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Collapsible Stock Mod for M1014?


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I tried, I really tried, but I can't help myself. :D

Originally posted by slu_med:

What is that some of you members don’t understand about my postings? Since some of you are having difficulty comprehending I will provide a summary for those individuals that are not the sharpest tools in the shed.

I can only assume he means me. :D

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

1. Benelli technical support stated the tube can not be removed without causing damage to the receiver.

They did not state why. I still maintain the problem is one of support of the receiver, based on what I've looked at after actually looking at my gun.

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

2. Benelli when contacted denies there is any problem with the design and refuses to remedy the situation.

There is no problem with the design. It feeds just about anything.

Originally posted by slu_med:

3. Benelli corporate refuses to respond to complaint letters.

How long have you given them to respond? Have you tried calling? Did you write or call the offices in IT?

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

4. If the buffer tube can not be removed then any damage to the buffer assembly will require receiver replacement ergo you would need to buy a new shotgun.

Hmm. IF and I mean IF you're correct, Benelli comes with a warranty does it not? Then they would have to replace the receiver and the tube for you if something was wrong.

 

I got an idea. Take a hammer to the recoil tube, since it has no resale value anyway, and then send it to Benelli to fix/replace. Report back.

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

What is that some of you members don’t understand when I say it was marketed as a collectable military version? Yes the buffer did not have the usual notches to comply with the AWB and there is an American flag engraved on the receiver but other than those two cosmetic differences the receiver should have been mil spec and the buffer tube should be removable. Just as many AR-15 manufacturers had fixed telescoping stocks and false flash hiders there rifles were still military spec. when it came to all the other components.

Like Bushmaster? Sorry pal, not many civilian AR's are mil-spec. Like I said before, Benelli couldn't import the same gun as they provide to the military at the time. If you couldn't figure that one out then you're the one with issues.

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

Others can disagree with it being marketed as a military version with minor cosmetic differences but obviously they have not thoroughly read the Benelli marketing material, technical data and owners manual which portrays the shotgun as being a military version except for the cosmetic differences.

I did indeed read the material. What have gunowners argued about the AWB from the beginning? That it only outlawed cosmetic differences. A collapsable stock is a cosmetic difference because it does not change the function of the firearm in question.

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

I am not going to further argue how it was marketed as obviously a bate and switch took place.

It's "bait and switch" and in order to show that you would have to prove Benelli marketed the gun as being convertable to a collapsable stock. I challenge you to show me such an ad from Benelli and post it here. All you need is a scanner. I'm sure St. Louis University Medical School has them around somewhere. If you can show me a Benelli add, not some article in some gun rag (I'll be that's where you got your information from some "know it all" gun writer.) I'll join your class action suit. ****, I might even buy your gun, so you can get a LE version.

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

But let us table the issue of the M1014 being misrepresented as a military version for a moment and address the issue of the non-removable buffer tube assembly. No shotgun or rifle that requires a recoil buffer tube assembly should be designed in such a way that would require you to replace the receiver instead of the buffer tube assembly if wear or damage would cause the buffer tube assembly to fail. If the shotgun was design where the buffer tube could not be replaced then this fact should have been clearly noted in the documentation accompanying the shotgun and all marketing literature.

I actually agree with you there, but I don't think that is the case. You know we were never told when Benelli was asked about the recoil tube on the M1014. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts it was before the AWB expired and the guy was covering his *** for two reasons. One, he would have been aiding illegal activity. Two, what if the person does not support the receiver and screws it up?

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

Benelli is negligent for selling a product in which they knew shotgun replacement and not repair was the only option for a failure of a major operating component of the weapon. If Benelli has made a mistake in the design of this shotgun then they should replace the receiver and buffer tube assembly under warranty.

Again, IF and I do mean IF that is the case I will be pissed too, but I don't think you have a snowball's chance in **** of making the marketing thing stick. Simply because there is no way Benelli would market a gun as being easily converted to a, then, illegal configuration.
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First the assault weapons ban made no mention that the methods used to prevent collapsing of the stock required the recoil tube to be made permanent. I have converted a half dozen AR type rifles from different manufactures without incident. Threaded barrels were prohibited and the muzzled break must have a blind pin and be soldiered in place. It was simply a matter of buying a new buffer tube, stock and barrel if you wanted to break the law. Again there was no reason to make a critical operating component such as the buffer tube permanent to comply with the law.

 

As far as the warranty I don’t think 5 years is going to cover the useful life of the shotgun. Many people have weapons that are easily 20 or more years old and are fired regularly and are kept going by replacement parts. Also the warranty will not cover normal wear and tear or accidental damage.

