federal Agents ready to put them in jail. And yet, that isn't happening.

 

The manufacturer would also lose it's federal distribution license for not only these shotguns, but the hundreds of other firearms that make up the actual bulk of their product line. That's not happening either so we're 0 for 2.

 

Or maybe the BATF just decided to turn a blind-eye to this specific group of 1000+ weapons....right? Some guy spilled his coffee on the report and they just forgot about it. Nope, 0 for 3.

 

The reality is the firearm has been altered to meet the requirements under the law, the question remains what has been replaced.

 

There is no smoke and mirror show here guys, it's a legal gun that meets 922r specifications. If you can't afford it quit trying to drum up reasons why others should not be able to own it.

 

I think from the buyer's standpoint, the H2O and 922r is a non issue.

The law states that it is unlawful to ASSEMBLE a shotgun with so many imported parts.

Benelli is the one doing the assembling, not the buyer. The regulation does not cover Possession, only assembling.

 

I think you could also argue in a test case that joe blow buying an 11707 and adding a mag tube in "violation" of the law is not "assembling" a shotgun, merely modifying. I'd make the argument that only licesned manufacturers can "assemble" and import a firearm.

 

I have two H20s and I find the finish to be severly lacking on BOTH. However, from a features/compliance standpoint they are worth the money.

[joshua1240]

What a complete load of horse hockey. A semi-auto with a 'collapsible' (not really as it only telescopes in about 5.5") stock and a hi-cap mag is available simply because it's been (re-)'manufactured' by a 'licensee' yet if some private party fails to dot their i's and cross their t's while matching the exact same configuration currently commercially available then they are subject to being charged with a felony. Bizzarro world!

 

If Joe Schmo goes in and replaces BATF identified parts on a semi-auto shotgun with US parts until the magic number is reached, and then adds the C-Stock and mag tube then the weapon is fully compliant. Benelli did this for all of us and threw in an NP3 finish.

 

This weapon is 922r compliant because the factory here in the States made it 922r compliant by doing what any regular Joe in the States could do, but they did so at a total cost savings to you the consumer.

[joshua1240]

I think from the buyer's standpoint, the H2O and 922r is a non issue.

The law states that it is unlawful to ASSEMBLE a shotgun with so many imported parts.

Benelli is the one doing the assembling, not the buyer. The regulation does not cover Possession, only assembling.

 

I don't think this is what is happening. Benelli USA just importing the parts and assembling them and then slapping a new finish on them and selling them to the consumer. I really doubt this, and I could be wrong since we are all guessing, but here's 922 paragraph R:

 

"It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to--

 

(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or

 

(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General."

The portions of sub-paragraph 1 mention what you are describing, but they speak to the sale of weapons by licensed manufacturers to the United States, State Departments or Agencies or Political Subdivisons. It doesn't talk about sale to non-governmental bodies such as individual consumers. You're talking about a loophole which I do not think exists.

 

But you've got 2 of them, why not check the internals for the US stamps?

 

[12508]

There is no loophole, I am referring to what the law actually says. You actually posted it. It is the Paragraph before (1).

 

The assembly prohibition merely doesn't apply to sales to gov'tl agencies.

Again, the key word is ASSEMBLY, not possession.

 

Even if Benelli broke the law, I don't care. I didn't ASSEMBLE it, I am a mere possessor.

 

I have taken them down and there are no "made in usa" stampings.

[crofton]

 

I have taken them down and there are no "made in usa" stampings.

 

 

dang, that is very, very interesting!

[12508]

dang, that is very, very interesting!

 

Yup. I have posted pics here once before.

If I get time this weekend I will do it again and look in more closely but the trigger assembly looks

like a standard unit with grey coating.

[Unobtanium]

Benelli obviously sells and deals with the military and LE. I find it hard to believe that they are blatantly violating the law. There is something going on here that we are not understanding/seeing. If this was Bubba in his shop customizing shotguns one-by-one, I would be rather certain that something was very illegal about it. But this isn't Bubba. It's Arnaldo, and his shop is very, very big...

Edited April 13, 2012 by Unobtanium

[joshua1240]

There is no loophole, I am referring to what the law actually says. You actually posted it. It is the Paragraph before (1).

 

The assembly prohibition merely doesn't apply to sales to gov'tl agencies.

Again, the key word is ASSEMBLY, not possession.

 

Even if Benelli broke the law, I don't care. I didn't ASSEMBLE it, I am a mere possessor.

 

I have taken them down and there are no "made in usa" stampings.

 

The law talks about assembling a banned import model as a non-governmental body, as a civilian. You really think this is how it works? You just go out and buy a gun that is illegal to import and nobody bats an eye? You can't own a banned item. Please don't cloud the waters with your misinterpretation.

 

They (Benelli) cannot import a banned firearm for sale to civilians, and they cannot on the same coin assemble an unbanned configuration into a banned configuration for sale to civilians.

 

This is why I made my original post...people are confusing the situation without going into a little place I like to call Realityville. No gun manufacturer is going to risk their federal distribution license by selling an illegal weapon.

 

You can't own a banned gun, you can't assemble parts into a banned gun and you can't be sold a banned gun by a manufacturer authorized to assemble said gun if you are not a government agency. That's what 922r says, not your rose colored glass version.

Edited April 13, 2012 by joshua1240

[joshua1240]

Benelli obviously sells and deals with the military and LE. I find it hard to believe that they are blatantly violating the law. There is something going on here that we are not understanding/seeing. If this was Bubba in his shop customizing shotguns one-by-one, I would be rather certain that something was very illegal about it. But this isn't Bubba. It's Arnaldo, and his shop is very, very big...

