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Panzer M4 Shotgun


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1 hour ago, Sukhoi_fan said:

This thread is definitely coming across as snobbish. As the one utube reviewer kept reminding his viewers, "This shotgun IS 1/3 the cost of a Benelli M4."

The Chicoms have cloned a number of guns including the Browning ATD-22, the 1911, the Model 1897 shotgun, the 870, and the M-14 to name a handful. Rossi cloned the Winchester 62A. The Indians reverse engineered the FAL and it worked sufficiently for them. All of these were venerated, proven gun designs. Some of the Norinco made guns have the occasional part not interchangeable with the originals yet these clones are well thought of and command prices much higher than they originally sold for, surprisingly in line with the current market for the originals, sometimes higher.

All I care about is that a gun goes BOOM immediately followed by small, hot, metallic thingies being forcefully expelled from the muzzle at very high velocity, reliably. Nothing else matters. And from the posted 17+ minute video review along with his followup on compatible mods I've concluded there is NOTHING wrong with the Turknelli M4 that cannot be easily resolved, in particular that being the matter of the shell stop. As far I can tell the only operational malfunctions were a combination of needing more hotter buckshot loads to break it in and avoiding that low end cheapie Winchester ammo.

Now with that said, how many of you snobbish Benelli owners own a Mossberg POS? (Yes, Mossys are genuine POS).

I find it interesting that based on nothing presented here you've determined that there's a "Snobbish" undercurrent to many Benelli owners.

You both open and closed your contribution to this conversation with the word, please expand, because I can't be the only one who's missed it.

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6 minutes ago, Freelancer99 said:

I find it interesting that based on nothing presented here you've determined that there's a "Snobbish" undercurrent to many Benelli owners.

You both open and closed your contribution with the word, please expand, because I can't be the only one who's missed it.

there is a snobbish under tone here but only from a  handful of arrogant people, like yourself. the vast majority are very respectful and very helpful..you're not one of them

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8 hours ago, Freelancer99 said:

Let's consider creating a sub-forum for cheap POSs, we'll repost this thread and everyone who considers this as a viable alternative can continue the conversation there.

Here you referred to the Turknelli M4 as a "cheap POS" and apparently you're unable to objectively consider the Turknelli M4 as "a viable alternative" when YOU have zero personal first hand experience with it. It's reasonable to regard your response as snobbish.

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8 minutes ago, Freelancer99 said:

I find it interesting that based on nothing presented here you've determined that there's a "Snobbish" undercurrent to many Benelli owners.

Not "many" apparently just a small percentage...lol

And "based on nothing"??? Whiskey Tango Hotel?? There's no shortage between the two of you presenting an opinion on something you have ZERO personal first hand experience with.

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1 minute ago, Freelancer99 said:

You are free to quote anything I've in order to support your point.

how bout this gem from you??  snobbish or just an asshole?? either way, its all the same to me

Freelancer99

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Wow a whole lotta bitching lately.

Legitimate concerns are one thing, but once you all start whining about hurt feelings, really!?!

Why don't you guys that are unhappy call customer service and cry to them, because seriously you're not likely to find any sympathy here.

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3 minutes ago, Sukhoi_fan said:

Here you referred to the Turknelli M4 as a "cheap POS" and apparently you're unable to objectively consider the Turknelli M4 as "a viable alternative" when YOU have zero personal first hand experience with it. It's reasonable to regard your response as snobbish.

I'll agree with you and that's fair if as you say all you care about is that the gun goes BOOM, and I will also agree with you that it is a viable alternative to other things that go boom.

I appreciate your input, but I fail to so any snobbery from me or anyone in this discussion. 

I clarified my initial comment by saying that the Panzer was just a copy of an already successful product, and as someone who appreciates innovation in engineering I prefer the real deal. 

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I fail to so any snobbery from me or anyone in this discussion.

You and another forum member declared a reasonable facsimile of a Benelli M4* to be a "POS" while NEITHER of you has ANY personal first hand experience with the Turknelli M4. That's snobbery.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/snob

*Norinco (the Chinese with their rough workmanship) has made many "reasonable facsimiles" of proven, reliable guns which are also as reliable as the originals and also in strong demand in the secondary market (the Norinco clones are sought after not shunned), why can't the Turks??

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17 minutes ago, MrMilitaryPolice said:

how bout this gem from you??  snobbish or just an asshole?? either way, its all the same to me

Freelancer99

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Wow a whole lotta bitching lately.

Legitimate concerns are one thing, but once you all start whining about hurt feelings, really!?!

Why don't you guys that are unhappy call customer service and cry to them, because seriously you're not likely to find any sympathy here.

Did you realize you were so passionate about this shotgun before now?

This all started because we were discussing a shotgun.

People have different opinions, I wouldn't imagine the conversation would've gone like this if we were face to face. 

 

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1 minute ago, Freelancer99 said:

Did you realize you were so passionate about this shotgun before now?

This all started because we were discussing a shotgun.

People have different opinions, I wouldn't imagine the conversation would've gone like this if we were face to face. 

