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shotgun rounds for home defence


waffenmacht

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A 9mm +P or +P+ is more than adequate, shot placement trumps all.

 

Just use the 9mm and train alot, BTW you will be able to train a **** of alot more with 9mm.

 

Also, Get a damned dog, or two.

 

An advanced warning, slowing a perp down, or stopping an intrusion dead in it's tracks is priceless.

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shot placement trumps all.

 

QUOTE]

 

hmmmm sounds right to me.

 

 

I agree on that one! However, even with good shot placement, things can and do go wrong. Take the death of Officer Coates. That is a perfect example of when an officer does everything right and it all goes wrong.

 

I am not going to waste time telling the story, but here is a link. It would be wise to use his death as a lesson on underpenetration.

 

http://www.odmp.org/officer/420-trooper-mark-hunter-coates

 

Not listed in the article is the fact that none of the rounds penetrated deep enough to disable major structures within the body. He was using 145gr JHP's (Winchester SIlvertips, a round famous for underpenetration, oddly enough the same round that failed in the Miami shootout, albeit in 9mm). and all of them expanded/fragmented prematurely. Hence again why I am a fan of heavy/slow over fast/light.

 

Here is an article to read about WHY officer Coates rounds were ineffective, and further dispelling all this "energy dump" BS.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm

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A 9mm +P or +P+ is more than adequate, shot placement trumps all.

 

Just use the 9mm and train alot, BTW you will be able to train a **** of alot more with 9mm.

 

Also, Get a damned dog, or two.

 

An advanced warning, slowing a perp down, or stopping an intrusion dead in it's tracks is priceless.

 

 

+1

 

When I had my P226 Elite I would POUR ammo through the thing. When I got a Les Baer TRS in .45acp, ammo was more costly.

 

I never felt under-gunned with 124gr +P Gold Dots.

 

Now I just keep my M4 by the bed, and it doesn't matter what OO it is loaded with, any load within my appartment will pattern well enough.

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Okay, maybe a small lesson in terminal ballistics is in order. I will include pictures, because frankly, they are pretty and I like them.

 

bird_8_heavy_dove_a.jpg

 

^That is your #8 heavy dove bird-shot. We are not even considering that the man might have on a leather or other thick jacket, and most certainly won't be naked, like this block of gelatin is. We can only guess at how much less it would penetrate going through a leather or heavy coat (which, if I were breaking into a house, I would wear to obscure my build).

 

Here is some OO buckshot. Now remember, the skin on the back is = to about 4" of gelatin, and clothing worn also impairs penetration, so that "18" or whatever that OO penetrates in gel, could realistically be as little as 10-12" on a heavily clad person with some muscle-mass and a sternum.

 

[

buck_00_d.jpg

 

Now here is a GREAT! Link for you to look at before you begin to feel like 3-4" penetration on a naked block of gello is "good enough".

 

http://www.brassfetcher.com/OJ%20gunshot%20thread.pdf

 

Check it out. There are ribs, a sternum, and sometimes brachial and radial bones, as well as considerable muscle, in the way.

 

Here is another post for you to read. It depicts in one post how an officer lost his life due to birdshot being in his shotgun (read the post for an explanation).

http://www.theboxotruth.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=594

^That poster hosts "Box 'O Truth" and was LE for quite some time. He has seen what different things will do to the human body.

 

As for Clint Smith "recommending birdshot". Please, do not say things like that about Clint. Here is what someone who attended one of his classes heard him to say about it. When did you last speak with him?

 

"Clint doesn't recommend birdshot for defense, but it is a good and cheap load for practice." - http://theboxotruth.com/docs/edu61.htm (11th block of text on page one of this link).

 

NOW. If you still insist on using a load that has been proven time and time again to be inferior to other offerings, then I guess there is nothing I or anyone else can tell you to change your mind. I simply hope that you live out your days peacefully and never find out whether or not you are one of the lucky ones, or unlucky ones, when it comes to the birdshot working. Me? I will pick a round that is going to put them DOWN. I recommend you re-think your strategy and do the same.

 

Well said. I think that SHOULD about wrap it up.

