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M2 cycling issue.


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Mr. Mudhen Sir,

 

I have just bought a Benelli, my first, so please exuse my inexperience. It seems to me that any adjustments made to the gun behind the barrel and chamber would have minimal, if any, POI effect when using the 2 beads attached to said barrel for sighting. I admittedly have not had the opportunity to experiment, but my intuition tells me that changing the shims will not change the POI. Before even shooting the gun, I maximized my drop. Since I am a large person, and the distance from my eyes to my shoulder is longer than average, I figured this would be a good place to start. A subsequent clay shooting session left me feeling pretty good with the setup. I was also blessed with success on a recent turkey hunting trip, with a 30 yard shot at a decent 3 year old tom, so my gun would seem to be shooting well.

 

You, seem to have considerable experience which would contradict my intuition, however you offer no sound argument for your case except to insult those who would disagree, accusing them of having "little knowledge, if any, on how the Benelli shim system works". Please, if you would, educate us, to a sufficient level of detail, on the mechanics of how the shims effect the POI. So far your arguement has been unconvincing.

 

Until I am able to experiment with this myself, my bet is that HH is right.

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Originally posted by siskr:

Mr. Mudhen Sir,

 

It seems to me that any adjustments made to the gun behind the barrel and chamber would have minimal, if any, POI effect when using the 2 beads attached to said barrel for sighting.

Theoretically it makes sense. If you fix the gun in the vise, you don’t need any shims or stock at all. But I really respect experienced people’s practical opinion, and maybe in real-life situation it makes difference and Mudhen knows what he’s saying. Let’s wait to see the article.
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You sir, have little or no knowledge of how the Benelli shim system works.

 

You mention two beads. The M2 has one bead from the factory, or at least the five I looked at today did.

 

Also, what you consider 'minimal' may be very important to some shooters. Minimal at 30 yards may not be at 45...

 

I have made no 'arguement'. That you are unconvinced does not concern me. I have merely been pointing out my observations over the last 17 years of shooting and adjusting Benellis. This recent article, which I will try to scan and post next week, provides more than adequate support for my own position.

 

I sir, have no knowledge on how a combustion engine works.

 

Should I consider it an insult if a mechanic informs me that I lack such knowledge? I think not as he is merely making an accurate statement of fact.

 

Donnie says vacuum...

 

Here is the key to the article and my own experience;

 

The Benelli shim changes the angle of the entire gun from where the stock meets the receiver.

 

Presuming you hold the gun stock the same before and after changing the shim, you are now holding a weapon that is aiming at a different point than it was prior to the change of the shim.

 

Pre-grip alterations, such as some stock bending methods or the use of the adjustable butt-pad system, are commonly used to improve the fit of the individual shooters, not to change the POI.

 

If however, you do alter your grip and/or hold(which I do not), after a shim change, then maybe you will not experince the POI changes that myself and others have.

 

Given that Benelli stocks themselves are not adjustable, and that their directions clearly state that they intend the shims to be used to change POI, are further support of this theory.

 

That all of my Benellis can be adjusted in this manner and have the POI affected, is merely additional support for my own position.

 

This shooter has already stated that his POI changed when he changed a shim. Is he too incorrect?

 

Donnie says vacuum...

 

mudhen - CA

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OK , here is a definitive test. Put a scope on one of your favorite benelli shotguns and shoot a tight choke from a rest like you would for turkey hunting. Zero the scope so that you're dead on at 35 yrds. Then, change the shims and re-shoot and see if you point of impact changes.

 

 

PS, I already know the results.

 

 

good hunting.

 

 

HH

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I think you two are looking at the same issue from two different vantages.

 

The Benelli shim kit WILL change the POI, if the shooter shoulders the weapon and sights it in a natural manner, as in typical wingshooting.

 

The same shooter, given a certain amount of time to do so, could alter his grip and position if trying to sight the weapon as one would typically do a rifle.

 

Even if that's the case, I can see a marked advantage to using the shim kit to bring the natural mount as close as possible to the adjusted mount.

 

If I were having a patterning problem with my SBEII when shooting turkeys, I'd most certainly remedy the situation by mounting a red dot of some kind.

 

I would not want to have the stock permanently altered from its current setup, however because it wingshoots (points) beautifully.

 

I choose the shims by using this test.

 

Pick a target on a wall or whatever, close eyes and shoulder the gun to try and acquire the target, open eyes.

When you open your eyes and are on target, you have adjusted you natural POI and POA to closely match.

