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treelogger

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Everything posted by treelogger

  1. Search this website and shotgunworld.com, and it will all become clear to you. In a nutshell, there are problems with an ATF rule that makes it hard for Benelli to import extensions from italy, so all Benelli extensions have been taken off the market. For details, you'll have to search yourself, don't have time to type it in. [ 09-01-2005, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: treelogger ]
  2. Please do not interpret my post as an endorsement of either Benelli or Remington, in particular not as it applies to make a "convertible barrel" gun (with both long clay/field and short tactical barrels sharing the same receiver). This seems to be non-trivial. I don't own either. There are fundamental differences between recoil- and gas-operated guns. Even more important than those is to find a gun that fits one well. I have heard horror stories about Benelli customer support - from multiple sources, some I highly trust. These horror stories are currently preventing me from even considering a Benelli. On the flipside, Benellis are clearly finely engineered, with many modern ideas designed in. I find it frustrating that I have only two bad choices: buying a gun with bad support, or one with inferior engineering.
  3. Not so quick young man. Anycase, you can buy the barrels for the M2 field as spare parts, and interchange them with the barrels on the M2 tactical. For example, the 28" barrel (non-camo) is part number 81250 and costs $380. Rumor has it (confirmed by gun shop) that spare barrels are rarely in stock in the US, and you have to wait for them to come from Italy, which tends to take 8 to 12 weeks. Call Benelli USA to find out whether they have the long barrels in stock. Warning: Some of the M2 tactical sights are mounted on the receiver! I think the ghost ring rear sights are on the receiver, while the rifle sights are on the short barrel (but I may have that backwards). And the sights are not easy to remove from the receiver. So if you start with a M2 tactical, make sure you get the configuration which can easily be changed into a field/clay gun without leaving half the sight on the receiver; if you start with a M2 field, make sure you get the tactical barrel that has both halves of the sight on it. Speaking of Remingtons: To some extent, the same problems exist. Imagine you start by buying an 11-87 target model with 28" barrel, for clay sports (with the receiver that can handle 3" shells). Where do you get the 18.5" barrel for it (I have not found anyone who sells the barrel for the 11-87P as a spare part), and are you sure it will fit the civilian 11-87 receiver? You have the same complications with the sights (11-87P ghost right sights are also on the receiver). Will the gas-operated mechanism still work reliably with the wrong barrel? How do you deal with the mag extensions (given that the new non-police 11-87 has a magazine that has tabs or points on the inside, which prevent adding a mag extension)? The mag extension problem means you should probably go the other way: start with the 11-87P with the 18.5" barrel, and add a long barrel to it; but does anyone know whether the long barrel will fit, and will it still cycle light clay loads reliably with the 28" barrel? [ 08-24-2005, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: treelogger ]
  4. Web search for Benelli 80155 or Benelli 80087. You will find them listed at several dealers (other than Cal's). I have not verified whether the dealers have them in stock, but at least some had an online stock check, and they seem to be available.
  5. It is not clear that a factory-new M2 tactical would come with the two-shot extension. A few weeks ago, I chatted with the factory rep for Benelli (at Reed's annual gun sales event in San Jose). He confirmed that Benelli is no longer importing any mag extensions (effect of a pretty silly BATF ruling, for which you can thank Pres. Bush Sr.). I asked what that meant for the guns that come with extensions from the factory, and he said that they will now ship without extensions. The catalog has not been updated yet to reflect that (I don't know about the web pages). Fortunately, there are still quite a few mag extensions in dealer stock, so you can buy one separately (I was considering this myself, but for now the horror stories I hear about Benelli customer service have convinced me to consider a Remington 1187 instead). Also, there are supposedly other manufacturers that make after-make extensions in the US, but the factory rep didn't know details. In any case, it is very likely that you would be able to buy a 4-shot extension, it might just be a bit of a hassle to have to locate it, and supply of Benelli-made extensions is likely to dry up, driving the prices up. About your question: I think what you propose is to stack two 2-shot extensions on top of each other, effectively having a 4-shot extension. I've never heard of anyone doing this - which doesn't mean its impossible. I wonder whether the net result would be sturdy and reliable. One problem would be that neither of the 2-shot extensions would come with a spring that's suitable for a 4-shot extension. If you get lucky the 2-shot spring has enough oompf for the longer mag. If not, after-market springs are easy to find.
