doublebarrel

Well, sometimes it is a bad shot or an extra tough bird, but even a well placed shot can fail to hit enough vital areas to give an immediate kill. I am convinced that steel makes it more likely. You have to use larger pellets which usually means fewer on target (not as many total pellets and a more open pattern). The pellets are larger, but don't penetrate as well, especially at distance. I went hunting a little over a week ago and used 3 inch #6 Hevi and some steel that I needed to use up. I got four birds, all on Hevi shot. No birds with steel. How much more expensive Hevi is depends on how many more shots you have to make with steel to get a bird. Now don’t get me wrong. Better shots than I can do fine with steel, but I still think they will bring down fewer. I am not the world's best shot, but I shot at a pair with one shell during that hunt and both folded their wings and hit the water. One dead and one not. Chances are the dead one was the one I aimed at and the other was just too close.

The Benelli web site says that the recoil reducer is only available for the 12 gauge. I don't know what size shells your wife will be shooting, but my 13-year-old daughter uses a youth model 20 ga Nova Pump, and she has shot as many as 92 field loads in an hour without a problem. She is only 5’1’’ and 105 lb. The M1 will also shoot a little softer than the Nova.

The choke manufacturer might be able to give you some guidance, but in general, I would agree with dblcluck. Remington's web sight mentions full chokes for buckshot. Mossberg's web site says that extra full turkey chokes are NOT recommended for buckshot. At the very least, if you are talking about lead, you would probably end up with deformed pellets that would fly wild and blow your pattern. With steel and Hevishot, I think you would eventually get damage (if not on the first shot), and the damage could be to the barrel, not just the choke. If you have a safe place to do it, pattern your gun with the buckshot load you want to use at the distance you expect to shoot starting with more open chokes and moving up until you get the pattern you need (and of course, don't go beyond the manufacture's recommendations for maximum choke constriction with buckshot. Might want to try calling Briley(http://www.briley.com). They could at least give you recommendations for their chokes.

Well, it really doesn't have to do with what I want to believe, it is just a complicated subject, and it is just physics and I can't change the physics (and boy are we way off subject-by the way, I can't have an opinion on the original question because I don't have a ported gun to tell you whether I like it or not-I have considered it on some of my big rifles). I have seriously considered porting a 12 gauge for my daughter (if I did/do, I would let Ballistic Specialties or Magnaport do it-I trust both of them). Before I let someone cut on an expensive gun barrel, I really wanted to find out more about it. Unfortunately, I have been able to find almost no subjective information on what the effects are. Here is what I have found so far: - It appears to reduce muzzle flip in big rifles and handguns by redirecting part of the gas, but in a lower pressure shotgun, it may not be noticeable (and yes, I said pressure-more about that at the bottom). -In most cases (maybe not all), it appears to increase noise. The only real number I have seen quoted is by 8 decibels (about 60%), but that would vary greatly with different guns. I was at a local gunsmith recently, and there was a guy in there with his 300 win mag complaining about how loud it was with his muzzle brake installed (almost unshootable). Noise is a big part of felt recoil. -In all cases, folks that sell porting services say it really works-a lot of others seem unsure or say that it doesn't. -Gun fit is very important in felt recoil (unfortunately most people ignore it). I wish I knew, because if it would reduce recoil and not increase noise, I would have it done for my daughter. All of this is easily measurable, and I would really like to run some experiments where I could measure true recoil, but then I would need to be able to afford both a ported and an unported barrel for the same gun and some other equipment (I can't believe a gun magazine has not done this-maybe I just haven't found it). Pressure. I think this is how it works. You have primary and secondary recoil. Primary recoil pushes back on the gun while the bullet (shot charge) is pushed out of the barrel. Higher pressure in the barrel will accelerate the bullet faster and push the gun back faster, increasing felt recoil. Secondary recoil would be when the bullet leaves the barrel, and you are suddenly holding on to a rocket as the gas leaves the end of the barrel. As the rocket (the gun you are holding) pushes the gas out (action), the reaction is that the rocket (the gun) moves forward (into your shoulder). The actual thrust (recoil force) you get depends on the mass of the gas being expelled (bigger powder charge=more gas mass) and how fast the gas escapes. The force that expels the gas is the pressure in the barrel. The higher the pressure, the faster the gas escapes and the higher the recoil, but it also depends on the mass of the gas pushed out. You would think that redirecting part of the thrust up would keep the barrel down and reduce reward thrust.

Don't know what Benelli's official stance is, but I used Hevi Shot in my Monte duck hunting Tuesday, and I will never use anything else again. The stuff is wonderful. Keep in mind it shoots even tighter than steel, so skeet and improved cylinder chokes are best. The chokes need to be OK for steel shot (I used an extended IC choke and took a big mallard from 50 yards with number 6 shot (three pellets in the breast) in a 3 inch shell). Remington, for one, uses extra thick shot cups to protect the barrel, but I would still stick with the "no choke tighter than modified" advice. Use 4 or 6 shot for ducks. The smaller shot and extended choke also make damage less likely.