 

 

1) I contacted Benelli after the AWB ended and I was first told they would not provide the parts.

 

2) The second time I contacted Benelli after the expiration of the AWB I was told that the buffer tube could not be removed without causing damage to the receiver. I made it very clear that I would not perform the procedure myself but have a well trained gunsmith do the work. It was stated that it was not a skill/knowledge issue but it simply couldn’t be done.

 

3) The third phone call was to question the design of a weapon that would prevent the removal and replacement of a critical operating component such as the buffer tube assembly. I was told there were no mistakes made in the design of the shotgun and the buffer tube can not be removed.

 

4) No response from Italy as of yet. In fact no response to my complaints sent via email and regular mail to Benelli USA. It appears that Benelli doesn’t want to put anything in writing which can be used against them.

 

 

Benelli should be willing to release a public statement regarding this issue and make it absolutely clear that it is not possible to remove the buffer tube and the shotgun was intentionally designed that way. Further they should provided technical drawings to the public showing the design differences so perhaps some third party could develop a safe method for removing the tube. It is very suspicious that the owner’s manual included with the M1014 was for the M4 Super 90 and no mention of the M1014 is made. I am sure if the correct manual and diagrams were furnished with the shotgun there would have been no takers for the M1014 Limited Edition.

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Originally posted by slu_med:

It was simply a matter of buying a new buffer tube, stock and barrel if you wanted to break the law. Again there was no reason to make a critical operating component such as the buffer tube permanent to comply with the law.

Correct, but the companies did not sell the guns advertising they were easily converted to an illegal config. Also if you bought a fake tele-stock for an AR, it came with a tube that would not allow the stock to collapse. Sound familiar?

 

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

1) I contacted Benelli after the AWB ended and I was first told they would not provide the parts.

Try getting spare parts from Ruger. Same deal. They will only provide parts if the gun is sent in.

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

2) The second time I contacted Benelli after the expiration of the AWB I was told that the buffer tube could not be removed without causing damage to the receiver. I made it very clear that I would not perform the procedure myself but have a well trained gunsmith do the work. It was stated that it was not a skill/knowledge issue but it simply couldn’t be done.

I'm still not convinced. There are many companies that will say not to do repair/work on their equipment because of the risk of damage to the equipment. How many places require an authorized agent/repairman? Many because Joe Toolshed will screw something up. Unfortunately, skilled and properly equipt gunsmiths are few and far between.

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

4) No response from Italy as of yet. In fact no response to my complaints sent via email and regular mail to Benelli USA. It appears that Benelli doesn’t want to put anything in writing which can be used against them.

Pure supposition on your part.

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

It is very suspicious that the owner’s manual included with the M1014 was for the M4 Super 90 and no mention of the M1014 is made. I am sure if the correct manual and diagrams were furnished with the shotgun there would have been no takers for the M1014 Limited Edition.

I'm willing to bet there is no difference; thus, no need for seperate manuals.

 

Still waiting for WIN to come back with the details regarding his friend the gunsmith. Would like to know the following:

1. Was it an M1014

2. What was involved. Was it just the matter of a retaining nut and then screwing out the the recoil spring tube?

 

 

Just some rambling thoughts. I've gotten as far as trying to remove the retaining nut. I noticed no visible welds on the nut. So if the recoil spring tube was permanately attached was the nut affixed with some sort of apoxy? Or was the tube itself welded or apoxied to the receiver? I kind of doubt there was weld due to the fit of the retaining nut. If I had a full length vise, I'd probably attempt it myself. But what is the point if the part isn't going to be made available?

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Nowhere in the marketing literature does it state the M1014 is not a M4 and the M1014 is on the same page with all the US Marine service shotgun hype.

 

The M1014 in the picture is shown with a notch and a groove in the buffer tube so the M1014 must be a M4 because only the M4 can have a buffer tube that supports a collapsible stock.

 

The owner’s manual supplied with the M1014 is the M4 super 90 with no mention of the M1014. Even if one does not agree that the marketing literature is deceiving the M4 owner’s manual is an obvious misrepresentation.

 

No where in the marketing literature or the owner’s manual does it state the buffer tube can not be replaced. Also in the marketing literature it refers to the stock as a civilian version but not the shotgun as a whole being a civilian version.

 

The M4 is stated to have a non-collapsible stock in the marketing literature so does that mean the M4 as a whole is a civilian version.

