Alaska_Bear Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 I hate to wiz on everyone’s spark plugs, but putting a full-lenght magazine tube on a non-NFA M4 that has a pistol grip is illegal—PERIOD! Buying one is OK, as is selling one, but put it on the gun, get caught, and your butt is hanging out there. If you look at the law you will see that because it is a foreign made semi-auto shotgun, and does not have the required number of U.S. made parts, it can only have one (1) of the following; magazine capacity over 5 shots, flash suppressor, bayonet lug, pistol grip, removable magazine, folding or collapsible stock. The reason Benelli stopped selling the M1014 stock to civilians is because it has both the pistol grip AND the collapsible stock which is in violation of federal firearms law. Don’t believe me—call ATF.. I have spoken with the ATF Technology Branch in West Virginia at great length about this and they assured me that this is absolutely the case and doing otherwise is a violation of the Gun Control Act. The fact that some of the mag tubes are a U.S. made part means NOTHING. It is a felony which carries stiff fines and jail time. It would also preclude one from owning ANY firearms and/or working for the federal government. As has been outlined on this site before by another member, the ONLY way around this is to re-classify the gun as an NFA Class III weapon. The way you would do this is to call it a “short-barreled shotgun”. You don’t actually have to make the barrel short as some people assume; you just have to re-class the receiver. This is done with ATF Form 1— Application to Make and Register a Firearm. It costs $200 and requires being signed off by the chief law enforcement officer in your area. If you are a Law Enforcement officer, same-same—without having to pay the $200, but it still needs to have the change registered with ATF. The ATF guy went on to tell me that the main way they catch people who do stuff like this is when they go on the web and blab. I have to assume that all of the people who have posted photos of their modified M4s along with the description of what they did, have already received their Class III stamp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDRDKG Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 This has been covered before and most members that have the M4 know this and they take the risk. A police officer is NOT exempt from paying the 200.00 tax stamp. Just a department is and they dont need a form 1, they just order the guns they want and its regestered to the department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 I have to assume that all of the people who have posted photos of their modified M4s along with the description of what they did, have already received their Class III stamp. An accurate and valid assumption, I am sure. After all what is a $200. tax compared to the price of this fine weapon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milmauler Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Absolutley Alaska Bear, Many people have turned their m4's into illegal shotguns. The ATF term is Destructive Device as it has over a 1/2" bore. A DD is OK if you have registered it as such. You cannot turn a M4 into an "any other weapon" as it originally came with a full length stock & it is classed as a shotgun because of this, even though it came with a pistol grip also. As an example what can be done with just a $5.00 tax stamp & Any Other Weapon class look at the Serbu Shorty, it still needs to be registered though. The Serbu was never a shotgun because it was never designed to be shoulder fired. You cannot do the AOW with the Benelli. Going through the parts changing game is futile in my opinion, if they want to make an example of you they can, just by saying you changed a sporting purpose shotgun into a non sporting one. The secretary gets to determine this on a whim. If you want to be really sure you are not breaking the law do as Alaska Bear says & register as a DD, you may also shorten the barrel or do what you want with it, it will all be declared & ATF approved. You will need to pay $200.00, I know I would sleep better paying the $200.00. If you are caught with an illegal DD maybe the ATF will give you a break, reminds me of the phrase "do you feel lucky". My advice is to have an attorney draw up a Revocable Trust & transfer your DD to this trust. You will need to engrave the receiver in tiny letters with name of your trust. You send the forms to ATF & tell them what you intend to do. I mention using a Revocable Trust so you won't get laughed out of your local police station asking for a signature. No signature is required, no fingerprints, no nothing except your application. The trust will cost a few bucks, it is well worth it though, you can own the firearms you want, see your state laws though. Most people can own silencers,SBR's,SBS's some even machine guns. My 2 cents worth of advice is to obey the law untill we can change it. Shine on, Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No F-Bdy Bs Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 I hate to wiz on everyone’s spark plugs, but putting a full-lenght magazine tube on a non-NFA M4 that has a pistol grip is illegal—PERIOD! Buying one is OK, as is selling one, but put it on the gun, get caught, and your butt is hanging out there. If you look at the law you will see that because it is a foreign made semi-auto shotgun, and does not have the required number of U.S. made parts, it can only have one (1) of the following; magazine capacity over 5 shots, flash suppressor, bayonet lug, pistol grip, removable magazine, folding or collapsible stock. The reason Benelli stopped selling the M1014 stock to civilians is because it has both the pistol grip AND the collapsible stock which is in violation