 

i guarantee you it would'nt have went like this is we were face to face. the whole thing is your wannabe superior attitude and arrogance.  i THINK it was post #14 for you and you were trying to chastise people like you're someone special.  you're not.  You come here telling other people what to do, proclaiming other brands a POS, of which you have ZERO experience. its ok to be a Benelli fan-boi..i prefer them too, but its your attitude towards others that makes you both a snob and an asshole.

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17 minutes ago, Sukhoi_fan said:

You and another forum member declared a reasonable facsimile of a Benelli M4* to be a "POS" while NEITHER of you has ANY personal first hand experience with the Turknelli M4. That's snobbery.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/snob

*Norinco (the Chinese with their rough workmanship) has made many "reasonable facsimiles" of proven, reliable guns which are also as reliable as the originals and also in strong demand in the secondary market (the Norinco clones are sought after not shunned), why can't the Turks??

Thank you, that is a good point. What I would say is that the Turks have a long history of making beautiful firearms, so they are very capable, I never implied that they can't.

Yes, Norinco has been very successful copying many other people's designs, absolutely.

I'll remind you that the whole basis for my position was that I prefer the original and not the copy.  

I'm sure that there are things in your life that you don't prefer or consider inferior, I wouldn't call you a snob for having those opinions. 

I appreciate this discussion with you and you've raised some valid points.

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There's quite a distinction between "It's a POS!" and "I prefer the original." lol

FWIW, when I call a Mossy a POS I actually own one, a Shockwave. The major problem* it used to have has been resolved. All Mossy pumps suffer the same problem as do the Rock Island pumps I have - don't drop them they are easily disabled by dropping them from a drop as little as one foot.

*Shell lifter falls out of position when dropped, therefore I regard Mossys which have not been remedied to be POS and NOT reliable for social work.

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2 minutes ago, Sukhoi_fan said:

There's quite a distinction between "It's a POS!" and "I prefer the original." lol

FWIW, when I call a Mossy a POS I actually own one, a Shockwave. The major problem* it used to have has been resolved. All Mossy pumps suffer the same problem as do the Rock Island pumps I have - don't drop them they are easily disabled by dropping them from a drop as little as one foot.

*Shell lifter falls out of position when dropped, therefore I regard Mossys which have not been remedied to be POS and NOT reliable for social work.

There you go! See how nice a civilized discussion can go, and you even refrained from calling me asshole. 

Sorry to hear about your Mossy, I hope you didn't pay for it.

You are absolutely correct, there is a difference between POS and I prefer... In hindsight I would have used the later in my original post, It would have been much more accurate. The reason I said POS, even though I had not published a full review, as some would have liked, is that it felt like a blatant money grab, Benelli does all the heavy lifting and innovation and these guys slide in and just copy it? Doesn't sit well with me, but not because I'm a snob, I just don't like it.

I now look forward to someone else doing an honest review. 

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Nothing wrong with my Mossy now...except it's still a Mossy. I have no plans to be shooting a lot of ammo through it, it's a specialty piece, don't want to wear out the POS. ALL pumps have a limited lifetime before they become loosey-goosey and stuff starts to break. Benelli seems to be the only shotgun to hold up well to thousands upon thousands of rounds. And yep, I think this includes the Turknelli M4. We'll see. That's why I would like to see as many of the Turknelli M4s out there as possible so we're able to see how well they hold up. I'm thinking the big savings on purchasing the Turknelli can go to buying ammo.

Patents expire all the time, it's called the free market.

 

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1 minute ago, Sukhoi_fan said:

Nothing wrong with my Mossy now...except it's still a Mossy. I have no plans to be shooting a lot of ammo through it, it's a specialty piece, don't want to wear out the POS. ALL pumps have a limited lifetime before they become loosey-goosey and stuff starts to break. Benelli seems to be the only shotgun to hold up well to thousands upon thousands of rounds. And yep, I think this includes the Turknelli M4. We'll see. That's why I would like to see as many of the Turknelli M4s out there so we're able to see how well they hold up. I'm thinking the big savings on purchasing the Turknelli can go to buying ammo.

Patents expire all the time, it's called the free market.

 

I suppose you're right, I mean I have 1911s that are not Colts, and ARs that are not ArmaLites, what do I care. 

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3 minutes ago, Sukhoi_fan said:

Nothing wrong with my Mossy now...except it's still a Mossy. I have no plans to be shooting a lot of ammo through it, it's a specialty piece, don't want to wear out the POS. ALL pumps have a limited lifetime before they become loosey-goosey and stuff starts to break. Benelli seems to be the only shotgun to hold up well to thousands upon thousands of rounds. And yep, I think this includes the Turknelli M4. We'll see. That's why I would like to see as many of the Turknelli M4s out there so we're able to see how well they hold up. I'm thinking the big savings on purchasing the Turknelli can go to buying ammo.

Patents expire all the time, it's called the free market.

 

i had a gen 1 590A1 and a 500A back in very early 2000s. The 590 fore-end was so loose that it caused binding on the slide bars when working the action. It had an incredible amount of 'play' in it when it was locked up. i decided i couldnt trust it and sold off both Mossbergs and havent owned another since.

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