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Caution: titanium charging handle for M4?


Lupo

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Many of you have been salivating over the titanium bolt handle for the M4 on the Brownell's website. And I don't blame you. The link is here .

 

The problem is that this handle doesn't fit the M4. I spoke with Brownell's and the manufacturer, Progressive Machine and Tool. The maker says they never represented this part as fitting anything but the M1, and the label on the plastic bag containing the part does indeed confirm this. He said that Brownell's told him they thought a handle for the M1 would fit the M4. The Brownell's technical support guy disavowed any knowledge of the M4, but conceded that they may need to modify their website. As of Friday, June 23, this hasn't happened; so I'm here to inject a note of caution.

 

Note that the picture of the handle on the Brownell's website doesn't really illustrate the handle accurately, as does that on the manufacturer's website and the picture shown below. There's a flat section that's supposed to keep the handle from rotating which is "missing" from the Brownell's photo.

 

416708.jpg

 

This picture shows the factory M4 handle next to the oversize titanium handle. First, let me say that the titanium handle is beautifully executed, and the manufacturer obviously knows how to create high-quality parts; it just doesn't fit my M4. :( The pin on this unit isn't long enough to engage the catch in the bolt assembly; as indicated in the photo, the length of the pin on the titanium unit is about 0.9 inches, whereas the pin on the factory handle inserts to about 1 inch to engage the catch inside the bolt.

 

As you can see from the picture, the flat section on the titanium handle is on one side of the pin only, rather than both. This is presumably to allow the handle to reach the back of the slot in the receiver, but the side-effect is that, when forward, the handle could rotate during handling such that it would potentially collide with the receiver while firing (assuming the pin was long enough to engage the catch in the bolt). I'm not comfortable with this at all.

 

Let's let the manufacturer and Brownell's work this confusion out. In the meantime, I suggest that you hold off on ordering this part for your M4 (as represented), since it won't fit. As for me, I'm going to turn off the flat on the lathe and make this into the first titanium handle that really does fit the M4...

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Great post Lupo,

 

Won't the difference in the tip of the Ti version affect how the pin engages the bolt, even if you lathe the flat part off?

 

My guess is the reason the tip of the OEM handle is designed the way it is...is so that it'll lock when it's "pushed & twisted" in the bolt, no?

 

I wonder if w/o that piece it'll push-in similar to the M1 (sort of a friction fit).

 

Look forward to your future report.

 

Rob

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Hey Rob, I don't own an M1 so I can't compare the lockup of the handle, but it engages the M4 catch just fine from the backside with the bolt removed:

 

416883.jpg

 

The catch is just a captive round-headed pin with a spring, held in place with a roll-pin (see left photo). The tip snaps in and holds well; the titanium seems to hold up. I would prefer the triangular groove (as in the factory handle) for resistance to rotation and probably added strength. I'll post pictures of the modified handle after surgery.

 

Aww shucks, M1014, we were just fooling around, didn't mean any harm... what kid can resist titanium? :eek:

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I've been warning you kids about trying to replace the M4 bolt handle with anything else,,but nooooo,don't listen to M1014,,,,welll thats what you get for not listening,

 

Yes Mommy...were sorry......But uh actually I found this ol Volkswagon that I was gonn'a Krylon Flat Black & see if I could bolt it in place of the factory bolt handle On ma M4 but...Mommy1014 spanks extra hard...soooo....I thinl I'll refrain.... tongue.gif :rolleyes:

Heh-heh!

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Thanks Lupo,

 

So does that mean that the handle just pushes in (The M1's work this way) or does it insert with the push and twist like the factory handle?

 

Good luck with your mod and look forward to seeing the results.

 

Rob

 

 

Originally posted by Lupo:

Hey Rob, I don't own an M1 so I can't compare the lockup of the handle, but it engages the M4 catch just fine from the backside with the bolt removed:

 

416883.jpg

 

The catch is just a captive round-headed pin with a spring, held in place with a roll-pin (see left photo). The tip snaps in and holds well; the titanium seems to hold up. I would prefer the triangular groove (as in the factory handle) for resistance to rotation and probably added strength. I'll post pictures of the modified handle after surgery.

 

Aww shucks, M1014, we were just fooling around, didn't mean any harm... what kid can resist titanium? :eek:

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Thanks Lupo,

 

So does that mean that the handle just pushes in (The M1's work this way) or does it insert with the push and twist like the factory handle?

 

Good luck with your mod and look forward to seeing the results.

 

Rob

Rob, there is no real "twist" needed to insert the M4 handle. The twisting sensation happens as a consequence of the "triangular groove" cut into the tip. Hmm, I guess a picture is needed to explain this (clickity clickity clickity... done!):

 

417074.jpg

 

At left is the tip of the factory M4 handle; at right is a version that is "cut" through the plane of the grooves. This shows how the grooves form a triangle (cut highlighted in red). With the spring-driven catch on the far right, you can see that rotating the pin will cause the "tips" of the triangle to push the catch back against the spring the most. Hence the "natural" orientation of the pin is with the catch at the center of one of the three triangular faces (the spring is most relaxed at those points).