 

Red circles in the close up of the M1014 picture taken from the marketing literature show a groove and notch on the buffer tube. But according to Benelli the M1014 was never designed to have a collapsible stock. Are we starting to feel defrauded yet? I know my M1014 buffer tube does not have this circular groove and notch.

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:rolleyes:

 

Really compelling.

 

Every advertisement CLEARLY says the Civilian Version's stock will NOT collapse.

 

It also says it will accept three stocks, which is true: a standard shotgun stock, a pistol grip stock, and the "skeletonized" stock.

 

No where do they say "own the same shotgun as the US Marines." They only advertise that it uses the same operating system.

 

If the picture of a "Marine" with a collapsed stock misled you then you have serious issues. I'd read the literature where it says the civilian version will not collapse.

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Quotes from the ads you posted:

"Collapsible stock available for law enforcement only."

"Note:Civilian metal stocks are not collapsible.'

 

There you are, plain as day. For the M1014 the angle was there will only be 2500 with the flag on the receiver, not that it can be converted to a collapsible stock.

 

Go ahead and consult an attorney, I'm sure you'll get an ambulance chaser to take your case. It'll get thrown out of court, but you'll probably get an attorney.

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The bottom line is that I want a collapsible stock for my M1014. To date I have not seen any evidence that it is not physically possible.

 

I can not think of any reason that Benelli should not accomodate our requests.

 

At this point I would think that Benelli would be worried about people getting hurt from modifications made to the recoil tube that the M1014 came with. I can not believe that Benelli tooled up something for only a 2,500 production run which would prevent the exchange of the recoil tube. (I understand that they are stating other wise.)

 

I can see that the Limted Edition that I was positive of it not losing its value IS!

 

I hope that the 2,499 of us can persuade Benelli to do the right thing. Dport after reading all that you have written are you against the rest of us getting a collapsible stock?

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Rescue,

Nothing can be further than the truth. I just think a lawsuit is a premature at this point. Lawsuits should be a last resort. We are NO WHERE NEAR THERE YET.

 

Not to mention the argument that Benelli marketed it as being easily converted is, well, stupid. They did no such thing.

 

We stand a better shot if we call/write Benelli corporate in IT than if we threaten them with lawsuits.

 

BTW, Here's my M1014. :cool: pic.php?u=1342swTh7&i=8030

 

ETA: No I did not modify the buffer tube.

 

And Rescue, where did you buy yours? I overpaid at Superior Pawn Shop on Va Bch Blvd. ;)

 

[ 10-04-2004, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: dport ]

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Originally posted by ORACLEwgn:

Looks as though that link posed above, they also sell the stock itself. Buy em up...

 

http://www.impactguns.com/store/70085.html

Don't buy that yet!

 

Just because you have a collapsible compatible stock does not mean your gun will have a collapsible stock if you put it on!

 

You have to have the correct buffer tube in order for it to work.

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Originally posted by Rescue14:

Yes at Superior.

 

How did you get the stock collapsed?

 

I was thinking about driving out the pins and seeing if I could get them back in in the collapsed postion.

 

Please explain.

Your on the same track as I was. I took out the pin on the left hand side by the "take down button." (If you remove the comb, you'll see there are three indentations that keep the pin in. You'll need to grind these out. It took me about five minutes with Mr. Dremel.)

 

It will get the two positions, fully collapsed and fully extended. Granted it will NOT lock in the fully collapsed position. The pistol grip actually holds it in place, but it WILL rotate to the right. It will come off if you rotate it to the right and pull it off. All you have is the friction of the take down button keeping it in place.

 

I did not reinstall the pin. I think if you took a file or a dremel to the top of the tube where the take down button rubs it would lock in better, not perfect, but better.

 

I just played with it some more. If you're right handed what I did probably won't work for you because it will twist to the right with an aggressive cheek weld.

 

I would MUCH prefer a proper recoil tube, but until then this works for me.

 

I still wonder what Kurt at KKF could do. And there are several small machinists on AR15.com that make stock adaptors for the 870, I'd bet they could machine a proper tube.

 

And I'd still like to know, from Benelli, just how this tube is supposedly permanately fixed to the receiver.

 

We aren't even a month past the AWB sunset. The fact that Benelli is selling the LE versions and the collapsible stock to the public gives me reason to believe Benelli will do the right thing if gentle pressure is relentlessly applied on this subject.

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In the M1014 picture taken from the marketing literature there is a groove and notch on the buffer tube of the M1014 which would allow for a collapsible stock. Refer to the picture in the previous post with red circle highlights. But according to Benelli the M1014 was never designed to have a collapsible stock.