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the ballistics data is very informative to say the least. but what you look at more than velocity is energy.note that the energy of the sig is 389ftlbs @ 50yds, while the 357 magnum is 441ftlbs @ 50yds. the 44 mag w/240gr is 837ftlbs@ 50yds. i also noticed on that very site that personal protection rounds seem to have far less velocity, and energy than that of hunting ammo.why do you suppose that is? less penatration maybe? i have looked all over the net for any actual ballistics test data on extreme shock rounds and cant find any.like i said i have my 44 by the bed, if that many people say its junk , i wont use it unless i can find ballistics that prove other wise.

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the ballistics data is very informative to say the least. but what you look at more than velocity is energy.note that the energy of the sig is 389ftlbs @ 50yds, while the 357 magnum is 441ftlbs @ 50yds. the 44 mag w/240gr is 837ftlbs@ 50yds. i also noticed on that very site that personal protection rounds seem to have far less velocity, and energy than that of hunting ammo.why do you suppose that is? less penatration maybe? i have looked all over the net for any actual ballistics test data on extreme shock rounds and cant find any.like i said i have my 44 by the bed, if that many people say its junk , i wont use it unless i can find ballistics that prove other wise.

 

 

It is for less recoil so you can get a faster follow-up. Energy is a false god. YOu are really looking for largest wound-channel that reaches 12" of depth. THAT is the holy grail.

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the ballistics data is very informative to say the least. but what you look at more than velocity is energy.note that the energy of the sig is 389ftlbs @ 50yds, while the 357 magnum is 441ftlbs @ 50yds. the 44 mag w/240gr is 837ftlbs@ 50yds. i also noticed on that very site that personal protection rounds seem to have far less velocity, and energy than that of hunting ammo.why do you suppose that is? less penatration maybe? i have looked all over the net for any actual ballistics test data on extreme shock rounds and cant find any.like i said i have my 44 by the bed, if that many people say its junk , i wont use it unless i can find ballistics that prove other wise.

 

Evan Marshall tested it. His finding was that it underpenetrated greatly and does not recommend it.

 

www.stoppingpower.net

 

DO a search for it here.

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I agree on that one! However, even with good shot placement, things can and do go wrong. Take the death of Officer Coates. That is a perfect example of when an officer does everything right and it all goes wrong.

 

I am not going to waste time telling the story, but here is a link. It would be wise to use his death as a lesson on underpenetration.

 

http://www.odmp.org/officer/420-trooper-mark-hunter-coates

 

Not listed in the article is the fact that none of the rounds penetrated deep enough to disable major structures within the body. He was using 145gr JHP's (Winchester SIlvertips, a round famous for underpenetration, oddly enough the same round that failed in the Miami shootout, albeit in 9mm). and all of them expanded/fragmented prematurely. Hence again why I am a fan of heavy/slow over fast/light.

 

Here is an article to read about WHY officer Coates rounds were ineffective, and further dispelling all this "energy dump" BS.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm

 

I agree on heavier bullets. I have a 9mm. Its what I have. I would like a .45 but I have kids to pay for. I think what I and others are trying to say is you have to work with what I have. I can't buy an m4 right now and I can't choot 100's of rounds trying to figure out what to shoot. Some people have a single shot break open 20 gauge. That is all they have. Will it work. Yes. ITS BETTER THAN NOTHING. I beleve you know more about this than me but I think its a little much. I beleve HD is keeping yourself and your family away from danger as long as possible and most of all don't pull the trigger if you don't have to.

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I agree on heavier bullets. I have a 9mm. Its what I have. I would like a .45 but I have kids to pay for. I think what I and others are trying to say is you have to work with what I have. I can't buy an m4 right now and I can't choot 100's of rounds trying to figure out what to shoot. Some people have a single shot break open 20 gauge. That is all they have. Will it work. Yes. ITS BETTER THAN NOTHING. I beleve you know more about this than me but I think its a little much. I beleve HD is keeping yourself and your family away from danger as long as possible and most of all don't pull the trigger if you don't have to.

 

 

+1 on your thoughts. Pulling the trigger is A LAST RESORT! That is why I am so dead-set on making sure that when (hopefully never) I pull that trigger, the effect is as predictable and as devestating as possible.

