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Duggan

Since my original thread got deleted and this one likely will too.

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On the VT shooting and my previous post that benelli has deleted for some reason:

 

I had forgotten the vendetta many on this board seem to have against arfcom.

 

My link to their thread was not meant to be anything other than a source for the latest information ... its an extremely active thread, even if in the GD.

 

As far as the opinions contained and expressed in it being offensive ... have you seen the spin that is already being put on by the media? I find that to be 100x more offensive than anything I saw on that thread, and everyone is being exposed to that.

 

As far as cops hiding behind trees ... I'm calling it how I see it, in the videos and pictures. To me, it just emphasizes how truly on your own you are in this type of situation ... wasn't really meant as a cheap shot at the cops. I recognize that my opinion of LEOs is not likely to be shared by many here.

 

But I didn't make this thread for any of this petty stuff. I made it because no one else had yet, and because its a tragedy that could have some serious waves. Again, heads up.

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i dont know why the thread was deleted either, there was zero reason to do so..one thing for sure, im starting to not like the 'big brother' attitude around here and may just move on to a more friendly and less elitist forums.

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with nothing being done to remove offensive/vulgar posts per this privacy statement? Double standards i guess are allowed for people in the click?:D

 

Report the post, then something gets done. Don't expect that a moderator reads every thread ever posted, it just isn't realistic to believe that possible.

 

My thoughts and prayer go out to the victims, their families, friends and relatives.

 

Very much so. It would be awful to have had loved ones there.

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My prayers go out to the families that it happened to. It was a horrible thing that happened. But I do wonder, why did no one fight back? He had ONE 9 mm handgun, if the people in the school would have fought back many lives would have been saved. I'm sorry if this post was offensive to anyone, this is just my thought on the matter.

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Liberty or Death Jr.

 

I've been wondering the exact same thing.

Wouldn't it possibly be better to just charge the sick freak if you realize what he's going to do anyway?

 

MaxSecured

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ive asked that exact same question over and over in my head. It seems like we are raising kids that (most) dont have the will to survive and the will to fight back and not go down w/o a fight. I wasnt in those rooms but i do know i wouldnt lay there on the ground and allow him to walk around the room and re-load and continue to shoot w/o attemptng to snap his neck..that would be just a strong survival instinct and im not walkin on the graves of the dead, some obviously had no chance to even run, let alone fight..such a shame

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Most likely has to do with television. They have been desensitized by it, they think that little pistol has the power of a howitser, and that it will go through doors, furniture, desks, and still have the power to kill you. He was killing them with out even thinking and they just sat there and let it happen. The second I saw him go to reload I would have jumped on him and beat him to death, but I also know how a gun works. I wonder how many in the school didn't?

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Please don't dishonor these kids by second-guessing their reactions or lack thereof.

 

These were kids who have probably never even been in a heavy argument, much less any kind of physical conflict.

 

Armchair QB'ing is pretty easy stuff when you've got all the time in the world to view the news reports and to digest exactly what was going on in those classrooms.

I'm sure if the students had gotten a script, they could have done better.

 

These kids didn't have that luxury. They went from another sedate and normal day at school to utter chaos and armageddon under fire in a matter of a few seconds.

 

Without intensive military or police training, I dare say that any of us would have done much better than covering our heads and ducking for whatever cover was available.

 

Don't believe me? Think you're better than that?

BS!

 

Look at some of those videos where the cops get into shootouts on routine traffic stops.

I've seen trained LE empty an entire clip and not even hit the assailant. In some cases, they don't even hit the car he's driving.

 

You guys watch WAY too much tv.:mad:

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Perhaps you are right tucker, but you would think some kind of instinct would take over, instead of watching other people get killed methodicly, and you are waiting your turn to get shot or hiding behind a door watching. How many people are in that school? Only one stood up to him? :confused:

 

But honestly, one guy with a 9mm pistol, hundreds of people around, no one tried to stop him. Makes a lot of sense. :mad:

 

Many people had a chance to do something, the people shot didn't really, but I would have tried something if someone was getting ready to end my life if I didn't. Other people had a good 2 hours to try something, heck, all it would take is 2 minutes to come up with a plan. Throw a chair at him, run at him with a desk, do something, don't wait your turn to die. It isn't his right to take your life, don't let him. My thoughts on the subject, thats all Tuck.

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Hundreds of people do what people do when they hear gunshots. They haul it in the other direction.

That's about all the instinct we humans have.

It's not very sharp, because most of us go for entire lifetime without experiencing much more than a playground wrestle or two.

The instinct is self-preservation by getting as far away from the danger as possible.

As I understand it, most of the victims were trapped inside classrooms with no cover and with the shooter blocking the only exit.

This short-cicuited the flight instinct and I imagine most of them either froze in their tracks or dove to the floor, hoping that it would stop as abruptly as it had begun.

 

In a twisted way, the shooter was the only one in there who knew exactly what he was doing. He had rehearsed it over and over again in his demented mind until it had become like a video game to him. He was completely detached from any moral compass or conscience.

