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RPC

Rethinking my HD Ammo

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... and by “rethinking”, I didn’t do a significant amount of thinking beyond a few hours of web reading and coming to the conclusion that a case of Federal LE 00 and a case of Federal LE slug should meet my needs. 

For context, I keep 7+1+1 of LE 00 loaded and always in the safe.

The more I think about it though, I have a family of four in a typical CA home and, should I ever have to deploy the M4 in an HD situation, I will have to make split-second decisions about in what direction I can’t let 00 fly because I have kids or a wife sleeping in that direction.

My question: I know ammo choice is about as personal as that of underwear or  personal vehicle, but can any of you offer links/SMEs/etc. on how to make an informed decision on 12ga. HD ammo?

Totally understand and appreciate the “try and test” recommendations but, for obvious reasons, “testing” 12ga. HD ammo in appropriately dynamic situations isn’t really an option. 

So I’m left asking for help deciding on 12ga. HD ammo. Any thoughts, references or data is highly appreciated. 

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One option is #4 buck in 2 3/4". Much less effective range than 00 and sheet rock really taxes #4 buck's energy.

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5 minutes ago, Sukhoi_fan said:

One option is #4 buck in 2 3/4". Much less effective range than 00 and sheet rock really taxes #4 buck's energy.

Yeah, buck #4 is something I’ve read a lot about recently. Would be happy to stock & load this if anywhere close to the general consensus.   

For example: Hevi-shot’s Dead Coyote loads continue to come up among several other options. 

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I checked out Hevi-Shot's Dead Coyote. Kinda thin on info on their website but I did see they list the MV at 1,350 FPS. WTH is "T shot"??? They list "T shot" and 00 buck in 3" and up shells - seems like a limit on mag capacity. I cannot see anywhere on their website where they explain what "T shot" is.

I was thinking from your OP you were wanting to tone it down due to the possibility of collateral damage. Federal lists their #4 buck at 1,100 FPS. I would suggest sticking to the tried and true as opposed to some exotic ammo.

https://www.federalpremium.com/shotshell/premium-slug-buckshot/vital-shok-buckshot/11-P158+4B.html

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My m4 is stuffed with slugs right next to me.

I have an 870 stuffed with buck and a 9 with hollowpoints.

Variety is the spice of life

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8 hours ago, Sukhoi_fan said:

I checked out Hevi-Shot's Dead Coyote. Kinda thin on info on their website but I did see they list the MV at 1,350 FPS. WTH is "T shot"??? They list "T shot" and 00 buck in 3" and up shells - seems like a limit on mag capacity. I cannot see anywhere on their website where they explain what "T shot" is.

I was thinking from your OP you were wanting to tone it down due to the possibility of collateral damage. Federal lists their #4 buck at 1,100 FPS. I would suggest sticking to the tried and true as opposed to some exotic ammo.

https://www.federalpremium.com/shotshell/premium-slug-buckshot/vital-shok-buckshot/11-P158+4B.html

Thanks for the input Sukhoi. Pretty sure “T-shot” is in reference to Hevi’s use of tungsten for some of their shot (vs lead, steel, etc.). Though cool and logically sound given tungsten’s density, I’d say that’s definitely bordering on exotic. I also tend toward tried and true  

I like Federal’s offerings for the majority of my firearms. Following your link I found a #4 buck “Personal Defense” round. Might see if I can find that locally to give it a try. 

https://www.federalpremium.com/shotshell/premium-personal-defense/personal-defense-shotshell/11-PD156+4B.html

If things ever go from bad to worse, I still have the 00 and slugs to fall back on.  

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You can generally find the ammo you're looking for at www.ammoseek.com . I'm partial to Federal's 000 buck even though it's not Flite Control and I can generally only find 000 buck in cases on ammoseek.

And I did a net search for 'T shot' - it's .20 caliber steel shot according to what I found (not on Hevi's website). #4 buck of course is .24 caliber. No wonder they jack it up with plenty of powder charge.

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Hey RPC --

Sorry to hear you live in California.  I should know, I live here too!  While there was a work-around for buying ammo on the web and having it shipped to a cooperating FFL/Dealer, it looks like that option is now gone.  Now we need to have the correct paperwork in order to have a background check done for every ammo purchase (within state).  And, each purchase denotes caliber and type you purchase going to your current resident address.  Only saving grace at this point is there is no limit to the amount you can buy.  So now buying a thousand rounds of 9, 40, 45, 223, 12 gauge at a time only makes fiscally as it takes time to run the B/G check fro each purchase and it cost $1 per check.... unless you haven't legally (FFL) purchased a fire arm in the last 4 years (I think that's the number), then you have to pay $19 per B/G check per purchase.