 

For a 9mm, I would look into some Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, or Ranger T +P+ 127gr. There are LOTS of good choices. This is not the 80's anymore and the 9mm is a very viable round. NYPD has had VERY good results using 124gr +P Speer Gold Dots. Usually they get an entrance and an exit and the bullet is found expanded and trapped in the perp's clothing when they undress the body at the morgue.

 

Personally, I prefer the 124gr +P Speer GD in 9mm. IT is a VERY reliable expander, penetrates well, and is a bonded bullet, meaning there is no way you will get a jacket/core separation. That is not to say that there are not other great rounds out there, it's just the one I prefer. I would caution against Hornady XTP though, they are more designed for penetration than expansion. They work well, but imho the bullet is out-dated when compared to the newer HST (Which actually came out in 01 or 02, but sucked until about 06 when it was re-tweaked effectively by Federal.)

 

If you just HAVE to have an "exotic" round, check out Corbon DPX. It is kindof a new kid on the block, but the results are very promising. NOt much real-world data yet though.

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energy is the measure if impact that the bullet delivers.its kind of like sitting in the middle of the road in your pick up truck and getting t-boned by a motorcycle @ 90mph[light bullet], or a tractor trailer @ 60mph [heavy bullet]. what do you think is going to do the most damage? i know that a corny analigy, but the physics are basicly the same. i have seen a friend of mine heart shoot a deer with a 50gr jhp 22-250 [4000fps,1603ftlbs of energy]and the deer ran for nearly a 1/4 mile. i had heard of this but never seen it. my brother in law shot a deer with a 30-30 150gr sp [2390fps, 1900ftlbs of energy]and the deer just feel over. i hunt with a 7mm mag 154gr jhp [3000 fps, 3150ftlbs of energy. ive never had to track a deer. Novaking, try winchester 147gr jhp personal protection rounds in your 9mm. they do almost as much damage as my 357 with 180gr xtp,s. i test them on a stack of 2x6s, and they are wicked.

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I consider a good shot on a deer when it runs. A heart/lung shot does not kill instantly. A spine, neck, head shot drops a deer. When I hit a intrude I want to drop him. He can kill me if he lives for 2 seconds. That is why I will use shotgun for defense. I wants more buckshot than 00 has and personally will use smaller buckshot. As a side note I have killed two 800 lb+ moose(dropped on the spot) with a 140 grain/ 7MM bullet.

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energy is the measure if impact that the bullet delivers.its kind of like sitting in the middle of the road in your pick up truck and getting t-boned by a motorcycle @ 90mph[light bullet], or a tractor trailer @ 60mph [heavy bullet]. what do you think is going to do the most damage? i know that a corny analigy, but the physics are basicly the same. i have seen a friend of mine heart shoot a deer with a 50gr jhp 22-250 [4000fps,1603ftlbs of energy]and the deer ran for nearly a 1/4 mile. i had heard of this but never seen it. my brother in law shot a deer with a 30-30 150gr sp [2390fps, 1900ftlbs of energy]and the deer just feel over. i hunt with a 7mm mag 154gr jhp [3000 fps, 3150ftlbs of energy. ive never had to track a deer. Novaking, try winchester 147gr jhp personal protection rounds in your 9mm. they do almost as much damage as my 357 with 180gr xtp,s. i test them on a stack of 2x6s, and they are wicked.

 

Ahhh...NOW you are starting to see what I am talking about. The reason your friend's deer ran that far I am betting is because he used a varmint round that did not achieve deep enough penetration. It blew up in the first shoulder/lung. Your brother's deer got punched through and through and many vital structures were severely compromised.

 

This is a perfect example of why Extreme Shock is not good stuff. It will not penetrate deep enough to cause catastrophic failure of deeper organs.

 

 

Also, 2x6's are not a good measure really of bullet destruction. I would recommend that if you (and you seem to be) are the type of person who HAS TO SEE IT FIRST HAND, that you get some newspaper and soak it for 24 hours in a large bundle (say 10-15" thick, yes it will be heavy, do it in a plastic tub from wal-mart, $4). THen let the water drain off. THis will give you a good idea of bullet expansion and penetration relative to another bullet. You want to get more realistic? Drape an old jacket/some jeans/whatever over the front of the paper before you shoot it to simulate clothing and how the HP will plug/or not plug.