 

As for the two hours elapsed, I think the full investigation will yield that some things could have been handled better, but there a few things to keep in mind.

 

The campus is open and sprawling, 2600 acres with many ways in and out. It is not a fort and it is not intended to be.

 

With over 35,000 students, teachers, staff, and visitors, the campus is a pretty good sized city.

 

You can't simply close a door or two and call it secured.

You can't immediately notify 35,000 people that there is grave danger.

 

As a young student yourself, I'm sure you're running through your own mind how this would play out at your school.

 

I suggest that you channel that energy into something positive in your own school and community.

 

Ask your parents, school officials, and community leaders how they are prepared to handle something like this.

 

Look beyond the obvious stuff and ask about communications, emergency response systems and their ETA's.

Ask about self-defense training and crisis management training for your schools.

Hold them to task and don't let them shrug you off.

 

Ask about how you should react to other students who speak of violent acts or who do things that are unsettling to you, but keep in mind that we all must have our rights to privacy as well.

 

Start a program in your school that brings students from all scholastic, social, and economic levels together in some way so that they may learn about each other, and learn to respect each other.

 

I've read your posts and we've traded some PM's.

You are an exceptionally intelligent and articulate young man. Don't use up all of that talent yacking with old geezers on forums :cool:.

Spread it around a little.

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Tucker, i agree with you that some of the kids had zero chance to do anything (already stated that) however, after hearin gunshots in an adjacent room you have to realize what is going on. He killed people in FOUR rooms and a stairwell. Perhaps its b/c of my military and police training and that i am very proficient with my weapon and willing to step in that i just dont understand how classrooms FULL of strapping young college boys cant over power a 155 lb coward at SOME point. I heard it best on the news today, a former police investigator said it best, his words..' i think we are breeding the survival instinct out of our children'..i think he has a point. I want to teach my daughter to recognize the sounds of gunfire, have a potential plan available and do EVERYTHING possible to survive, be it fight or flight.

Dont get upset at us for trying to find answers and question what has happened and how to better stop it next time..its funny tho, the only one APPARENTLY that even tried to do somethin was a 76 yr old proffessor, who was a survivor early on in life and that carried over to this event..from early reports he saved numerous lives attempting to hold that door. Bottomline is , im not going down w/o a fight and i just dont understand people that do w/o trying. bless them all

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Tuck, once again, I'm homeschooled, and live 20 miles from the nearest town. I live on a 1,200 acre ranch and have access to over 12,000 acres. I work a lot, do my homeschooling, hunt, fish and spend time with my dogs. Not much else to do sometimes but to talk to old geezers on these forums. :D

 

I have been around guns my whole life, I know how they work, I know what to do when a gun is pointing at me. Especially when he was reloading, I would know exactly what to do there, take him down!

 

You're right, many of them froze, many ran, many couldn't do anything, but there were also many that could have that didn't. There was one young guy that they said fought back, he was the first shot I believe. But I think the media is hyping that up a little more than it is. Maybe not, just my opinion.

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I've seen this same question on multiple forums - why didn't a bunch of them rush him and take him out. I'm actually surprised they didn't. It seems after 9/11 that people have been a little more willing to step up and not be instant victims.

 

Many of us are "superman" in our own minds. We think about what we would or wouldn't do, but as stated, hindsight is sure an easier scenario than actual bullets flying at you. I would hope that I could keep my cool and be able to help those around me, as well as save my own life, but until you're there, you'll never know, and I hope I never have to find out.

 

The Professor who had survived the Holocaust, made it out alive and wound up in our country teaching at a university, he knew what death was like and gave the ultimate sacrifice. John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. I just can't say how moved I was to read what he had done for his students. What an impressive man.

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Ya, the avg. person out there has no idea about guns. Like you said Liberty, they think handguns are these super high power weapons that they have no chance against. Gun people would know to RUN! Heprobably wouldn't be able to hit somebody running and zigging & zagging. Also, only experienced shooters would know to charge him while he is reloading. Hindsight is 20/20; who knows how any one of us would have done in the extreme shock and surprise of the moment. One thing for sure though, depriving people of an effective means of defence is NOT the answer! Think if even one person there had been armed, the whole outcome might have been less tragic.

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Boy, that is a question that may never be answered. Like everyone else, I can only offer an opinion. One of the other posters probably hit the nail on the head. No experience dealing with a real world situation such as this. Think about this if you have kids, and I have three, one in college and two in high school. What would your kids have done ? I know for a fact that my children have an edge over some kids the same age because their father is a police officer. They have been with me at times in my marked police unit when I have been obligated to take police action. WE have rehearsed what to do. Time permitting, I drop them off at a well lit location before doing anything, but sometimes it happens too fast. They were all taught to run away from the police vehicle the moment the vehicle stops. But this, this was totally different. My kids may very well have done the same thing as some of the kids who have already told their accounts of this tragedy. They tried to hide or lay motionless probably thinking if I don't move he won't know I'm here. They were taken by surprise. They didn't have the benefit of working on a plan of action. Would you want to bum rush an armed suspect to find that you were the only person making a move ? It's just not human nature to rush and active shooter, something that you already know is potential suicide. And what about this ? We actively instruct attendees at our crime watch classes not to resist. If they want your purse or the money from the cash box, don't fight. Remember that ? So what's the solution. I don't know. We train in law enforcement to always be aware of our surroundings and to be weary of those who are close enough to do us harm. It's called being in the red zone. Until i'm satisfied that everything is ok, I stay in a modified form of the red zone even when i'm off duty. Ya ever wonder why that cop looks at you like ya got two heads when you speak to him or approach him unexpectedly. He's probably in the red zone. May they all rest in peace and may whatever higher being they worship give their family members the strength to get through this.

