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Trial install on M4


NHnewbie

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Did a trial install of some of the stuff I plan to hang on my M4. Includes SideArmor Entry full length rail (with two removable side rails and 8 round shell carrier), Trijicon RX30-23 reflex sight, X400U with XT07 tail cap/switch. This all seems to play together nicely. The cable on the XT07 is just the right length to route over the top rail (through a slot under the sight) with the switch pad mounted on the RH side rail. Makes a nice tidy installation with a minimum of cable hanging out where it can get snagged on something. So far I don't see any issue with this set up, but I havent shot it yet. Weight may become an issue. With the standard 11707 stock and standard mag tube but no ammo, the gun weighs 10.6 lbs. Will get some improvement going to the CC mag tube. Also intend to put a Benelli c-stock on it, but don't know how this will affect weight. For comparison, I weighed my Tavor SAR rifle which is set up almost identically, and it comes in at 10.0 lbs. without mag. So, would lighter be better? Sure. However I wont be lugging this around in the field (except maybe for occasional training) and wont be using it for competition,, so I am not yet too concerned about weight. In any event, I cant see how to get the weight down a lot. Maybe a lb by replacing the SideArmor with a short rail and the sight with a mini red dot like the Trijicon RMR. Will post some pix once I figure out how to do that here.

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What is the desired goal for the M4? A shotgun is meant to be fast, quick to point at moving close range targets. This is why a lot of three gunners to with the M2 over the M4. It's quicker to engage targets.

 

To to post pictures, I found it best to host them on photobucket. It'll let then you copy the url with the image brackets already around the address.

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I think once you get 9 shells in the gun and 8 more on the sidesaddle and get it out into the field and start engaging targets you'll understand why we are such jerks about weight! I put 175 rounds through my 8lb 14" M4 yesterday and the biggest complaint is too much weight on the muzzle end when moving quickly between targets. Weight on the muzzle end was also my primary motivation for getting the 14".

 

Full disclosure... I used to own an all aluminum 8 round sidesaddle / top rail combo on my 18.5". Loved it until I shot it while on the move.

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I hear the concerns about weight. Will do a careful weight budget to determine alternatives. The ammo in and on the gun will no doubt dominate no matter how it is attached. IOW, if you want the ammo, you have to deal with the weight. The shell carrier does snap off easily so offers the option of ditching it if conditions warrant. If the long rail is removed something will need to replace it to mount the sight and light.

Edited by NHnewbie
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Is your mag tube on order yet? I hear Kip is taking orders again. Are you looking for a C-Stock...its a great way, if you run it in the middle position, to get the proper sight picture with your optic while getting a 2" shorter LOP. I'd recommend moving the reflex sight to the rear of the receiver rail for a sight distance closer to your other long guns (measure nose to optic and you'll see what I mean).

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Well that is certainly impressive looking.

 

I'm gonna make a comment, which I hope you do not take it negatively. It's not meant to be disrespectful. But have you noticed, in general, on the range and in online photos and videos, the noobs pile on the accessories, and the pros have stripped down guns. That's what we call a "clue". You spend a bunch of time on the range, moving around and shooting stuff, all the extra weight is gonna get old fast.

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Keeping the firearm light and clean enhances everything it was built to do. The only things I've added to my M4 are a 6x sidesaddle and RMR with the amber triangle. There has to be a simple way to run a light and with the RMR only taking up 1 1/4" of the factory rail I still have options although I haven't wanted a light yet. KISS is a valuable rule.

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I have wondered about those Trijicon sights - let us know how you like it. I went the Aimpoint T-1 route. What cleaning stand/rest are you using in those pics? I need something similar - looks very handy.

 

The cleaning stand is an MTM RMC-5 available at Amazon and the other usual places - about $30

 

Choosing a sight is kinda like choosing a wife. There are no perfect ones out there, so every choice comes with compromises/tradeoffs. I have tried a wide range sights and like the wide field of view and always on aspect of the Trijicon reflex. But the choice is highly subjective and YMMV.

Edited by NHnewbie
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Is your mag tube on order yet? I hear Kip is taking orders again. Are you looking for a C-Stock...its a great way, if you run it in the middle position, to get the proper sight picture with your optic while getting a 2" shorter LOP. I'd recommend moving the reflex sight to the rear of the receiver rail for a sight distance closer to your other long guns (measure nose to optic and you'll see what I mean).

 

Ordered a few weeks ago, but based on comments here I dont expect to see it in my lifetime. Thinking of ordering an FFT tube to use now and replacing it with the CC if it shows up. I have a c-stock and will install it when I do the final build. Still experimenting with the position of the sight.

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Well that is certainly impressive looking.

 

I'm gonna make a comment, which I hope you do not take it negatively. It's not meant to be disrespectful. But have you noticed, in general, on the range and in online photos and videos, the noobs pile on the accessories, and the pros have stripped down guns. That's what we call a "clue". You spend a bunch of time on the range, moving around and shooting stuff, all the extra weight is gonna get old fast.

 

No offense taken. I get it. My reason for posting is to get opinions of others more experienced than I am. This is a backup HD gun. Primary is a pistol. I will train with this a few times a year and it will sit in the corner waiting to fulfill its mission the other 361 days of the year. If the time should come, it is unlikely I will be dressed in my camo battle gear with chest rig on (more likely skivies) so being able to grab the gun in a ready to go status may be important. So far I am pretty sure I want a light and a red dot on the gun. Once I get it together and have some experience with it I can do some finer tuning. It will not have any more on it than is shown (no bayonet, etc as shown on other threads here) and may have less.

Edited by NHnewbie
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NHNewbie,.........are you able to get any type of cheek weld on the stock with that optic?

