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Unobtanium

FFT vs. TTI...extended shell carriers

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Well, since FFT's website says they're in Pre-Order status, I doubt there's anyone who can vouch for them. I've got Tarans on all my M1/M2's now and they work great. Haven't had a feeding issue that could be traced back to them. It must be said, however, I never had a feeding issue with the OEM's. The primary reason for the original modifications that were made to OEM's was the thumb catching between the carrier and the receiver when loading old-school underneath. (that's just gauche today - if you're not doing the load-2 or load-4 or load-6 or whatever the latest high-speed technique is, you're just behind the times) The newfangled loading procedures, at least for competition, seems to have eliminated the need for that modification since the thumb isn't in the same position while loading shells. Anyway, I digress :D. I still do it old-school, one at a time, underneath. If it was good enough for daddy it's still good enough for me. ;)

Edited by truckcop

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I load two at a time in competition and the stock carrier will tear your thumb up. I have the TTI and it has worked flawlessly. And I have kept the skin on my thumb.

 

Mike

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Would this also help loading with gloves on? I always get the leather pinched . . .

 

Yep, most likely, depending on the type of gloves.

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I called FFT. They confirm that their lifter IS NOT HEAT TREATED.

 

Now at first, this seems like a bad thing. However, I cancelled my TTI order because TTI claims they ARE heat-treated.

 

So why kill the TTI order?

 

Because you CANNOT heat-treat 304SS, which both are made of. You CAN anneal it, but annealing actually softens the metal, which work-hardens from being cold worked. Cold worked like formed in a die. Like a shotgun shell lifter would be...

 

If the 304SS can be worked into shape without annealing it, this is best, but if too much working is required, annealing might be necessary to continue working it. This has many implications for the TTI and FFT followers. Ultimately though, annealing is part of the process of working with 304SS sometimes, and NOT "a heat treatment" in the sense people normally associate it. It softens the metal so it can be worked more, which again work hardens it. It is not some "final form" treatment like it would be with a knife blade or something.

 

So from what I gather, the TTI is actually the worser product, on paper, based on my understandings of working with 304SS. Here is more data:

 

http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/stainless/austenitic/304_304l_data_bulletin.pdf

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I called FFT. They confirm that their lifter IS NOT HEAT TREATED.

 

Now at first, this seems like a bad thing. However, I cancelled my TTI order because TTI claims they ARE heat-treated.

 

So why kill the TTI order?

 

Because you CANNOT heat-treat 304SS, which both are made of. You CAN anneal it, but annealing actually softens the metal, which work-hardens from being cold worked. Cold worked like formed in a die. Like a shotgun shell lifter would be...

 

If the 304SS can be worked into shape without annealing it, this is best, but if too much working is required, annealing might be necessary to continue working it. This has many implications for the TTI and FFT followers. Ultimately though, annealing is part of the process of working with 304SS sometimes, and NOT "a heat treatment" in the sense people normally associate it. It softens the metal so it can be worked more, which again work hardens it. It is not some "final form" treatment like it would be with a knife blade or something.

 

So from what I gather, the TTI is actually the worser product, on paper, based on my understandings of working with 304SS. Here is more data:

 

http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/stainless/austenitic/304_304l_data_bulletin.pdf

 

Has anybody complained about the TTI's breaking?

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Has anybody complained about the TTI's breaking?

 

Not that I am aware of. However, noone complained of the Design Concepts CH breaking either. Yet everyone really liked the A2 steel tang Kip used...

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I've probably got at least 5 thousand rounds through my primary skeet gun, a M1, since installing my TTI carrier. Having just taken a look at it I find no discernible wear nor deformation. As I noted previously, there have been absolutely no feeding issues that could be traced back to the carrier. Regardless of how they form it, treat it, or bless it, it works and that's the bottom line. Based on other FFT products that I've used, I imagine that once their carrier starts shipping, theirs will work just as well.

Edited by truckcop

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I'm curious why the cutout is there in the first place.

 

If competition guys want them welded up, why wouldn't combat guys want the same thing.

 

It must serve a purpose.

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I'm curious why the cutout is there in the first place.

 

If competition guys want them welded up, why wouldn't combat guys want the same thing.

 

It must serve a purpose.

 

Mid-way down the page, you find your answer:

http://forums.brianenos.com/index.php?/topic/238888-opinions-on-benelli-barrel-throating/

 

Problem:

Shot a local match this weekend.

Had some failures to feed.

No sharp spots in extractor, new carrier spring reduced issues, using motor oil seemed to work best.