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I know by this point you all know he had two guns...not "JUST" a 9mm. A Walther P22 and Glock 19. As for the ones that are wondering why the kids didnt do anything...I have to ask how many of you have ever had shots in anger fired at you? If so I am sure you were probably in a situation where it was expected and you were at least mentaly prepared for it. I would HOPE in that situation I would be willing to fight, but I cant say for sure I would and I damn sure cant fault a single person in there for not doing it.

 

As for rushing him when he was reloading...what are you talking about??? Forget about the fact that he had 2 guns...he wasn't pushing shells into the bottom of a Benelli. It takes at most a half a second to drop a clip and slap another one in Glock (and thats asuming he empties the one in the gun....even less if he had enough sense to change them before the were empty.) Do any of you think you could rush someone during that time??? I have heard he had at least 17 clips (and some were the 30 shot Glock 9mm clips.) As for it being JUST a 9mm....I think you must have been playing with your shotgun too much. I think a 9mm at close quarters against an unarmed person is pretty significant weapon. Besides at Columbine of the 13 killed the majority were killed with a Tech 9.....NOT the sawed off shotguns they had. Of course thats because they were using birdshot because buckshot hurt the wrists too much.

 

I think the one thing that stands out to me is how this guy was able to buy these guns and he not even a US citizen. How screwed up is that? It really sucks that our gun ownership rights are now endangered because of that.

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Given what they faced, I think the students and faculty did pretty well when taken suddenly "under fire". The whole incident in Norris Hall took place in a very short time. One classroom managed to barricade their door and prevent access - that was good thinking and good improvisation. Students in another classroom chose to flee out a window when they realized the shooter was going to get in. Their professor sacrificed himself to buy them time, true heroism.

 

Its easy to sit at home with our Benellis within reach, watch the news and think, "Well, "I would have...."

 

I have to disagree with comment above "an experienced shooter would know to rush him while reloading". Most defensive training emphasizes cover, concealment and increasing your distance from an armed attacker. Even without formal training, most of the students figured this, and their reactions reflect this.

 

I wonder if any of the students and faculty were former police officers or military or had civilian training in self defense. Given that there were hundreds of people in the building, I would expect there were a few.

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My prayers go out to the families that it happened to. It was a horrible thing that happened. But I do wonder, why did no one fight back? He had ONE 9 mm handgun, if the people in the school would have fought back many lives would have been saved. I'm sorry if this post was offensive to anyone, this is just my thought on the matter.

Because the Virginia House of Delegates put down a bill the week before that would have forced the University to abide by Virginia State Law that allows for concealed carry. The university fought the law, saying it had no serious threats.

 

As it stands today, your choices on a Virginia campus are self-defense and expulsion - or death.

 

http://www.vcdl.org has more info on this topic

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Same in Arizona. To protect us, they put bright red stickers that say "Weapons Free Campus" on all the doors at the UofA with the phone number of the police department.

 

I wonder if the stickers are bulletproof?

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I know by this point you all know he had two guns...not "JUST" a 9mm. A Walther P22 and Glock 19.

Where did you get this information, I have yet to see anything where it mentions anything about a second gun. He bought a glock at a firearms store, got a bunch of ammo and shot up a school. And half a second to throw drop a clip and throw a nother one in? You do watch too much TV. I only know a few proffessional shooters that can do that. I can't throw one in that fast, but granted most of the students didn't know a thing about guns, so I see why they ran.

 

I personally, know how guns work. My dad shot a deer with a 9mm at 10-15 yards, a FMJ, you know what happened? It bounced off, maybe bruised the deer a bit, but it bounced off. I'll tell you what I would do if someone put a handgun in my face, I would grab it a friggen kill the guy, or at least try. If I heard shooting, I would come up with a plan real quick. This is stuff I would do, and believe it or not, I am prepared for this kind of stuff, I know what kind of world we live in. I see things like this on the news and stuff, I'm always waiting for something like this to happen.

 

So, they didn't know about guns, they didn't know how to react in this kind of situation, I just figured someone would have done something, especially a school of "strapping young lads."

 

I'll let this post go now, as it will just continue with further argument. :D

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EVERY major news outlet has published the fact that these two guns were used.

 

The rest of the comments are ignored.

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Time for homework Jr.......You better do a little research on your last comment. The .22cal bullet is one of the most deadly rounds in the history of firearms.

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