  6. As far as I understand the situation (and I'm not a lawyer, I just read internet forums): The 922 stuff pertains to companies importing parts that can be used to make assault weapons, and is part on the 15-year old ban (decreed by Bush Sr.) on importing assault weapons, which preceeded the AWB. It is currently interpreted as saying that Benelli can not import magazine extensions from Italy, because you can use those to build an assault weapon (which would be a shotgun with both a pistol grip and a folding stock and a mag extension). It does not have consequences for the magazines that are already in the country. Nor does it have consequences on individuals using those magazines, as long as they don't built assault weapons with them. The only thing this means is that Benelli has stopped importing extensions. That's why people like me are thinking about buying the extension right now while dealers still have them in stock, even though I haven't bought a Benelli shotgun yet, matter-of-fact I'm not even sure I will buy a M2 (see post above for a discussion of the pro and con of M2 versus 1187).
  7. In black: part number 80087P is the 2-shot, 80155 is the 4-shot. If you want camo, you have to look for the part numbers yourself. Note that the SBE2 and M2 use the same extensions, and the ones for the M1 and SBE also fit - so much information on the web is a little confusing, they might be labelled extensions for the M1 or for the SBE. For further information (both on the import ban, and on mag extensions in general), check this forum, and also shotgunworld.com. I had started two threads there on a related set of questions. Here is some prices I found on the web for the 4-shot extension. None of these vendors have been verified by phone. There are probably many other vendors. http://www.dnrsports.com $62.50 http://www.lisc.net/p377.htm $59.50 http://www.bearams.com $75 There is also a lot of info available on the web (including this website) about the problems of future availability. Because of some bizarre BATF rule, Benelli can't (or doesn't want to) import the extensions any longer. So if you want one, you might want to act fast, before all the Benelli-made ones are sold. I have no idea how many more are in dealer stock. People with more experience can correct me, but I think it was introduced one or two years ago. The M2 tactical was officielly released this spring only. Usual obnoxious comment: Check the laws of your area about not turning your shotty into an assault weapon by mistake. Here's what little I know: Having more than 10 shots is totally out (federal ban). Other than that, you are OK, even with a pistol grip (as long as you stay away from collapsible stocks). Strangely, California doesn't seem to have tighter rules, so a pistol-grip tactical with a 4-shot extension seems to be legal. Note that the M2 is just about the only semi-auto shotty that can easily be converted from a tactical configuration (18.5" barrel, 4-shot extension, hang all the accessory junk you love on it) to a trap/skeet/hunting gun (28" barrel), and even to a slug gun with a rifled barrel. This makes it very appealing to me (little room in the gun safe, like to have exactly one gun and get good with it, instead of having to switch between many dissimilar guns, and like this I can tell my wife that I only bought one gun in the year, just a $2500 gun once you pay for all the extra barrels). Still, given the high initial cost of the M2 and in particular of add-on barrels, it might be nearly as cheap to get three separate cheaper guns. Another appealing feature of the M2 is the stock, which reportedly takes a lot of the sting out of recoil. On the negative side: gas-operated guns also take a lot of the sting out of recoil. And you can get other shotties for much cheaper than a Benelli. For example, three Remington 1100/1187 together might cost about the same as one M2 with three barrels, in particular since you can get used Remingtons. Also, Benelli has a reputation for bad customer service (most repairs need to be sent in to Benelli, parts are slow to get); some of the discussions on this forum show the tip of the iceberg. On the other hand, common guns (like Winchesters and Remingtons) can get fixed by many gunsmith, and spare parts are either stocked locally, or very fast to get. Furthermore, the Benelli is clearly the much better engineered-gun, compared to old-fashioned gas semi-autos. It has one issue: It is not designed to cycle light clay loads (official minimum seems to be 1 1/8 oz). Some people claim it works fine with target loads, others say it doesn't. The best reliability choice in semi-autos for light clay loads seem to be some of the Remingtons that are designed for it (in particular the 1100, can only handle 2 3/4 inch shells, or some 11-87 models that are designated as "target"). I know, this is a real dilemma, many pro and cons each way. I'll face that one next spring. [ 08-12-2005, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: treelogger ]
  8. I assume this is a new gun, bought at a store, not a used gun? Have you talked to the store where you bought it? At least the items missing in the box they should be able to deal with (after all, it is their responsability to check the box before giving it to you). On the bead that fell off, they might claim that it is covered by the manufacturers warranty, but even in that case, it behooves them to deal with the manufacturer for the warranty repair (although gun stores sometimes like to dump that task on the customer, fortunately that hasn't happened to me yet).