Put a T1 on my new M4 and even with the factory mount, I had more of a chin weld than cheek.

Believe I will end up with an adjustable stock or a Urbino.

 

With the pictured stock it is definitely a "chin" weld! I have a c-stock which I hope will be better. With all the comments here on weight, I may ditch the Trijicon and rely on the stock sights, possibly with the Meprolight night sights.

Edited by NHnewbie
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Have you looked at the weight savings from going from the Trijicon RX30-23 reflex sight to an Aimpoint T1 2moa dot optic on a LaRue low mount? This package would save you nearly half a pound of weight, and shift the weight profile further to the rear.

 

You could then go to an AVA Tactical light mount solution and sell off the heavy SideArmor rail. If you wanted the shell carrier option, you could use a 3Gun Gear velcro system that adds virtually no weight when not used. It also crushes flat when no shells are present. The velcro pieces are called cards, so you can have multiple cards that you can strip on and off of the velcro receiver piece for lighting fast reloads.

 

I'd recommend the collapsible stock so you could ride it in the middle position. This puts your cheek weld at the perfect height for a low profile optic such as the Aimpoint T1.

 

I'd recommend installing a true spec picatinny top rail. Freedom Fighter Tactical makes a nice unit since carriercomp's are unavailable.

 

If you're not dead set on having the carriercomp tube, get the Freedom Fighter Tactical titanium tube. The weight profile is virtually the same. You'll see a weight savings of about 5 ounces, but much of this will be negated by the weight of the two additional shells it will carry.

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BW: How'd you make that shortie top rail? Just saw one off to where you needed it? Did you install cap screws over the unused mounting points?

 

The only thing I'd change on that 14" is the rear sling mount. I'd use the IWC MOE mount on the right side of the collapsible stock. I'd also go with a low profile Aimpoint mount. I tried this arrangement, but felt like I was chicken winging it. I really like the padded Blue Force Gear VCAS with QD ends sewn in.

 

If 2moa is too small, there is a 4moa option available. The T1 I have on my M4 is a 4moa. I'd rather have the 2moa for longer range slug shots though. It's just not worth the price point to "upgrade." I'd probably get the LaRue mount that doesn't have the throw lever either. There is a slight weight reduction, but mainly it is less of a snag hazard.

 

Fully loaded, mines about 9 - 9.5 pounds (accuracy of my bathroom scale.)

DSC00034_zps59f9ad40.jpg~original

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This is a backup HD gun. Primary is a pistol. I will train with this a few times a year and it will sit in the corner waiting to fulfill its mission the other 361 days of the year.

 

We use pistols because we can't carry long guns everywhere. That's the only reason. Pistols suck in general. They shoot weak bullets, and they're hard to hit with.

 

So why you'd pick one of those over your awesome Benelli for home defense, I have no idea.

 

Training 4 times a year really isn't training. But good luck either way.

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BW: How'd you make that shortie top rail? Just saw one off to where you needed it? Did you install cap screws over the unused mounting points?

 

Some of setups are for fun.....some for run. The one above can't get much lighter; even to the point of having 3" of excess factory rail that is not needed if you plan on using an mounted optic; if not remove the factory rail too and plug the holes for cosmetics.

 

To minimize weight I will set some up with 2" rail segments, depending on the rail I might have to modify the hole placement to match the receiver rails, others seem to fit their 2-hole just about perfectly over receiver holes #1 & #3. The position of the short rail over the existing rail holes to use may be different for some depending on their eye relief to the optic requirements......using a collapsible stock increases choices. You can always tap and thread the receiver for additional screw locations if needed. You can also purchase blank picatinny rails to machine or already fabricated and just cut to length.

 

Some examples of optics that can be used on the short rail segments, the optical height axis of course will have to be suited to the user.

 

Yes, I use some plug screws as needed for cosmetics only.

 

Screenshot2014-01-08at92926AM_zpsf3473613.png

Screenshot2014-01-08at93028AM_zps7a46aa3c.png

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So why you'd pick one of those over your awesome Benelli for home defense, I have no idea.

Training 4 times a year really isn't training. But good luck either way.

 

My choice of a handgun as a primary HD/SD firearm was so that my wife (a 98 lb weakling) would/could train with me. We tried rifles and shotguns and found that she could barely shoulder an 8-10 lb long gun let alone maneuver it and manage malfunctions. We found a suitable .357 revolver that she can handle well and enjoys shooting. This also allows the option of carry, which is challenging with a long gun. She has become reasonably proficient with this and I now refer to her as "Dirty Harriett." With modern defensive ammo at interior engagement distances of one to seven yards, there is an excellent chance of getting the job done. Are there tradeoffs associated with this choice? Sure, but this solution is better than struggling with a long gun she is not confident or proficient with.

As for training, the four days mentioned above were for shotgun training only. We train at Sig Academy and also with a retired LEO firearms instructor on a one-on-one basis, as well as regular trips to the range for practice. Firearms and shooting sports are not a "lifestyle" activity for us. We have a more than full agenda apart from this and have neither the time or inclination to train to SWAT or SEAL levels. We want to be safe (in the sense of gun safety) and reasonably proficient. Once again, this is a choice, and all choices come with tradeoffs. So far this choice seems to be working for us, but we may reach a different conclusion as time goes by.

Edited by NHnewbie
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We found a suitable .357 revolver that she can handle well and enjoys shooting. This also allows the option of carry, which is challenging with a long gun. She has become reasonably proficient with this and I now refer to her as "Dirty Harriett."

 

How is a .357 Magnum revolver easier to handle than say, a Glock 19?

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