shootingsight Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) Looking to buy an M4, and it looks like there are two choices: Pistol grip or not, or collapsing stock. H2O or not, for an additional $200 So what is H2O? If I understand, Benelli used to make an NP3 coated gun, but now just uses a silver colored cerakote. So if I buy a new H2O, all I'm getting is silver paint for $200, or does the H2O package include any other benefit? Follow up - was the NP3 really a benefit, and I should look for a used gun, or was it merely marketing smoke/mirrors to try and get around 922, and I should save my money and stick with black? And what's up with brown and camo guns I see? Are those custom jobs, or discontinued? Nothing on the Benelli site. Thanks, Art Edited November 7, 2019 by shootingsight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 (edited) Just now, shootingsight said: Looking to buy an M4, and it looks like there are two choices: Pistol grip or not, or collapsing stock. H2O or not, for an additional $200 So what is H2O? If I understand, Benelli used to make an NP3 coated gun, but now just uses a silver colored cerakote. So if I buy a new H2O, all I'm getting is silver paint for $200, or does the H2O package include any other benefit? Follow up - was the NP3 really a benefit, and I should look for a used gun, or was it merely marketing smoke/mirrors to try and get around 922, and I should save my money and stick with black? And what's up with brown and camo guns I see? Are those custom jobs, or discontinued? Nothing on the Benelli site. Thanks, Art You answered one of your questions yourself. And no, it wasn't a marketing scheme. The original H2O was NP3 plated by ROBAR and was a considerable upgrade. Now, I think it is just a marketing scheme because the Cerakote is not as good as the NP3 plated guns are..NP3 has superior lubricity and it does not wear off like Cerakote does. As for the stock type, a personal preference. My gun came with the factory non-collapsing pistol grip stock and it is perfect for me in every way. I bought a field stock just to see how it was and it remains in my safe unused. I did not like the way I had to angle my wrist on it. A lot of people don't like the non collapsing PG stock because it is too long a LOP for them. Edited November 7, 2019 by Evolution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout_21 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 H2O is water ...? But like Evolution said the NP3 coating is an upgrade for both friction reduction and corrosion resistance. StrangerDanger is (or will be?) working with the coating company that ROBAR used. It's a bit complicated but ROBAR and the coating company had the same parent owner (I think) but the gun specific company closed up shop this summer. I think it was a good deal to get it all at once coated and everything...but for just cerakote it doesn't seem worth is unless you REALLY like that specific color. Stranger Danger used a really cool bronze color when he refinished his well used m4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangerDanger Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Scout and Evolution covered most of it. The only thing I'd caution is Benelli did a bit of a bait and switch with the H2O models. The original H2O was NP3 plated. The current ones are Cerakoted to look like they're NP3 plated. Cerakote does pretty good at protecting the finish, but it does not have the embedded teflon substrate that makes it function without lubrication. The Cerakote models didn't even paint the small moving parts because Cerakote isn't really good for that. It's too thick and uneven of a finish that will cause tolerance stacking issues. I just sent my first batch of parts out today to Wright Armory. They're picking up where Robar left off for getting the plating done with CTL. CTL won't deal with the little people directly. I tried to send batches of a few thousand parts in and it wasn't enough for them to bother with me. We'll see how it goes with Wright Armory. The owner has been working with me directly to get everything lined up like the chemical stripping for the aluminum parts. For fun, I sent a good portion of my Dillon 650 in with this batch to get it plated. Including the main ram, shell plates, most of the screws, primer system and so on. My 650 is pretty tricked out with aftermarket parts like a Mr. Bullet Feeder. I process a lot of pistol brass with it. So anything to help keep it running smooth and grit free is a huge benefit. If you have one, you know they're prone to rusting, so it'll be a good upgrade for it. I sent in a client's high end AR15's. A close quarters model, and a long range precision build with a Nightforce optic. Carbon fiber wrapped barrels on both. Lithium aluminum receivers and so on. I disassembled the JP Enterprises silent buffers and sent all the parts for plating. I even took the UBR stock apart and sent the steel internal parts and screws in. Another issue with the Benelli H2O's is they didn't plate as much as they should have. They left a lot of the parts unfinished which hurt its performance and resistance to corrosion. They didn't plate the ARGO system at all or the rear sight assembly. Its nice being able to send your accessories in to get everything matching too. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo45 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 On 6/6/2019 at 10:58 AM, Scout_21 said: I contacted Briley a month or so ago and they were hoping to have them in a month or so... hopefully soon I did as about 922r and was told this "Yes, All the materials used: steel, titanium, aluminum extrusions, aluminum bar stock, carbon and all machining is USA made. " They are also planning a full length carbon fiber magazine tube... not sure how I feel about that On 8/26/2019 at 6:06 PM, Milspec said: Does this negate the need for the set screws? On 11/1/2019 at 8:11 PM, StrangerDanger said: I agree. The Surefire is terrible. Care to post some photos of the RTV modification? 11 minutes ago, StrangerDanger said: Scout and Evolution covered most of it. The only thing I'd caution is Benelli did a bit of a bait and switch with the H2O models. The original H2O was NP3 plated. The current ones are Cerakoted to look like they're NP3 plated. Cerakote does pretty good at protecting the finish, but it does not have the embedded teflon substrate that makes it function without lubrication. The Cerakote models didn't even paint the small moving parts because Cerakote isn't really good for that. It's too thick and uneven of a finish that will cause tolerance stacking issues. I just sent my first batch of parts out today to Wright Armory. They're picking up where Robar left off for getting the plating done with CTL. CTL won't deal with the little people directly. I tried to send batches of a few thousand parts in and it wasn't enough for them to bother with me. We'll see how it goes with Wright Armory. The owner has been working with me directly to get everything lined up like the chemical stripping for the aluminum parts. For fun, I sent a good portion of my Dillon 650 in with this batch to get it plated. Including the main ram, shell plates, most of the screws, primer system and so on. My 650 is pretty tricked out with aftermarket parts like a Mr. Bullet Feeder. I process a lot of pistol brass with it. So anything to help keep it running smooth and grit free is a huge benefit. If you have one, you know they're prone to rusting, so it'll be a good upgrade for it. I sent in a client's high end AR15's. A close quarters model, and a long range precision build with a Nightforce optic. Carbon fiber wrapped barrels on both. Lithium aluminum receivers and so on. I disassembled the JP Enterprises silent buffers and sent all the parts for plating. I even took the UBR stock apart and sent the steel internal parts and screws in. Another issue with the Benelli H2O's is they didn't plate as much as they should have. They left a lot of the parts unfinished which hurt its performance and resistance to corrosion. They didn't plate the ARGO system at all or the rear sight assembly. Its nice being able to send your accessories in to get everything matching too. kinda off the topic but how do you like the jp silent buffers? I just got my dd isr approved and the buffer is pretty loud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangerDanger Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 The JP will solve that loud buffer for sure. Buy the model that comes disassembled and has like five different spring weights. The factory assembled ones are a real bitch to get apart. I have to roast them with a MAPP torch for like a minute to get them to break free. Having the various weights lets you dial in action which reduces perceived recoil. While obviously .223 isn't much recoil wise, it matters for follow up shots and minimizing sight disruption. I'm hoping to see some slight improvement by having it NP3+ plated. Having those teflon embedded parts meshed together is really nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 SD; were you referring to the NP3 H2O's as not plating the gas system? I ask because on my gun the gas system is plated even the pistons and retaining pins in the gas cylinders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangerDanger Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Really? The ones I saw were not. They definitely should be done. Seems there was some inconsistencies during their production with Robar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 (edited) Yeah must be, because my whole system is plated. The front sight, the rear sight and the pic rail not, but all the associared screws are. The trigger and sear are, the hammer was not. The plunger cap is and the little arm for the shell carrier is plated also the hollow hammer pin is also plated. Must have been who did what on a given day or, who knows what? Edited November 8, 2019 by Evolution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangerDanger Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 I know my shipments to them in the past would be hit and miss for mostly small parts. Like sometimes they’d refuse to plate the snap ring that holds the trigger bushing pin. Other times they’d plate even AR15 safety detents. Can’t imagine why they’d skip the hammer. It’s one of the biggest benefit parts in the whole package. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Yeah go figure. I replaced the hammer with a Geissele one anyway when I went 922R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingsight Posted November 8, 2019 Author Share Posted November 8, 2019 NP3 will not perform on the hammer. This is why I chose NiB for the 922R hammers I make. Teflon is too soft to take much direct load, and at the sear edges, the pressure is immense - right up at the yield point of the steel. So making trigger components with Nickel-teflon, they start to gum up very quickly. The teflon can't take the load, so you get nickel bearing on nickel, or Nickel on steel, depending on it both components are coated, and nickel is soft, and it is a poor bearing surface. So the nickel starts to gall and wear away and the trigger feels cruddy. NiB is low friction and very high hardness, so it is a great anti-wear coating for high load parts. NP3 will perform well in things like slides and bolt carriers, where sideways forces are incidental and can be spread over large bearing surfaces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangerDanger Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 FFT has been doing their trigger kits in NP3 for a while now. A year or two back they began to plate the disconnector and hammer to match the trigger. I’ve had a bunch of them done myself when plating some Geissele hammers. Never noticed any performance change on the trigger pull. What I did notice an improvement on is when pulling the bolt carrier to the rear. The finish smooths out the action some since the bolt carrier drags over the hammer during the action cycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangerDanger Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 To answer your other question, Benelli did some runs of dark earth in Cerakote around the same time they did the fake H2O in silver. Farther back Benelli has a tan Benelli M4 that was in tri-color. I don’t believe this was Cerakote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingsight Posted November 8, 2019 Author Share Posted November 8, 2019 Thanks for all, it sounds like I'm going the route of just getting a black gun. I've got a plan for charging handles. We'll see what else I can see that I want to play with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milspec Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 On 11/7/2019 at 8:33 PM, StrangerDanger said: Scout and Evolution covered most of it. The only thing I'd caution is Benelli did a bit of a bait and switch with the H2O models. The original H2O was NP3 plated. The current ones are Cerakoted to look like they're NP3 plated. Cerakote does pretty good at protecting the finish, but it does not have the embedded teflon substrate that makes it function without lubrication. The Cerakote models didn't even paint the small moving parts because Cerakote isn't really good for that. It's too thick and uneven of a finish that will cause tolerance stacking issues. I just sent my first batch of parts out today to Wright Armory. They're picking up where Robar left off for getting the plating done with CTL. CTL won't deal with the little people directly. I tried to send batches of a few thousand parts in and it wasn't enough for them to bother with me. We'll see how it goes with Wright Armory. The owner has been working with me directly to get everything lined up like the chemical stripping for the aluminum parts. For fun, I sent a good portion of my Dillon 650 in with this batch to get it plated. Including the main ram, shell plates, most of the screws, primer system and so on. My 650 is pretty tricked out with aftermarket parts like a Mr. Bullet Feeder. I process a lot of pistol brass with it. So anything to help keep it running smooth and grit free is a huge benefit. If you have one, you know they're prone to rusting, so it'll be a good upgrade for it. I sent in a client's high end AR15's. A close quarters model, and a long range precision build with a Nightforce optic. Carbon fiber wrapped barrels on both. Lithium aluminum receivers and so on. I disassembled the JP Enterprises silent buffers and sent all the parts for plating. I even took the UBR stock apart and sent the steel internal parts and screws in. Another issue with the Benelli H2O's is they didn't plate as much as they should have. They left a lot of the parts unfinished which hurt its performance and resistance to corrosion. They didn't plate the ARGO system at all or the rear sight assembly. Its nice being able to send your accessories in to get everything matching too. SD, does Wright Armory disassemble like Robar use to? Or does everything have to be broken down? I know you bust everything down, I’m just wondering what’s their method of operation. I know they say Ti can’t be plated but I’m wondering if they would do a mag tube and simply not warranty the finish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangerDanger Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Wright Armory seemed like they would do simple stuff and had some gunsmithing service options. I'm not sure if they'd be willing to disassemble the M4 since a few areas are a specialty area. Areas like removing the receiver extension from the receiver. I sent a bunch of titanium parts in, so hopefully they just do it like they have in the past. That's my hope is that they just don't warranty the work. I was quoted 2-5 weeks, which is significantly faster than Robar was at 12-16 weeks. We'll see if that's legit. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milspec Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Thanks SD. It seems my H2O dream is just getting too difficult to chase. I may have to go the route of Midnight or Burnt Bronze Cerakote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milspec Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Does anyone know how the CC mag tube in “muted” matches up to the NP3 finish? They say it’s pretty close but I haven’t heard from anyone who actually has seen or owns one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangerDanger Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 It's definitely not a direct match. It doesn't look bad but it is a different tone of silver than NP3 is. I'd reach out to Wright and see if they'll tear down the M4 for you. If not, I'd gladly take care of it for you now that we have a working path laid out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingsight Posted November 19, 2019 Author Share Posted November 19, 2019 I'm in! Bought my gun today. Gotta figure out how to get the stock off. Spent 5 mins and could not get the bolt apart - I got the firing pin, cam pin, and charging handle out .... now I'm gonna have to read the instructions ? Thanks for all the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangerDanger Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Congratulations! Plastic pistol grip stock? Remove the trigger pack, then unscrew the stock from the receiver. Collapsible stock? There is an installation notch that you'll have to find that is between the middle and fully extended position. As you're pressing the unlock button, the stock will rotate about 45 degrees right, then slide up and down the receiver extension. There are witness lines engraved on the receiver extension to give you a general idea of where the notches are. Once you find the installation groove, the stock will then rotate about 90 degrees left, then allow you to pull it off of the receiver extension. This will remove the sliding stock portion. To remove the pistol grip, remove your trigger pack then unscrew the pistol grip from the receiver. For your bolt carrier, there is a cam pin (part 33) that goes in the top of the bolt that retains the bolt in the bolt carrier. Once the firing pin/spring have been removed, you should be able to tip the bolt carrier upside down and get it to drop out. Then the bolt will just pull out the front. Generally you won't be removing part 43 since its pin (part 40) is staked in position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingsight Posted November 20, 2019 Author Share Posted November 20, 2019 I do not have the pistol grip stock, but it looks like the answer is to poke holes in the butt-pad to unscrew stuff. I do want to put a Tail-Hook on it, so I need a buffer tube. Got the bolt sorted. You need to take the charging handle AND the firing pin out. I tried each, but not together ? Also, I fitted the 2-stage trigger, and it worked great, so I want to get that promoted. If you are firing slugs and want accuracy, 2-stage is the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangerDanger Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 You have the stock group in 108? If so, it removes the same way as the pistol grip stock. Remove the trigger pack and unscrew it. It can be tight. You shouldn’t have to remove the buttpad. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRCOWBOY Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 On 11/7/2019 at 8:33 PM, StrangerDanger said: Scout and Evolution covered most of it. The only thing I'd caution is Benelli did a bit of a bait and switch with the H2O models. The original H2O was NP3 plated. The current ones are Cerakoted to look like they're NP3 plated. Cerakote does pretty good at protecting the finish, but it does not have the embedded teflon substrate that makes it function without lubrication. The Cerakote models didn't even paint the small moving parts because Cerakote isn't really good for that. It's too thick and uneven of a finish that will cause tolerance stacking issues. I just sent my first batch of parts out today to Wright Armory. They're picking up where Robar left off for getting the plating done with CTL. CTL won't deal with the little people directly. I tried to send batches of a few thousand parts in and it wasn't enough for them to bother with me. We'll see how it goes with Wright Armory. The owner has been working with me directly to get everything lined up like the chemical stripping for the aluminum parts. For fun, I sent a good portion of my Dillon 650 in with this batch to get it plated. Including the main ram, shell plates, most of the screws, primer system and so on. My 650 is pretty tricked out with aftermarket parts like a Mr. Bullet Feeder. I process a lot of pistol brass with it. So anything to help keep it running smooth and grit free is a huge benefit. If you have one, you know they're prone to rusting, so it'll be a good upgrade for it. I sent in a client's high end AR15's. A close quarters model, and a long range precision build with a Nightforce optic. Carbon fiber wrapped barrels on both. Lithium aluminum receivers and so on. I disassembled the JP Enterprises silent buffers and sent all the parts for plating. I even took the UBR stock apart and sent the steel internal parts and screws in. Another issue with the Benelli H2O's is they didn't plate as much as they should have. They left a lot of the parts unfinished which hurt its performance and resistance to corrosion. They didn't plate the ARGO system at all or the rear sight assembly. Its nice being able to send your accessories in to get everything matching too. I just purchased a new M4 in titanium cerakote. Can someone point me to a thread or take the time to explain which is better currently with what's avaiable in 2020 being titanium cerakote or the anodized black aluminum with phosphate barrel? Its on back order and I believe I can still modify my order. Thanks 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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