  9. OK, even though I'm in California, I wear completely normal and boring underwear. Hopefully not in a bunch. This much for the humor. And this is where things went wrong. A customer says that his hardware is defective, the gunsmith failed to confirm it. Sending it back as "within specs" was the wrong thing to do. The correct thing to do would have been to immediately contact the customer, and ask for more details. In such a situation, the fault does NOT lie with the customer (who is always right), but with the gunsmith, who failed to understand what was wrong (even if by his rules nothing is wrong, but that doesn't matter). Or simply swallow your pride, throw the customers barrel in the trash, and send him a new one, and send back a note saying "we couldn't figure out what is wrong with your barrel, but just in case, we replaced it anyhow". Wrong. If the user is not getting satisfaction out of the product, it is your responsability to understand why the customer is unhappy, and either make the customer happy, or give him an out (for example, offer to take the gun back and refund the money). Sending a part back as "within specs" is always the wrong answer. This is why people buy Leupold scopes - because of the customer service (and because the scopes are really good too). And it seems that people are happy to pay a considerable amount extra for this kind of service. The problem here is that Benelli makes extremely fine and well-engineered product, but fails in the customer service department. So unlike scopes, it is difficult to have both the finest shotgun possible, and the service that should go along with it. At least, Benelli is not alone in this regard; H&K for example is at least as bad, if not much worse. A few months ago I was talking to an extremely experienced shotgunner (the kind of person who has been going through 50K shells a year for 30 years), asking him in a nutshell what shotgun to buy for the trap & skeet league we have in the office. He told me to stay away at all cost from Benelli and Beretta, because of the problem with service: If the gun breaks during the league, you are out of luck for months, and in California you can't even buy a replacement gun immediately (because of the 10 day waiting period). He suggested either Browning or Remington, because they are both quality firearms, and they can be repaired within 2 or 3 days, and parts are available quickly (and don't have to come on the boat from Italy). He also said that if I insist on an italian B-gun, to at least stock the most important spare parts (in particular firing pins) myself, so a competent gunsmith can do repairs quickly. I am sorry to be so harsh, but that's what I've heard, and from a customer-service point of view, that's the way I see the world. Having been so harsh, let me add a little anecdote about clothing in a bunch. I work for an extremely large and quite formal computer corporation, which has a reputation for being picky about clothing. Today, this has stopped (I wear a T-shirt, jeans that show that I've been helping our neighbor fix his tractor, and sandals). But about 45 years ago, the older cousin of an old colleague of mine was sent home by his manager, and nearly fired. The offense he commited: he had forgotten to put on his sock garters, and his socks were slipping. What do we learn from it? Even in California, it is important to not get your clothing in a bunch!
  10. Actually, another question came up. Can a M2 (or M1) with the 18.5 inch tactical barrel even use the 4-shot extension, or will it stick out way in front of the barrel? I haven't seen any of the extensions in the flesh (yet), but it seems to me that the 2-shot extension is about 5" long, and the 4-shot extension is about 14" long (this was measured with a ruler in the Benelli catalog), while the M2 tactical with the 18.5" barrel seems to have 11" or less room underneath the barrel.
  11. Yes, I know that Benelli-made magazine extension tubes are "on hold", and I don't want to restart a discussion of that. Instead, I have a pretty simple question. What are the correct part numbers for the 2-shot and 4-shot magazine extension tubes for the M2? I think the SBE2 and the M2 use the same magazine extension tubes. I think the part numbers for the SBE/M1 might be 80087 and 80155, but I have this vague memory that extension tubes for the M1 do not fit on the M2. Information would be helpful. Also, if someone knows which dealer still has those in stock, preferably at good prices, that would be even more interesting.
  12. treelogger

    Benelli K2!

    OK, this brings up a serious question: What's the relationship between Benelli (motor bikes, in particular sport bikes with no valve springs) and Benelli (our favorite shotguns, styled like a race car)? I know that Benelli guns is today owned by the Beretta holding company; I presume Benelli bikes is not owned by Beretta. Are the two Benelli companies the offspring of a common ancestor corporation? Or is it just a coincidence, or a common italian name?
