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shotgun rounds for home defence


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whats really funny, is how a lot of people insist on 0,00,000, buckshot and slugs .if they ever HAVE to shot someone with it , they will spew thier toe nails up when they see the results. and likely end up having to move away from thier home to escape from the memory. take my word for it, its not like they depict it in the movies.not even close.

 

I would rather see the mangled body of an invader than one of a family member. I will gladly use 00 as a Home Defense load.

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They might not stop with a slug in the wrong place ether. I think the point people are missing is shot placement. Thats the most important thing. IF the shot is is the right place, a well placed shot will slow them down to think about what your going to do next. Shoot again maybe backup and lock yourself in a room with your family and what for the police.

 

I don't know. I"ve never shot anyone. Don't want to. If that time comes I will do what it takes to protect my family.

 

Novaking

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i have, and take my word for it, its a reflex action. you can think about all the time. what you would do if a threat occurs. but when it happens, you just react to it without thought. dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with planning. but no amount of planning will prepare you to take another human beings life.its something you will lie in bed and think about for awhile.

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I posted earlier about Federal Home Defense loads I had purchased several years ago for my home shotgun. I was at work at the time and quoting from memory. I just looked at them and here's the actual scoop.

 

They are Federal Premium Personal Defense Low Recoil loads. 1-1/4 oz of #2 shot. They come in boxes of 10 and the part number is PD12-2. "FEDERAL Premium PERSONAL DEFENSE" is printed on each shell.

 

For me, I feel better using ammo that was marketed expressly for personal defense should I ever have to use it. One less thing for a crazy criminal defense lawyer to try to pin on me, using inappropriate ammunition.

 

Here's some info I found on the web:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs13.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pagea14.htm

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you can shoot anybody with a skeet load from 30 feet away, on drugs or not, and stop them DEAD.what are you going do when in an adrenaline frenzied shot of 00 goes through a wall, and you go in back bedroom and your wife or child has been STOPPED DEAD?........BY YOU. and i hope you dont live anywhere near me

 

Lol, you haven't seen very many OIS reports have you? I still remember one where an officer shot some kid point blank in the chest cavity with OO Buck. Kid ran 45 yards. Coroner said the heart/lungs "were shredded". Kid was drug-free, just being stupid and pointed a weapon (don't remember if it was real or a look-alike) at the cop in his cruiser.

 

The human body is so much tougher than you give it credit for. So much more.

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i could shoot you sqaure in chest with a 410, with #8 shot, from 30" away and you would not take another step. why dont you just tie a grenade to the front door, or maybe some C4.

 

If you did that to me and my eyes/corotid arteries escaped damage, I would tear you a new one. Number 8 shot at 90 feet is NOT going to incapacitate me. It is going to make me VERY angry though, and after you exhaust your magazine, it is going to take me VERY little time to cover those 90 feet.

 

Birdshot just WON'T put a person down. Anyone who thinks it will, I pray they never try it. The likely result will be complete shock when their assailant goes into a killing frenzy. Before they break out of this "OMG I emplied the tube at him and hes still coming at me!" paralysis, it will be too late.

 

Here is what happens when you shoot someone with birdshot.

 

King, 42, was shot two or three times from a distance by birdshot fired from a shotgun late Wednesday. He then bicycled about 11/2 miles back to his home in neighboring Rialto and called police. King was hit in the face, arms, back and torso, police said.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2007/nov/30/rodney-king-struck-by-birdshot/

 

All six victims, between the ages of 15 and 17, were being treated at Shands Jacksonville hospital with non-life-threatening injuries, said Ken Jefferson, a spokesman for the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office.

The first shooting occurred about 2:30 p.m. when a car pulled up outside a house where four men were sitting on the porch. A single shot from a shotgun came from a vehicle and all the victims were peppered with bird shot, said Sheriff John Rutherford

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-05-01-florida-multiple-shooting_N.htm

 

Oh yeah, here is your "30 yard shot". Just as Dick Cheney, he knows how ineffective the stuff is first-hand.

 

A Texas Parks and Wildlife Department report said Whittington was retrieving a downed bird and stepped out of the hunting line he was sharing with Cheney. "Another covey was flushed and Cheney swung on a bird and fired, striking Whittington in the face, neck and chest at approximately 30 yards," the report said. A Texas Parks and Wildlife Department report said Whittington was retrieving a downed bird and stepped out of the hunting line he was sharing with Cheney.

 

So...if you want to go ahead and use birdshot, be my guest, but again...I pray you never have to use it, because if you do, and your assailant is armed, "outlook not so good".

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Unobtanium, I agree. There is a term "Stop the action"or shoot and keep shooting until lack of offensive movement. Small buckshot is the best bet. I have shot many deer w/slugs and they never reacted, just ran until death. The deer shot w/buckshot go down and, given the chance, often get up. Humans are harder to figure(we are predators) but every mind is different. If a predator is after me I am going to stop the action.