 

The WWB Personal Protection 147gr JHP's are just a re-packaged Silver Tip. It isn't BAD ammo, but it is bottom of the chain. Good for practice, but I would go wiht something better for when the SHTF.

 

THe 180gr XTP in .357 is a great round for hunting and whatnot, but it is not a huge expander (1.5x caliber usually) and is more designed to penetrate than something like a Gold Dot or HST. Since over penetration is a concern for you, I would test an XTP and then test a Gold Dot in the news-paper media I described to you, then pick the one you like best.

 

Try your extreme shock, post some pictures, I want to see what it does to news-paper media, it wil lbe informative for all of us. (I predict a large, shallow cavity).

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I consider a good shot on a deer when it runs. A heart/lung shot does not kill instantly. A spine, neck, head shot drops a deer. When I hit a intrude I want to drop him. He can kill me if he lives for 2 seconds. That is why I will use shotgun for defense. I wants more buckshot than 00 has and personally will use smaller buckshot. As a side note I have killed two 800 lb+ moose(dropped on the spot) with a 140 grain/ 7MM bullet.

 

Try #1 buck in a 3" shell (patterning doesn't matter across a room imho).

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i guess you didnt see the "50gr JHP". the bullet went clean throught the deer. so did the 30-30. ive only heart shot one deer, i didnt care for raking out chunks of heart and lungs. i never heart shoot a deer anymore. i shoot for the middle of the neck. 2x6s may not simulate a human body, but i like seeing what different ammo does as far as damage & penatration. and the 9mm 147gr jhp, do almost as much damage as the 180gr 357.

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i guess you didnt see the "50gr JHP". the bullet went clean throught the deer. so did the 30-30. ive only heart shot one deer, i didnt care for raking out chunks of heart and lungs. i never heart shoot a deer anymore. i shoot for the middle of the neck. 2x6s may not simulate a human body, but i like seeing what different ammo does as far as damage & penatration. and the 9mm 147gr jhp, do almost as much damage as the 180gr 357.

 

Thats what I use now. 147 grain.

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to answer the original question.... get you a 10ga Greener double barrel coach gun. load it with Remington Express nitro magnum 3 1/2" 000 buck shot, file the trigger seer on the second barrel so that when you pull the trigger it fires both barrels. cause you never know when the thug that cant get $50.00 for some dope might be wearing Dragon Skin.[$5500.00-$7000.00]

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to answer the original question.... get you a 10ga Greener double barrel coach gun. load it with Remington Express nitro magnum 3 1/2" 000 buck shot, file the trigger seer on the second barrel so that when you pull the trigger it fires both barrels. cause you never know when the thug that cant get $50.00 for some dope might be wearing Dragon Skin.[$5500.00-$7000.00]

 

Your price is inaccurate. It will cost you up to 100K and or 20 years in a federal prison as well IIRC (not sure on the 100K, sure on the 20).

 

NO, I did not see where it was in-out on the deer with the 22-250. Did it fail to expand or something? That is pretty special. If it did expand, well, stanger things have happened, isolated case study.

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Years ago when most all officers carried .38 specials, one of my more sad jobs was to kill dear that had been struck by cars and were still alive but mangled severely. I used full metal jacket .38 ammunition at point blank range through the heart. The rounds always passed complelely through the animal into the dirt. And before anybody asks, this was done after the drivers and families involved had long left. For home defense I use a .45 automatic with FMJ ammunition. Yes, I have interviewed people that were shot with a 9mm and have yet to see a dead person from a 9mm. I have only interviewed one person shot with a .45. He was a soilder caught stealing a jeep and the round passed through a thin steel plate, two canvas seats, then completlely through his chest (hit soft tissue only), through a windshield and lodged in a headstone at a nearby cemetery.

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Your experiences and those of veterans of many combat situations differ.

 

9mm has killed tens if not hundreds of thousands, in combat.

 

Explain why the STEN, LUGER, MP5, and many other weapons have been so successful.

 

Shot placement trumps all.

 

You can shoot a deer at PBR, with a rifle, right through the heart, and still have it run away.

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