Non-sense

Edited by Birdog19

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I like the Federal LE loads.  You really cant go wrong with them.  Some M4s may have issues

with the low recoil loads though (in my experience). 

I really like the LEB127LRS low recoil slugs.  Some people load the gun with buckshot and keep a few slugs on a side saddle.  YMMV.

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My personal thoughts only.  Others, including the OP may not concur.  For a HD shotgun load, Federal LE13200 (FliteControl) is as good as it gets.  Lower recoil over the higher velocity rounds.  At HD distances, you'll have a tighter pattern, i.e., more accurate shot and LESS likely to have an errant pellet fly hither and yon.  Depending on the gun, within 30 feet and even beyond, you'll likely get a one-hole hit on target.  Some will chime in that " . . . well if yer gonna have such a tight pattern you might as well shoot slugs . . . and, well, I'd rather have more of a spread in the pattern . . .blah, blah, blah".   To those I say, fine, make your own choice.  Overall, the shotgun for HD, in my view, has its own disadvantages and strengths but that's another discussion.  My defensive shotguns, home or otherwise, are loaded as noted above.

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55 minutes ago, truckcop said:

My personal thoughts only.  Others, including the OP may not concur.  For a HD shotgun load, Federal LE13200 (FliteControl) is as good as it gets.  Lower recoil over the higher velocity rounds.  At HD distances, you'll have a tighter pattern, i.e., more accurate shot and LESS likely to have an errant pellet fly hither and yon.  Depending on the gun, within 30 feet and even beyond, you'll likely get a one-hole hit on target.  Some will chime in that " . . . well if yer gonna have such a tight pattern you might as well shoot slugs . . . and, well, I'd rather have more of a spread in the pattern . . .blah, blah, blah".   To those I say, fine, make your own choice.  Overall, the shotgun for HD, in my view, has its own disadvantages and strengths but that's another discussion.  My defensive shotguns, home or otherwise, are loaded as noted above.

I agree completely federal flite control all way. All you need to do is youtube up some tests of flite control vs non flite control and you'll see there's no reason that shouldn't be your first choice.

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On 9/10/2019 at 5:25 PM, truckcop said:

My personal thoughts only.  Others, including the OP may not concur.  For a HD shotgun load, Federal LE13200 (FliteControl) is as good as it gets. 

Appreciate the input truckcop. TSLE321 00 is exactly the 00 buck I bought a case of. Couldn’t believe how tight and consistent the spread was, though some of that could be attributed to the M4 itself I guess. 

Even at reduced velocity, do you not see the LE321 as an over-penetration risk in an HD scenario?

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5 hours ago, RPC said:

 

Even at reduced velocity, do you not see the LE321 as an over-penetration risk in an HD scenario?

00 buck (.33 caliber) will shred sheetrock at close range without losing a whole lot of energy (i.e. retaining enough energy to do some serious damage to living tissue) which is why I suggested #4 buck (.24 caliber). 00 buck will still be deadly after passing through two layers of sheet rock, #4 buck not so much. You may not get the very tight and consistent pattern without the Flite Control wads, however I understood your intention was to mitigate possible downrange collateral damage and #4 buck will accomplish that for you. Those awesome Flite Control rounds (one of my faves) retain energy very well downrange which is why I keep #4 buck as an option on tap so as to mitigate possible harm to my neighbors should I have to do some varmint control outside (you know what kind of varmints I'm referring to, the dangerous ones always in season).

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On 9/12/2019 at 11:07 AM, Sukhoi_fan said:

00 buck (.33 caliber) will shred sheetrock at close range without losing a whole lot of energy (i.e. retaining enough energy to do some serious damage to living tissue) which is why I suggested #4 buck (.24 caliber). 00 buck will still be deadly after passing through two layers of sheet rock, #4 buck not so much. You may not get the very tight and consistent pattern without the Flite Control wads, however I understood your intention was to mitigate possible downrange collateral damage and #4 buck will accomplish that for you. Those awesome Flite Control rounds (one of my faves) retain energy very well downrange which is why I keep #4 buck as an option on tap so as to mitigate possible harm to my neighbors should I have to do some varmint control outside (you know what kind of varmints I'm referring to, the dangerous ones always in season).

Good stuff Sukhoi, got some of the #4 buck incoming. Looking forward to performance on the range. 

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6 hours ago, RPC said:

Good stuff Sukhoi, got some of the #4 buck incoming. Looking forward to performance on the range. 

Head to head #4 buck against the Flite Control you will be disappointed, however it's a compromise when you're concerned about who or what is immediately downrange. #4 buck is going to dissipate energy at a much shorter distance than any 00 buck. Which is why I like 000 buck for a little more range although 000 buck won't hold a pattern like Flite Control, it's still retains sufficient energy albeit it spread out. Flite Control in 00 buck is about as good as it gets for buckshot.

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