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Unobtanium, I agree. There is a term "Stop the action"or shoot and keep shooting until lack of offensive movement. Small buckshot is the best bet. I have shot many deer w/slugs and they never reacted, just ran until death. The deer shot w/buckshot go down and, given the chance, often get up. Humans are harder to figure(we are predators) but every mind is different. If a predator is after me I am going to stop the action.

 

Yeah baby!

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Unobtanium, I agree. There is a term "Stop the action"or shoot and keep shooting until lack of offensive movement. Small buckshot is the best bet. I have shot many deer w/slugs and they never reacted, just ran until death. The deer shot w/buckshot go down and, given the chance, often get up. Humans are harder to figure(we are predators) but every mind is different. If a predator is after me I am going to stop the action.

 

 

I am looking to interrupt the CNS or cause a 20% blood volumn loss the fastest way I can. That obviously means birdshot and other rounds that won't reach major organs are out. I feel that #1 buck is the smallest one should go due to the possibility of heavy clothing, ect. ect.

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There was a guy in Illinois last year that was shot (not on purpus) at 25 yards with bird shot in the field when hunting. died on the spot. My gun patterns 1 1/4 4 shot with a mod. choke with just about all of the pellets in the 4 inch circle at 10 feet. Which in the max. distance in my house. 1 1/4 of lead coming at you at 1350 feet per second. is their going to put you on the ground for good or knock you down so hard you won't want to get back up. On drugs or not.

 

Check out Clint Smith at Gunsite. He say 1 oz 8 shot 12 gauge will put one down no problem (under 7 yards) with a well place shot. People at gunsite are the best at what they do. But what does he know.

 

Novaking

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There was a guy in Illinois last year that was shot (not on purpus) at 25 yards with bird shot in the field when hunting. died on the spot. My gun patterns 1 1/4 4 shot with a mod. choke with just about all of the pellets in the 4 inch circle at 10 feet. Which in the max. distance in my house. 1 1/4 of lead coming at you at 1350 feet per second. is their going to put you on the ground for good or knock you down so hard you won't want to get back up. On drugs or not.

 

Check out Clint Smith at Gunsite. He say 1 oz 8 shot 12 gauge will put one down no problem (under 7 yards) with a well place shot. People at gunsite are the best at what they do. But what does he know.

 

Novaking

 

Okay, maybe a small lesson in terminal ballistics is in order. I will include pictures, because frankly, they are pretty and I like them.

 

bird_8_heavy_dove_a.jpg

 

^That is your #8 heavy dove bird-shot. We are not even considering that the man might have on a leather or other thick jacket, and most certainly won't be naked, like this block of gelatin is. We can only guess at how much less it would penetrate going through a leather or heavy coat (which, if I were breaking into a house, I would wear to obscure my build).

 

Here is some OO buckshot. Now remember, the skin on the back is = to about 4" of gelatin, and clothing worn also impairs penetration, so that "18" or whatever that OO penetrates in gel, could realistically be as little as 10-12" on a heavily clad person with some muscle-mass and a sternum.

 

[

buck_00_d.jpg

 

Now here is a GREAT! Link for you to look at before you begin to feel like 3-4" penetration on a naked block of gello is "good enough".

 

http://www.brassfetcher.com/OJ%20gunshot%20thread.pdf

 

Check it out. There are ribs, a sternum, and sometimes brachial and radial bones, as well as considerable muscle, in the way.

 

Here is another post for you to read. It depicts in one post how an officer lost his life due to birdshot being in his shotgun (read the post for an explanation).

http://www.theboxotruth.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=594

^That poster hosts "Box 'O Truth" and was LE for quite some time. He has seen what different things will do to the human body.

 

As for Clint Smith "recommending birdshot". Please, do not say things like that about Clint. Here is what someone who attended one of his classes heard him to say about it. When did you last speak with him?

 

"Clint doesn't recommend birdshot for defense, but it is a good and cheap load for practice." - http://theboxotruth.com/docs/edu61.htm (11th block of text on page one of this link).

 

NOW. If you still insist on using a load that has been proven time and time again to be inferior to other offerings, then I guess there is nothing I or anyone else can tell you to change your mind. I simply hope that you live out your days peacefully and never find out whether or not you are one of the lucky ones, or unlucky ones, when it comes to the birdshot working. Me? I will pick a round that is going to put them DOWN. I recommend you re-think your strategy and do the same.