 

If you made a similar cut through the tip of the aftermarket handle in question, the red area would be circular; this means it rotates freely with no preferential orientation. In this case the only pressure you feel when inserting/extracting is along the axis of the pin (the "friction fit" you referred to). The reason that twisting seems to help when removing the factory handle is because you are using rotation to push the catch away until the pin clears it at or near one of the triangle tips. Rotating the aftermarket handle has no effect on the catch, so "twisting" has no effect during the installation or extraction of the handle.

 

The other assertion I made, that the factory grooves are probably stronger (all else being equal) is based on the observation that the equivalent red circle is smaller in area than the triangle; the circular version has less "meat" at the thinnest section.

 

I hope everybody is paying attention, there will be a quiz at the end of this discussion... ;)

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Did you do that Recon Imaging???..If so...I wish you'd go to work for the place that sends me Sat-com Imaging that directs me to dustoffs..Especially while I'm kite'n around look'n for the A REAL place ta set a bird down in the black of nite!...Some of the stuff I get looks like a dimwit captured it witha Browny Box camera...

 

Outstanding presentation there,Wolf!!

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I have both the round and the triangle type of M1/M3 and M4 knobs. I can't feel any difference in the pressure it takes to insert or remove either one and both fit my M1014 just fine.

I have the GG&G black version of this handle and it is round and works just fine on my M1014

 

Go figure

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Originally posted by jmikesteen:

I have both the round and the triangle type of M1/M3 and M4 knobs. I can't feel any difference in the pressure it takes to insert or remove either one and both fit my M1014 just fine.

I have the GG&G black version of this handle and it is round and works just fine on my M1014

 

Go figure

Yup. The only practical difference should be that the "triangular" pin resists rotation, and the round aftermarket versions don't. My guess is that the Brownell's page will be corrected to list the present version of the titanium pin as for the M1, not the M4 (as on the packaging label). Stay tuned.
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Our apologies, folks! Long story short is that, yes, the entry on our website is incorrect. The new non-rotating charging handle in question is indeed for the M1, NOT the M4.

 

We'll be fixing the website soon. And the word from the folks at Progressive Machine is that a version of the knob for the M4 is in the works.

 

Again, apologies to anybody who has been inconvenienced by our error.

 

Best regards to all,

 

Lawrence Hansen

Brownells Catalog Dept.

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Originally posted by rjk:

Thanks for the great follow-up Lupo. Great pics and explanation.

 

Hansen: Thanks for coming to the forum to explain the situation and the heads up that an M-4 version is in the works. Welcome.

Rob, my pleasure, and I second the thanks to Brownell's for coming forward on this.

 

Hey Lynx, thanks for the compliment but I have absolutely no idea what you mean about recon imaging. I do have a background in computer graphics and image processing, but not with the military. Make sure your support guys give you the information you need to stay safe!

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Speaking of oversized charging handles: Has anybody tried the ones from Dave's Metal Works?

 

Website URL here: http://www.davesmetalworks.com/

BE AWARE: you have to have pop-ups enabled to get to the Benelli parts section

 

I am particularly interested in knowing if anyone has experience with the: oversized safety, tactical bolt handle, or the speedbar (this gives you an oversized bar to use to push in the bolt release button.

 

I would like to try the tactical bolt handle, but not even Dave can tell me the exact weight of it. I know the factory bolt handle on the M1-3 s weighs .1 oz...

which is quite a bit less than the 1 oz titanium handle that started this original thread.

 

Let me know your thoughts.

 

NoBeginner

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[/i] Hey Starlynx

 

You want an actual representaion of the LZ? Man if you get one that you can actually recognize with NVGs, I'll come out of retirement. Hehe

 

AF..I'm with ya on that!!..The first NVG Dustoff I made.....The phrase I remember as a kid told me by a wise man.."I was so scared ya couldn't drive a 10 penny nail up my *** with a Ball peen hammer!"..came ta mind....:) Ta tell ya truth..I wasn't even sure I was rotors up when I let dn on the collective...

The NV Visors & HUDS are lots better...but still..I think those guys that GPS us in leave a lot ta be desired...

 

NOBEG..The email for Daves Metal Works keeps bounce'n.....

 

[ 06-29-2006, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: StarLynx ]

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Is that speed bar replacement worth it??....I may order a couple of those Ovrsized CGs...for a M3 & M4.....Just wondered if the SB is a $125+ worth of add on..Has anybody used it here??..How much modification is it to install on either M3 & M4 11707 & H&K M3??

Thanks for any expertise on this..:)

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that g&g stuff is not that great,,that $125 speedbar broke on mine,,it just started spinning around on its base,,,the charging is way too big and it too did not fit the Benelli as well,,,now mind you I had bought these products back in 02 when they first came out,,theres a third chargin handle that is out there but don't know the name of it,,shop brownells they have some cool stuff too,,seeya ;)

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