This way, you're not shouldering the gun and then making subtle, but time-consuming adjustments to get on target.

The Benelli shim kit is made to allow most shooters to be able to make these tweaks themselves, without the added expense of professional fitting.

 

The shim kit assumes the shooter is of averarge build and sights a shotgun as does most the population, with both eyes opened and the target clearly visible above the rib and bead.

 

I recommend that both the OP and HH watch the first two videos on this page.

 

[ 05-07-2006, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: tucker301 ]

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Not trying to beat a dead horse, but here goes. I mentioned in a previous post, shiming the gun will make your gun shoot higher or lower depending which shim you use, IN REGARDS TO THE WINGSHOOTER OR CLAY BIRD SHOOTER, AKA... MOVING TARGETS. This is when you point a shotgun at a moving target.

 

I don't care how you look at it, when you use the bead to aim a a fixed postion target, such as a turkey, your bead and vent rib are fixed to the barrel. Its gonna shoot where it shoots period. I don't care if you shim that stock with a brick, or turn it upside down. The only way to change it is adjustable sights mounted to the vent rib, this will allow to to adjust your pattern or slug up or down, and or left and right. Or if your pattern is just high or low, a bigger bead will lower your pattern, a smaller one will raise it.

BENELLI ALSO CONFIRMED THIS IN OUR PHONE CONVERSATION.

 

I recieved a bead from Benelli, twice as large as the orginal M2 bead. It is the huge bead that is on the Nova. Pattern's are now perfectly center. Nuff said! Somebody will still say I'm wrong.

 

Tucker I've been shooting for 29 years, i've taken many turkeys in several states over the years. One things for sure, don't go to the woods without a proven gun. With the larger bead, its ready to go now.

 

AGAIN, CHANGING SHIM'S WILL NOT RAISE OR LOWER YOU PATTERN WHEN USING YOUR BEAD TO AIM AT A FIXED TARGET. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT BENELLI SAID ALSO!

 

What more do you need to hear. Like I said, I didn't come hear to bash anyone, or insult anyone's intellengence. Don't bash me or insult mine.

 

[ 05-07-2006, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: perrytrails ]

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Pardon me for my lack of clarity. First of all, I do not shoot an M2; my SDBII has 2 beads. Secondly, I have no doubt that a change to the shims will have a significant impact on POI under the typical wingshooting scenarios. this is what they are for. As for all shotguns, when you use your eye for the rear sight, how you hold the gun, and how the gun "fits" you have significant impact on where you shoot. However, again, I seriously doubt that a shim change will do diddly if you use the 2 beads (on an SBEII), or a scope as previously mentioned, to line up your target. I'm done with this dead horse.

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Your exactly right siskr, be it two beads or one, changeing a shim will only raise or lower your shot when mounting a shotgun and shooting at a moving target.

 

I'm also done with the horse!

 

[ 05-07-2006, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: perrytrails ]

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I have read this thread completely and perrytrails and HH are 100% correct. You dont change

the POI by changing shims if you are using the

beads on the rib to sight your object. Shims

make sense when you wing shoot because you

dont use the barrel to sight your object, you use your eye as the sighting device and its imperative that the gun point where you look.

Quite the opposite for turkey hunting purposes.

 

 

ARCHER

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Here is the last update on the cycling issue. I just spoke to the dealer and the package arrived at the Benelli site but it was empty. So I wait until FEDEX claim is complete with dealer and I can pick out my new gun. Now I can reconsider the SBEII vs M2 possiblities. Although M2 has left a bad taste in my mouth. Things could not have worked out any better. I feel sorry for the guy who stole a left handed gun that has cycling issues.

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Sounds like it was your lucky day !!! I think

benelli is basically a great gun, but there is no reason that these guns should have operating

problems other than the occasional lemon gun,

that benelli would stand behind.

 

ArchDriver

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Even though I haven't commented, I have been watching this thread with interest.

 

FWIW I just got a new M2 in late March. Haven't had a single problem with it.

 

I have shot a bunch of light game loads and patterned some turkey loads thru it and have not had a single failure to cycle, nor have I had the problem of it shooting high when using the bead for turkey targets.

 

However, when I do use the bead I make sure my cheek is low on the stock so that I can't see the top of the rib. That's the way I've always used a bead when shooting turkeys.

 

The only concern I have with the gun is that it’s really light…considerably lighter than my Remington 1187. That being said the M2 really kicks when shooting 3” Magnum turkey loads through it. Luckily, I don’t shoot that many turkey loads.

 

Other than that I really like the gun.

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