  13. Actually, I did read it. You carefully described the second (or more complicated) way of buying a gun as a non-resident, and getting it exported. And your description, probably rightly so, points out the difficulties in this approach. What I was trying to do was to fill in information about the first (simpler) way: Just come to the US, buy a gun, shoot a little bit with it, then pack it into your luggage and take it home. This doesn't work. I wanted to point out that this is not at all as simple as walking into Walmart or a high-end gunshop, and waking out 10 minutes later with a Benelli and a flat of shells, and drive over to the skeet range. One of the reasons I wanted to very explicitly dissuade the OP from trying this is that, coming from Europe, it is easy to think that the US is still the wild west (an impression that is caused partly by historical reasons, partly from the media coverage, partly because it is actually true that the US is considerably more relaxed and freer). But for example the fact that ammo can be bought at a drug store or a discounter might make people think that the US has no effective gun control whatsoever. The intent of my post was to complement your post - not ignore it.
  14. I think to buy a gun in the US, you have to be a citizen or a permanent resident. Being a citizen is not strictly necessary; I am not a citizen (but a permanent resident with a green card), and I have purchased several guns (some shotguns, some handguns). When doing so, you have to bring your permanent resident alien paperwork (also known as "green card"), enter your alien number into the form, and the gun shop makes a photocopy of the green card. You also have to demonstrate that you are a resident of the state you are buying the gun in and have been so for a certain amount of time; I think the acceptable forms of proof include 3 months worth of electrical bills, all with the correct name and address, or the paperwork (called "title") that you own a car or a residence (house, apartment) registered in the state. I don't think that a visitor on a tourist-visa or similar temporary visa can buy a gun in the US, but I'm not 100% sure.
  15. Please explain. To my eyes, the Comfortech and the standard stock look nearly identical. They should have the same fit. Why would you not want a stock that recoils less, other than the extra $135? There is another thing I haven't understood yet. Why does the Comfortech version not ship with the +2 mag extension??? Is there some technical reason for that?
  16. I have been thinking about the same thing, except with a semi-auto. My idea was to buy a M2 tactical (with the 18" barrel, but the regular Comfortech stock), and then buy the 28" barrel as an add-on. As the rifle-like sight is on the tactical barrel, the gun completely changes personality, right? Is there anything wrong with this idea? In the case of the M2, this saves a lot of money (the 2nd barrel is much cheaper than the whole second gun). In the case of the Nova, the cost situation might be different, two separate guns might cost nearly the same as one gun with two barrels. Actually, this brings up a question. The longest barrel one can get for the M2 is the 28" barrel. But for clay sports, most people now use 30" or longer barrels. For example, the Super Sport and Cordoba are both available with 30" barrels. Is there a 30" or longer barrel available from Benelli? Would a spare barrel for a Cordoba or Super Sport fit on a M2? [ 03-10-2005, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: treelogger ]
  17. Not quite 3+1. That is indeed true for the M2 Field. Also, it is true for the M2 tactical with the Comfortech stock. But the M2 tactical with the non-comforttech stocks (for example the pistol grip stocks) are 5+1. Looking at the picture on the website, it looks like it comes with the 2-round mag extension already on. So replacing the 2-round extension with the 4-round extension would make it 7+1, which would be quite nice - but maybe illegal. It isn't even clear to me whether the 5+1 configuration is legal, as "5 or higher" is what makes an import non-sporting shotgun fall under the silly rules. And as M1014 said: Those rules seem to be so insance that it following them would be a sure sign of paranoia.
  18. If I understand the comments in the "stop the telestock" thread correctly, then adding a mag extension to the M2 which brings the capacity to over 5 is illegal (unless you do the tax stamp thing), for a gun that is not a sporting gun (and a M2 tactical is not a sporting gun, I think). Is this analysis correct? If it is, there is no point buying mag extensions for the M2 tactical!
  19. Having found the web-page for the M2 tactical, it brings up a question. The M2 tactical with ComfortTech stock only has a 3-round magazine (the standard and pistol-grip versions have 5-round magazines). OK, this is weird, but let's accept it as a fact. Anybody got an explanation for this? But I can't find any magazine extensions for the M2 on the Benelli web site. Can I assume that the ones for the M1/SBE fit? And if yes, is there enough room on the M2 tactical with its short 18.5" barrel for the 4-round extension (making it 7+1 rounds), or is the 2-round extension the limit?