of federal firearms law. Don’t believe me—call ATF.. I have spoken with the ATF Technology Branch in West Virginia at great length about this and they assured me that this is absolutely the case and doing otherwise is a violation of the Gun Control Act. The fact that some of the mag tubes are a U.S. made part means NOTHING. It is a felony which carries stiff fines and jail time. It would also preclude one from owning ANY firearms and/or working for the federal government. As has been outlined on this site before by another member, the ONLY way around this is to re-classify the gun as an NFA Class III weapon. The way you would do this is to call it a “short-barreled shotgun”. You don’t actually have to make the barrel short as some people assume; you just have to re-class the receiver. This is done with ATF Form 1— Application to Make and Register a Firearm. It costs $200 and requires being signed off by the chief law enforcement officer in your area. If you are a Law Enforcement officer, same-same—without having to pay the $200, but it still needs to have the change registered with ATF. The ATF guy went on to tell me that the main way they catch people who do stuff like this is when they go on the web and blab. I have to assume that all of the people who have posted photos of their modified M4s along with the description of what they did, have already received their Class III stamp. Ok, and? How about you worry about you, and ill worry about me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucker301 Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Boys, Please don't feed the troll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtGoat Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 I thought that if one added enough US produced parts the shotgun is considered (under the law) a domestic produced firearm. The US produced parts in question would be the US produced 7 round magazine, a US produced follower, and a US produced forearm. Is this in fact the case? Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMilitaryPolice Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 but what if someone bought the gun with the stock and tube before everything was deemed illegal?? It seems it would be hard to prosecute someone for owning an illegal firearm that when purchased was 100% legal...am i wrong on this or what?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMilitaryPolice Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 btt b/c i want an answer on the guns, stocks, tubes that were bought and instaled BEFORE they were deemed illegal..what about those guns?? are they grandfathered or what?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MENeelz Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 If you use the search function you will find lots of threads on this subject. Most people say that it violates 922r if you "make" a gun from imported parts which is like a gun that has been found by the Attorney General of the US to be not suitable for, or readily adaptable for sporting purposes. If BATF decided to charge you with a violation of that law for having an M4 that you modified, they'd have to convince a judge and jury that screwing on a stock that fits you better, and putting on a tube that holds two more shells for use in three gun competition, etc. is not a suitable sporting purpose and also that unscrewing these two parts and putting it back to original out of the box configuration is not "readily adaptable". Do you want to spend $X,000 in legal fees, or do you want to pay $200 and register it on a form 1 as an SBS, or do you want to buy five US made parts to reduce the number of "parts" as defined in 922r to 10 or less, at which point 922r no longer applies? You have three options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtGoat Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 To answer the question you would have to have a Benelli imported before 1989. The M4 was not even thought of back then. Some of the early M1S90's were imported by HK before this law went in to affect. For the US "produced" firearm I thought you had to replace three (one more than the M1S90's as the M4's have the gas pistons) parts. Would this not be the front handguard, follower, and magazine tube? Not sure where the 5 parts count came from but would certainly like to hear the reasoning. Yes, I have used the search function and came up with the three parts above based upon what I had read in previous posts. Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fett Tracking Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 alaskabear, you are a huge douchebag. i hope you get hit by a car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ding126 Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 LMAO...you said what I was thinking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbolt Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 The worst part about registering an M4 as a faux-NFA item will come if you try to sell and transfer it to another individual. Especially when it has your name and address engraved on the receiver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MENeelz Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 I have US made magazine tube, magazine follower and front handguard. I'm waiting for two more parts, hopefully a hammer and a disconnector so that I will only have 10 imported "parts" on my gun. Every once in a while, I close all the curtains, dim the lights, lock the doors, screw on the full length mag tube and slip on the collapsible stock just to see what it's going to look and feel like some day. Of course I only leave them on for a few minutes, and I have timed myself to make sure I can have the mag tube and stock both removed in the time it takes for BATF to kick down my