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we are talking about a distance of 10-20FEET, not 90 yds. its not 90yds across my intire yard. you have just proven what we have been saying all along. over penatration kills inoccent bystanders. thats our arguement to start with.your pics prove that 00 buckshot is going to exit the intruder and penatrate whatever wall is behind them. the pics prove that "birdshot" would be more than effective at putting an intruder on the retreat, the man i had to shoot came in my house at 2am looking for the man that had been seeing his wife was in a blind rage.6' 4" tall and 280lbs, not knowing he had the wrong house he kicked my front door in and came down my hall,holding a hand gun. i caught him in the chest just below his right nipple with a 20ga, 26"i/c barrel with a 3dram, 7/8 oz load of #7 1/2 shot. it knocked the gun completely out of his hand and knock him 20'ft back. he lived about 3 minutes, long enough to tell police that he was in the wrong house after he saw me. he died before the ambulance got there. can you imagine your chest looking like that ballistic gel?? and leather does very little to stop lead. i could shoot you in the chest with a 410 with 1/2oz of shot from 20ft, with you wearing a leather vest or even a flak jacket, and even if it does not kill you , you are NOT going to want a second one. its more than likely going to crush your sternum, and break several ribs. i mean if you insist on MAXIMUM KILL POWER, chunk all the fancy riot style 12ga, and get your self a 10ga double barrel coach gun, and load it with 1/2" steal ball bearings.then go inside it, and file the hammer sear on the second barrel so when you pull the trigger it fires both barrels. the only person i want in danger is the one invading my home.

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O, maybe your right. I will just start using my 454 caual with hard lead. (maybe 300 grains).

 

 

I didn't say Clint recommends bird shot. He says it will do the job. He was talking about 1 oz 8 shot. I use 1 1/4 4 shot max dram. Clint also talks about over penatration.

 

 

I think this post was to ask what people use for home defence. I have a wife and two kids. My two kids sleep in different rooms. All the rooms are on the same floor and both of there rooms are on different corners of the house. I will not, I WILL NOT pull the tigger thinking in the the back of my head that a round of buckshot or a slug will past though someone, though a wall, and hit my kid. Not to mention a neighor. I don't even want to kill the person in my house. Anyone that thinks that is ok is sick and should be in jail.

 

Plus, almost anyone can get some kind of body armor now. Which buckshot or birdshot will not penatrate.

 

Maybe you don't have kids. Maybe you do and don't care. You will learn the hard way someday. Hope you don't.

 

Good luck to all.

 

Novaking

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If you have a hall that is well over 20' long I am impressed! I know you didn't shoot him with the muzzle pressed against him, so what does this mean? Maybe a 30' hall? Well, I live in an appartment (brick exterior walls, before you ask), so maybe I am just a bit mentally cramped when imagining a felon flying 20' PLUS his distance from me when I fired without hitting a wall/furniture. How high off the ground was he lifted? Did it look like when Popeye gives a bad guy an upper-cut? or was it like, he was running backwards windmilling his arms? I am trying to picture this and not able to. Also, 3 minutes? Your cops have some GREAT response time. Then again, I have a lot of friends in DFW and there is a pretty good police presence in some areas.

 

My advice? Your opinion is obviously as out of proportion as your account. If you care THIS much about "overpenetration" then get an Ar-15 and run hornady T2 in it. One wall and it frags beyond recognition. It will ALSO penetrate 12-14" in a felon along with massive fragmentation. Maybe a shotgun isn't the weapon you need for your task.

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! I know you didn't shoot him with the muzzle pressed against him, so what does this mean? Maybe a 30' hall? Well, I live in an appartment (brick exterior walls, before you ask), so maybe I am just a bit mentally cramped when imagining a felon flying 20' PLUS his distance from me when I fired without hitting a wall/furniture. How high off the ground was he lifted? Did it look like when Popeye gives a bad guy an upper-cut? or was it like, he was running backwards windmilling his arms? I am trying to picture this and not able to. .

 

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!

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OK , ILL SPELL IT ALL OUT FOR YOU. SO MAYBE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND IT....MAYBE ...,MY BEDROOM IS 18' SQAURE, MY HALL IS 12' LONG, MY LIVING ROOM IS 18'X21' ALL IN A STRAIGHT LINE WITH EACH OTHER.TOTAL THATS 51'. I WAS IN THE BEDROOM ON THE FAR SIDE OF THE BED WITH MY GIRLFRIEND OF THAT TIME BEHIND ME.THERE IS A SMALL BATHROOM OFF TO THE LEFT SIDE OF THE HALL THAT A LIGHT IS LEFT ON, THATS HOW I SAW THE GUN IN HIS HAND. WE WERE IN THE DARK, I TOLD HIM STOP, HE THEN STARTED TO RAISE THE GUN AND I FIRED. NO IT DID NOT LOOK LIKE A CARTOON . IT LOOKED LIKE HE HAD BEEN HIT BY A CAR. AS FOR THE POLICE ISSUE, A NEIGHBOR WHO USUALY WORKED NIGHTS WAS OFF THAT PATICULAR NIGHT, SAW HIM GET OUT OF HIS CAR WITH THE GUN AND CALLED POLICE THE GUY WALKED AROUND FOR SEVERAL MINUTES TRYING TO DECIDE WHAT MOBLE HOME TO ENTER. WE LIVED IN TRAILER PARK. AND THE POLICE DEPT WAS ONLY 8 BLOCKS FROM WHERE I LIVED. I NO LONGER USE A SHOT GUN FOR HOME DEFENSE,I USE A 357 LOADED WITH SAFETY ROUNDS.:mad:

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