  20. I always thought shooting too much makes you deaf. In my case, it seems to have made me blind. Thanks, tucker301.
  21. The M2 tactical (with 18" barrel) is still not on the website. Maybe the updates aren't complete yet.
  22. That's very very strange. Of the major gun shops in the bay area (south and east of SF, not counting the north bay), Imbert & Smithers has the best reputation, with Sportmen's Supply a little behind them. Matter-of-fact, I'm quite bummed that they are such a long drive from me, otherwise I would frequent them more often. In particular, their gun smithing service is reputed to be the best among the gun-store generalists in the bay area. Reed's also has a very good reputation, but tends to have sky-high prices (Imbert&Smithers isn't exactly cheap either). Markley's is definitely the most friendly and homely gun store, but for most bay area residents it's a one-hour drive. Sportsmen's supply is the best combination between reputation, service, and reasonable prices - at least as far as I've heard. The story you're telling doesn't at all match what I've heard about Imbert&Smithers. Now, at some other stores (won't mention names), I could imagine this. A few days ago, I was talking to a very experienced (and old) trap/skeet shooter. He has about 75 shotguns at home (not counting rifles and handguns), and in his good days used to go through 20-30 thousand rounds shooting trap and skeet a year (he's now doing less now, as he is getting older). He just about screamed at me when I confessed that I've bought guns at Reed's and at Sportsmen's Supply, because in his world-view, Imbert&Smithers is the only place in the area worth going to (even though it's over an hour from his place). This is also very very strange. In California, we have a 10-day waiting period. Furthermore, the serial number of the gun is on the DROS form that's sent to the state. What you're saying would imply that the store had to contact the attorney general's office to undo the DROS form in some fashion. Didn't you inspect the gun before you bought it? That's usually what's done: You check out the gun, then you transact the purchase (meaning: fill out the DROS form, have all the paperwork checked, and give them money), at which point model and serial number of the gun are entered into the form, and sent to the attorney general. Lastly, 10 days later you pick it up. When did you notice the blank spot, before or after the 10 day waiting period? Since nearly all major gunstores are Benelli dealers, they can't be all that selective. Depending on where you live (Marin? Watsonville? Livermore?), the convenience of getting there could make a big difference. I would start at Imbert&Smithers for the peninsula, and at Sportsmen's Supply in Campbell for the south bay. For Milpitas / East San Jose, I would go to Reed's for best selection, but wait for their annual parking lot sale for reasonable prices, or shop elsewhere. If you are down south (Gilroy, Santa Cruz, southern San Jose), go over to Markley's in Watsonville. The place is run and staffed by friendly old overweight grandpas, all very knowledgeable, and huggable. Plus it is big, well-lit, and has a range right in the store. For the east bay, I cringe to recommend Trader Sports in San Leandro: they have a huge selection, but the place is a bit in a slum, and often frequented by gangsta-types. Two more wildcards: Kerley's on Stevens Creek (rumor has it that they less of a gun store, more of a hunting and outdoor store with a few guns, haven't been there in years). And Tabor's in San Bruno - too far north for me, never been there, but it is mentioned favorably occasionally by people who live in the city. Oh, and for inexpensive used guns, weird surplus ammo, and a general pile of junk with occasional gems at great prices in there: the Almaden Gun Exchange (they can also get new guns, but really specialize in second-hand stuff). I love to go there every few weeks, just to see whether a real good deal has walked in the door. I know nothing about gun stores north of the city, or in the central valley. Not my bailiwick. From another post: A bit of an attitude, I see. How about relaxing somewhat? In particular before going to the gun store. The people that work there tend to be armed. And they seem to treat people well, if you are nice to them. I just had a great experience with Sportsmen's Supply: Their distributor had screwed up (sending them a handgun with magazines that are illegal in California, for my special order H&K pistol), and they handled that competently, quickly, and friendly, while I was still in the store. And they made sure that the problem gets fixed without affecting me (other than having to wait an extra 10 minutes). So I'm one of the few civilians in California that has had the opportunity to fondle and touch an H&K pistol with a brand-new 12-round magazine - unfortunately, I had to give the clips back, and they'll be shipped back out of the state. Good luck finding the Nova you want! [ 02-16-2005, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: treelogger ]
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