front door, get past the dog, (I'll hear their shots when they shoot it) come through the house, get scolded by my wife for breaking the door, killing the dog and getting mud on her oriental rugs, and finally breach the door to my gun room. I'm just that kind of a scofflaw. Kinda like when the Duke boys used to drive General Lee home from town and the Sheriff would try to catch them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walstien Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 I called Benelli USA. There is no problem with these parts being installed. The just can't be imported that way. 922® is, and always has been, and import law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zodiac Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 I called Benelli USA. There is no problem with these parts being installed. The just can't be imported that way. 922® is, and always has been, and import law. Did'nt know Benelli was there on Saturday! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walstien Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 No, I didn't call Saturday... a few weeks ago. Call Benelli and they can clear up a LOT for you. It seems that a lot of people on these forums are reading other forums written by people who read other forums, usually with the disclaimer IANAL (I am not a lawyer). Call Benelli. They'll tell you. Call your local ATF field office. They'll laugh. They're not going after you. Its an import law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MENeelz Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 No, I didn't call Saturday... a few weeks ago. Call Benelli and they can clear up a LOT for you. It seems that a lot of people on these forums are reading other forums written by people who read other forums, usually with the disclaimer IANAL (I am not a lawyer). Call Benelli. They'll tell you. Call your local ATF field office. They'll laugh. They're not going after you. Its an import law. While I doubt that chasing down magazine or stock installers is a top priority for ATF, I think that the law in fact means exactly what it says: § 922. Unlawful acts ® It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to— (1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or (2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General. The term any person is quite unambiguous. The fact that parts used to assemble the "restricted" gun are not imported may mean that installing a US mag tube is OK but it won't cover installation of the Imported collapsible stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zodiac Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 That's the way I read it also. Good job on clearing up some questions for me. I'm getting my mag tube today. As far as the stock goes, I won't touch that, only because, even if you use it in a justifiable shoot, a lawyer will have a pretty easy job of taking everything you own, besides the leo's taking it to the next level! I don't want to be the test case$$$$$$! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teufel-hunden Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 While I doubt that chasing down magazine or stock installers is a top priority for ATF, I think that the law in fact means exactly what it says: and it says...... -- section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to— Sheesh! you guys had me spun up for a while, I was actaully thinking about NOT buying an M4 because of the potentiality of have an illegal gun- Sporting purposes.... how many "turkey specials" with pistol grips are on the market? As far as the mag tube only certain game birds in Alabama have a rounds in shotgun limit, as far as the stock goes I can't find any laws/regulations that would make it illegal. I have talked to a number of law enforcement types (federal/state/local) and they all tell me not to worry if the barrel and overall lengths meet the minimums. Of course I live in Alabama where it is legal to hunt deer with a spear:eek:.... gotta love us whacky southerners! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MENeelz Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 While I doubt that chasing down magazine or stock installers is a top priority for ATF, I think that the law in fact means exactly what it says: and it says...... -- section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to— Sheesh! you guys had me spun up for a while, I was actaully thinking about NOT buying an M4 because of the potentiality of have an illegal gun- Sporting purposes.... how many "turkey specials" with pistol grips are on the market? As far as the mag tube only certain game birds in Alabama have a rounds in shotgun limit, as far as the stock goes I can't find any laws/regulations that would make it illegal. I have talked to a number of law enforcement types (federal/state/local) and they all tell me not to worry if the barrel and overall lengths meet the minimums. Of course I live in Alabama where it is legal to hunt deer with a spear:eek:.... gotta love us whacky southerners! Well, I think like you do, but if you read the letter of the law, you find that only the Attorney General is authorized to make the determinaton of what is "suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes." If you do a search of this subject, you'll find lots of threads discussing it in great detail. The fact with this law as with any law is that until it's heard in the courts, nobody really knows what its limits are or what its meaning is. I personally don't want to be the one to fund the test case that defines it. Know what I'm sayin' ? Parts are lots cheaper than lawyers. I'm buying enough US made parts so that I am beyond any question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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