Actually, the inertia system has nothing to do with pressure; gas operated guns like the 11-87 operate on pressure (But that is not strictly true because it is the expanding gas pushing the shot charge out of the barrel that moves the gun in the opposite direction that is required by the inertia system.) If it operated on pressure like a Remington 11-87, putting the butt of the gun up against a wall would not stop cycling, as Benelli says it does (and now I am getting ready to venture way out on a limb where I have no business). At some point, reducing recoil enough will cause cycling problems regardless of how you do it (the brick wall is the ultimate in recoil reduction). It all has to do with Newton's First and Third laws. The First is the law of inertia. An object at rest tends to stay at rest and an object in motion tends to stay in motion, thus, the inertia system. The bolt is at rest; you fire the gun; the gun moves reward; the bolt tries to stay at rest and locks tighter into the barrel as it moves forward relative to the barrel because it is staying in place; at some point the spring overcomes it and throws the bolt open, ejecting the shell and cocking the hammer. Newton's Third Law is that for every action (firing a shotgun shell), there is an equal and opposite reaction (recoil). Notice that it says equal. You can't make the recoil less. You can redirect it or stretch it out over more time so that there is less perceived recoil. I am NOT an expert in porting or recoil reduction. However, increased noise is a known problem with porting. Some is worse than others because the sound is directed more towards the shooter to a lesser or greater extent depending on how it is done (it is a real problem for those beside you in the duck blind). I have been to Ballistic Specialties' web site, and they look like a good outfit (and they are close to home). I was doing some research on recoil reduction to see what I can have done to a 12 gauge semiauto for my daughter (she only weighs 105 lb). In general what I found is that lengthening of the forcing cone reduces felt recoil (no one seems to dispute that), but opinions differed on how much porting helps. As far as the Super Sport goes, remember that Benelli can adjust the springs in a production gun that they port if the porting reduces recoil enough that it is necessary to get good cycling. [ 12-30-2004, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: doublebarrel ]

For the inertia system to work, the bolt has to try and stay in the same place while the rest of the gun moves rearward under recoil. Anything that reduces recoil, such as a lighter load, could reduce it to a point where the gun will not cycle. There are some people that are of the opinion that porting does not significantly reduce recoil, and if that is the case, it would not affect cycling, but it also wouldn't reduce recoil. I would think that the effect of porting could be easily determined experimentally, but that is a different subject. It will increase noise.

Just don't forget to put it back in. I have had a wildlife officer come around during dove season and make everyone shuck the shells out of their gun to check capacity. Better to have a rattle than the alternative.

I purchased a youth model for my daughter, and it has worked well so far.

Yep, normal.

My Monte forearm doesn't rattle either, but if the wood is tight, there is not much else it could be other than the plug. Why don't you try removing the plug to see if it goes away? If it does, you can try mudhen's suggestion to tighten it. If yours is loose, it might be easy to pull out for a quick check.

Birddog, I actually didn't know until last week when I was wandering around Mack's Prairie Wings that Environmetal makes shells (thought Remington had purchased exclusive rights). I have HeviShot #6 right now, but will try some Environmetal when they are gone. Should burn them in a couple of duck hunts I have scheduled the week after Christmas. This new shot reminds me of my first duck hunt years ago when I used #6 lead in a double 16 ga.

All of the Hevi Shot info you need is on the Remington web site. They have a .pdf pamphlet that gives number of pellets in a 40" circle at different chokes. I think Hevi shot will shoot at least as tight as steel, because the shells have buffer in them. Buffer tends to give you about one more level of tightness in "effective choke constriction". The site also has a 5 minute video with demonstrations. Essentially, even though 1 3/8 of Hevi shot has fewer pellets than 1 3/8 of steel, Hevi puts more hits on target. You also shouldn't need 3.5 inch shells if they even make them. Hevi is like lead or better. 3.5 inch shells were developed to address the inadequacies of steel.

The Montefeltro I purchased this year is standard grade, and it came with a hard case (inside a cardboard box).

I have mostly dealt with blued guns, and have never had rust problems. In general they are wiped after handling. Guns brought in from the cold after a hunt are allowed to warm to room temperature inside before cleaning. This allows any moisture that condenses on the cold gun to dry off in the relatively low indoor humidity of a heated home. After cleaning, they should be stored in some secure place other than the case you transport them in. A couple of years ago, my 870 Express (a painted gun) and I went fully under water in flooded timber. I emptied it out and finished my hunt. Back at the ranch, I stripped it and soaked the metal inside and out with Rem Oil. Then, wiped it down and never had rust. I have not had enouogh experience with my daughter's Nova yet to know how it will fare. I have not had to deal with salt spray, and salt with water will really tear up steel fast. In Zack Taylor's book on waterfowling, he talks about an experience he had (unfortunately with a 16 ga Parker) where he oiled his gun after a hunt on the ocean and the next day it was pitted. Apparently salt and moisture were trapped under the oil. Kind of makes sense because oil floats on water, salt will not dissolve in oil, and any salt crystals left in the oil would attract moisture and start to pit the metal. He started cleaning his guns with hot water after that (also used silicon sprays instead of oil). Even thinking about washing a gun in water except as a last resort bothers me. You would really have to dry and oil it quickly and well. At some point I am sure I will get caught in the rain with my Montefeltro, and then I will see how it reacts. [ 12-04-2004, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: doublebarrel ]