 

There, you explained it better than I did.

[crofton]

Yup. I have posted pics here once before.

If I get time this weekend I will do it again and look in more closely but the trigger assembly looks

like a standard unit with grey coating.

 

 

when you break it down, also look at:

 

. the magazine and follower

. both sides of the hammer and trigger

. inside of the hand-guards

 

Stranger and stranger.

 

Thanks for taking the time to research the markings.

[12508]

The law talks about assembling a banned import model as a non-governmental body, as a civilian. You really think this is how it works? You just go out and buy a gun that is illegal to import and nobody bats an eye? You can't own a banned item. Please don't cloud the waters with your misinterpretation.

 

They (Benelli) cannot import a banned firearm for sale to civilians, and they cannot on the same coin assemble an unbanned configuration into a banned configuration for sale to civilians.

 

This is why I made my original post...people are confusing the situation without going into a little place I like to call Realityville. No gun manufacturer is going to risk their federal distribution license by selling an illegal weapon.

 

You can't own a banned gun, you can't assemble parts into a banned gun and you can't be sold a banned gun by a manufacturer authorized to assemble said gun if you are not a government agency. That's what 922r says, not your rose colored glass version.

My interpretation is just fine, thank you. The M4 is not a banned shotgun.

Show me the law that says possession of such a weapon is a crime. Again, let Benelli do what they want. I am only concerned about the law as the BUYER. A buyer of an H2O is NOT an assembler.

You can't be charged with a crime that isn't on the books.

Edited April 13, 2012 by 12508

[Unobtanium]

My interpretation is just fine, thank you. The M4 is not a banned shotgun.

Show me the law that says possession of such a weapon is a crime. Again, let Benelli do what they want. I am only concerned about the law as the BUYER. A buyer of an H2O is NOT an assembler.

You can't be charged with a crime that isn't on the books.

 

Sure you can, they create laws for you to be found guilty of violating every day.

 

However, I get your point. Buy with confidence imo. I have yet to see 922r prosecution regarding any Benelli product at any point in time.

[joshua1240]

My interpretation is just fine, thank you. The M4 is not a banned shotgun.

Show me the law that says possession of such a weapon is a crime. Again, let Benelli do what they want. I am only concerned about the law as the BUYER. A buyer of an H2O is NOT an assembler.

You can't be charged with a crime that isn't on the books.

 

The M4 in combat configuration with all Italian made parts is a BANNED shotgun for non-government sale. I get your reasoning, but you are plain wrong.

 

Do you understand confiscation rules for banned goods? Go to a range with a banned weapon, have any federal law enforcement official catch you with said weapon, and say bye bye to your gun. Same thing goes for Cuban cigars, endangered animal pelts etc..

 

Benelli has altered this shotguns internals to comply with US law in order to sell it to consumers in this configuration. As stated before, WHAT has been modified in the weapon is the question. Your interpretation of 922r is incorrect.

[Pudmullet]

I spoke with Benelli USA a while back when I ordered my H2O and they told me that it is coming into the country as a standard M4. Parts are being replaced, (the tube being one, I think), then being coated and sold....this is something you guys probably already know.

[12508]

The M4 in combat configuration with all Italian made parts is a BANNED shotgun for non-government sale. I get your reasoning, but you are plain wrong.

 

Do you understand confiscation rules for banned goods? Go to a range with a banned weapon, have any federal law enforcement official catch you with said weapon, and say bye bye to your gun. Same thing goes for Cuban cigars, endangered animal pelts etc..

 

Benelli has altered this shotguns internals to comply with US law in order to sell it to consumers in this configuration. As stated before, WHAT has been modified in the weapon is the question. Your interpretation of 922r is incorrect.

 

It is not incorrect. It is based upon assembling a shotgun, not POSSESSION.

Again, you're theory is based upon a banned shotgun.

The M4 is not banned as imported yes, we agree.

The H2O is assembled by Benelli. I don't care what they have or have not done to it, 922R DOES NOT APPLY TO POSSESSION.

 

What don't you get?

 

Under 922r you are fine.

 

Here are the requested pics. It seems the mag tube probably has been replaced. However, it would look like that whether a factory or aftermarket tube was removed and or removed and replaced/coated.

Edited April 13, 2012 by 12508

[12508]

More pics

[12508]

The tube threads.

 

Back to the coating- this gun had a frozen piston that required yanking with my fingers to free up.

I have mentioned before my other M4 H2O had a stuck shell drop lever . . .

 

Hope this helps those concerned . . .

[joshua1240]

It is not incorrect. It is based upon assembling a shotgun, not POSSESSION.

Again, you're theory is based upon a banned shotgun.

The M4 is not banned as imported yes, we agree.

The H2O is assembled by Benelli. I don't care what they have or have not done to it, 922R DOES NOT APPLY TO POSSESSION.

 

What don't you get?

 

Under 922r you are fine.

 

So your whole point is 922r doesn't address possession of a banned firearm? Lol...call a spade a spade man...the word banned means you can't have it. Even if you want it really really badly. Sure you can possess a banned item all day long. **** there's even a term for it, illegal possession.

 

Thank you for the pics btw, but the rep talked about in other threads here indicated nothing in the trigger assembly was replaced with US parts.

[joshua1240]

Why is your trigger guard black 12508? Is that lighting or have you been tinkering?

 

This is what that sucker should look like:

Edited April 13, 2012 by joshua1240