Springs are all new, changed bit by bit, factory weights.

Still, had to give the bolt handle a whack a lot.

 

Insight:

I will put a bend back in the nose of the TTI lifter. As new I could really feel it while loading. Shell rims were really clicking on the nose, and I straightened it out.

Solution:

You have induced your problem by straightening the nose of the lifter. It needs a little bit of bend down at the front to keep it from overly lifting the shell into the upper locking lug recess and jamming, about 8-10 degrees

 

 

That is the reason for the V-cut. It allows the lifter to be perfectly straight (simpler/easier to make en mass) and PRECISELY lifts the shell JUST the right amount, since the shell has a round rim, and it should be obvious what a well-measured and placed V-cut will do regarding this operation, given the round rim it will interface with.

 

In short, I have deduced that Benelli chose to make a V-cut that can be easily and precisely replicated en mass, vs die forming the lifters very precisely on the end, which likely would result in a higher rate of failures as tolerances waver over time with something like that much moreso than they would the V-cut.

 

If anyone has a better idea, I'd be more than open to it!

 

*If you read further, the OP changed other things and got the gun running again. I still think the observations on lifter profile are accurate.

Edited by Unobtanium

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Here is Benelli's official answer...and I kindof don't agree, rofl!

Oh sweet lord. This is what Benelli CS had to say when I asked the same question....

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is for the thumb to have extra clearance when loading. As for the aftermarket parts we cannot guarantee that they will function properly in the gun.

Sincerely,

 

image001.jpg

 

TechSupport1

Technical Service Representative

Benelli USA, 901 8th Street

Pocomoke, MD, 21851

p: 1-800-264-4962 option 2

f: 410-957-4184

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Here is Benelli's official answer...and I kindof don't agree, rofl!

Oh sweet lord. This is what Benelli CS had to say when I asked the same question....

 

I always thought that was what it was for as well. Also as a shell guide. But then I wondered why it acted so well as to guide the thumb into a chomping position! I also wondered why if it worked so well, why all the guys who are so good at shooting shotguns welded it up!

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I called FFT. They confirm that their lifter IS NOT HEAT TREATED.

 

Now at first, this seems like a bad thing. However, I cancelled my TTI order because TTI claims they ARE heat-treated.

 

So why kill the TTI order?

 

Because you CANNOT heat-treat 304SS, which both are made of. You CAN anneal it, but annealing actually softens the metal, which work-hardens from being cold worked. Cold worked like formed in a die. Like a shotgun shell lifter would be...

 

If the 304SS can be worked into shape without annealing it, this is best, but if too much working is required, annealing might be necessary to continue working it. This has many implications for the TTI and FFT followers. Ultimately though, annealing is part of the process of working with 304SS sometimes, and NOT "a heat treatment" in the sense people normally associate it. It softens the metal so it can be worked more, which again work hardens it. It is not some "final form" treatment like it would be with a knife blade or something.

 

So from what I gather, the TTI is actually the worser product, on paper, based on my understandings of working with 304SS. Here is more data:

 

http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/stainless/austenitic/304_304l_data_bulletin.pdf

 

 

I wonder if the ad copy for the TTI product was written by someone that does not understand metal or manufacturing...also, for the longest time that TTI lifter was advertised as also fitting the Versamax when everyone knew the Versamax lifter was longer (I see a note has since been added that addresses that issue)

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My FFT just arrived in the mail this morning. I don't know when I'll get the change to take it out shoting again, but I did get it quickly installed just fine. Now I'm just chomping at the bits for my magainze tube from Carrier Comp to come in.

314401w.jpg

r70w83.jpg

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I installed the FFT extended carrier yesterday and the only problem I saw was it was a bit too snug to move freely. The area where the large pin goes through was rubbing on both sides. It may have worn in with use, but I used a small screwdriver to pry (sprain) the carrier out just a tiny bit until it started working. I could not visibly see that I had spread the carrier, but it freed up perfectly and now works slickly. Now I admit, I do not shoot my 1014 as it is a low serial number and is not used as a utility gun, and has had only 10 or so rounds fired through it, so things are pretty much factory snug. Even having only taken it to the range once, the stock shell lifter was a thumb wrinkles and cuticle eater. The FFT shell lifter does not bite at all.

Edited by badkins100

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These have been out a good like while, now. I am curious:

 

Failures?

Issues?

Good things?

Bad things?

 

What are the experiences with fit/finish? The only review in this thread indicates that it was lacking.

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