 

Can anyone prove the M1014 is not the M4 given a different name/number to differentiate it as a limited edition?

 

Why is Benelli refusing to provide technical drawings that will show how the design of the M1014 receiver and buffer tube assembly is different from the M4? I can’t even get Benelli USA technical support to tell me the differences.

 

I have tried every diplomatic way to get Benelli to address this issue and provide the information I have requested and they refuse to comply. There is no doubt that if the buffer tube is permanently attached then all of us will take a major loss on this shotgun. The whole idea of this shotgun was to be a collectible that could appreciate in value some day. I am sure most of us are less worried about the collapsible stock now and more concerned with having to replace the receiver if and when the buffer assembly fails.

 

I suggested a class action lawsuit as a remedy because obviously Benelli is not going to address this issue voluntarily. My attorney has always said to negotiate first and litigate as a last resort. I am at a complete standstill with Benelli and no one else has mentioned having any better luck.

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LMAO ...

 

ok guys ... just a few questions here regarding this law suit stuff .. :rolleyes:

 

I haven't read every post because 5 pages of banter is too much for me ..

 

Has anyone read any of the legal disclaimers that are present on the literature/website stating :

 

"Data subject to modification without prior notice."

 

-and-

 

"Specifications subject to change without notice."

 

???? ---one or both are present in/on all materials including the manuals in regards to the Beretta Group..... they own Stoeger Publishing for pitty sake.

 

The M1014 that was/is offered to John-Q-Public (civilian folk) is a modified version of the service weapon... As stated.

 

.... as far as collectability goes ... 2500 units per year is "Limited Edition" for roughly 80% of the firearms manufacturers in this catagory.

 

Just a few observations .....

 

[ 10-05-2004, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: birddog ]

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Where there is a will (and enough money), there is a way. I have got to think a really good machinist could duplicate the collapsable can.

 

I guess I will see how good of a machinist my smith is. He has all the lathes, milling machines and other goodies needed. I am sure he will tell me if he can't take off the recoil can. Even if he can't me might be able to modify it with it on.

 

Too bad we can't get a CAD drawing of the real can. I am sure that there is a machine shop out there somewhere that would be willing to make them by the dozens. Heck, I used to know people in the areospace industry that would make things off the clock for themselves on the fancy robotic machine tools. Of course the old one would have to be removable. Even if it could not be removed, a really good machinist could cut off the stock one and weld or mechanically attach a new one.

 

All it takes is $$$$$$ and finding a talented machinist that is willing to do it.

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Originally posted by slu_med:

In the M1014 picture taken from the marketing literature there is a groove and notch on the buffer tube of the M1014 which would allow for a collapsible stock. Refer to the picture in the previous post with red circle highlights. But according to Benelli the M1014 was never designed to have a collapsible stock.

Oh dear lord. The M1014 is a CIVILIAN version of a MILITARY shotgun. The CIVILIAN version wasn't allowed to be imported with the MILITARY features at the time of manufacture. So they had to manufacture the gun to meet OUR laws. Don't blame Benelli because OUR ELECTED representatives wouldn't allow them to build and import a gun EXACTLY like the military version. I recommend you learn the difference between design and manufactured. The gun WAS designed to have a collapsible stock, but, due to OUR LAWS, it was manufactured not to have it.

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

Can anyone prove the M1014 is not the M4 given a different name/number to differentiate it as a limited edition?

The burden of proof is on you, pal, not me. I maintain they are the same. You're the one saying they are different.

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

Why is Benelli refusing to provide technical drawings that will show how the design of the M1014 receiver and buffer tube assembly is different from the M4? I can’t even get Benelli USA technical support to tell me the differences.

Again you are assuming they are different.

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

I have tried every diplomatic way to get Benelli to address this issue and provide the information I have requested and they refuse to comply. There is no doubt that if the buffer tube is permanently attached then all of us will take a major loss on this shotgun.

"If" is the operable word there.

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

The whole idea of this shotgun was to be a collectible that could appreciate in value some day. I am sure most of us are less worried about the collapsible stock now and more concerned with having to replace the receiver if and when the buffer assembly fails.

Again, I agree with your concern over THIS matter, and THIS matter only.

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

I suggested a class action lawsuit as a remedy because obviously Benelli is not going to address this issue voluntarily. My attorney has always said to negotiate first and litigate as a last resort. I am at a complete standstill with Benelli and no one else has mentioned having any better luck.

There you go again. The AWB hasn't even been dead for a MONTH yet, and already you are suggesting a law suit. GET A GRIP ON REALITY.
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