BigHat
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Posts posted by BigHat
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Best answer to this question would be what works the best with your shotgun. Stole that advice from the MagPul shotgun course. You should pattern a number of brands and see what works best for your gun.
Bottom line is once this issue moves from the theoretical to the practical it's VERY important to know where all your pellets are likely to end up. At 25 yds, it's quite likely some brands will not impact a man-sized target with all the pellets when aiming center mass, and then you have a "pistol round or three" that will be impacting something else, hopefully not causing injury or death to an innocent party.
You ought to buy the MagPul videos and check them out. I think most cops, after taking that course, might do a slug swap for a 25 yard shot unless nothing else is around or behind the target, but of course, until you know what the pattern looks like, who can say what's best for you.
To address your 2nd post: You have a gas operated shotgun so low recoil buckshot shouldn't be an issue but all the more reason to sample a number of brands and both normal and low recoil. Personally, I'd start out with full loads, as they aren't bad and then see if others function solidly as you get more rounds through the gun and it breaks in fully.
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If you do a search you will find examples of letters written and responses received. They also have the best address info etc.
While not one of them, I have seen a number of members cite and post correspondence with the BATF since I joined.
Again, it's all in the archives so you can see for yourself, but SOME have noted that a ruling for one isn't necessarily a ruling for all. I personally don't see why, but again, search and read all about the debate.
This took 2 secs to find:
http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19539&highlight=BATF+letters
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To make a small addition to Leo's excellent post above, remember that ruling provided to one party by the ATF does not automatically apply to others, even though it probably isn't a huge deal.
While I haven't done it myself, many have solicited a ruling on the M4 (regarding the number of parts) and then used it as their basis for compliance. For example, I have a US made follower that isn't marked as such, so I keep the receipts / product descriptions all in one place. When I can get 922r compliant, I'll probably write them for a ruling so should it ever become an issue I have the requisite documentation to steer clear of trouble with the feds.
I have to think that showing enough interest to write the ATF and then save documentation of parts changes (especially small items like FC parts, etc) would not be deemed typical behavior for one with criminal intent.
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After a few here replied, I started to reseasrch more. I "THINK" the issue is that whenever you replace EITHER the magazine or the collapsable stock, you now have a shotgun that meets more than "one" of the evil features. In its original form, it only has a 5 round capacity, and a pistol grip (which is its only evil feature). When you increase the capacity OR change the buttstock, you now have 2 evil features. Once you are in that territory, you have at least 3 pieces to replace. Since the pistol grip and stock are 2 pieces, you need 4. There arent 4 pieces available currently to replace. If Im wrong someone let me know....
You sound like you're confusing these 992r rules with the expired assault weapons criteria. You remember -- bayonet lug, flash supp., pistol grip, etc. It's not the same thing. Plenty to read on this subject in addition to pretty clear guidance above. Research the parts that constitute an M4 as determined by the ATF. IF you start messing around with the configuration then you need to worry (if you care). If you pop on the collapsible stock and the mag tube AND then replace the follower and the fore-grip, you're still short of the required domestic content. A few solutions may or may not be in the offing.
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Well Tucker's advice is good and also saves some FFL hassles. Of course, if you're willing to take ownership and transfer it to him later it wouldn't be a big deal.
Gift certs aren't an exciting gift. I bet you don't like getting them either. Why not buy an M2 or M4 from a shop that will allow a no hassle exchange? Then he has something tangible to open. You can make it clear that your feelings won't be hurt if he'd like to opt for something else. This way you get the GGF kudos for actually going to the effort and research to get something nice. That would almost make me feel better than the present itself. What he eventually selects isn't that big a deal then.
I'm also a big fan and owner of Ed Brown and Wilson Combat pistols. I'm assuming we're talking 1911s in 45 ACP? Yes or no, he obviously leans toward top-shelf firearms so you're in the right place to solicit suggestions. He ever express interest in skeet, trap or anything else where all that gets "killed" is a clay pigeon? Just another option.
Good luck !! Please be sure to stop back and let us know how it all turned out.
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Who quit? I mustered advanced alliances. A leadership trait, not a failure. Now be gentle, they have lead times too.
Thanking the Lord was awesome. You are improving your people skills.
Bummer!! I misread your post!! You're still involved? Oh, I was hoping you wouldn't be around to....f it up as usual. Thinking maybe one of the big trigger makers were going to do this alone. Why would they partner with you? What do you bring to the deal other than an obvious requirement for psychotherapy and AA?
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Hi BigHat.
Your condolences are gratefully received
I currently own and shoot:
Benelli M1S90 12g
Mossberg 590 12g
Marlin cowboy action .357
Parker Hale bolt action 1300 7.62 / .308
Remington 597 VTR .22Lr
2 x webley Scott single shot bolt action .410
Shooting is a privilege, but it should also he a right over here and the way things are going I can see us losing everything
It's si ridiculous that our own Olympic pistol team MUST train overseas!
Nice collection no matter where one lives. Best wishes and good luck. Your system seems onerous but workable. Keep at it.
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If only we had people like you in the UK!
We miss out on so much amazing product and customer service over here, so let me congratulate you for being what we can only wish for here!
Anna.
Anna,
Our vexing 922® compliance issues are NOTHING compared to your basic day-to-day gun laws. My condolences. Glad to read that you've managed to get some nice shotguns, etc.
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SITREP;
I'd rather have what THEY will build, than any other concept, including mine. .
Oh, I can certainly second that.
Thank you Lord. More adults involved in this 922® issue for the M4 is just what we need.
Thanks to you too Kip,
Appreciate you quitting before failing. Same for you, but better for us. You are improving your customer service.
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Probably the first part I'd replace on a new M4 would be the charging handle. The OEM has to go. I like the 1/2 diameters that are offered.
I could live with the OEM charging handle A LOT longer than the bolt release. That said, the aftermarket charging handles are worth it. The Freedom Fighter Tactical Ti handle is on mine.
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A larger bolt release (pad) wasn't my first mod, but it should have been. See it in SD's pics above.
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That would have been a game changer at Gettysburg or Waterloo.
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Are you guys doing the magpuls doings the afg or afg2?
I use the AFG I had kicking around as I decided I didn't like it on the AR. Well, I liked it but like the Surefire better.
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5.7 is a great round for weight concerns. My wife carries a Five-Seven with a Surefire x400 on it. You'll likely never find it in the field though.
Stick with 22lr, 9mm, .223, 7.62 x 39, 45 acp, 38/357, 40 s&w, 308 and 30'06 and 12 gauge.
I'd recommend everyone watch the movie, "The Road" for a somewhat accurate portrayal of what the US will look like after Obama's second term.
I was just throwing the 5.7 option out as food for thought. Discussing the weight issue and ammo compatibility between a handgun and a carbine as things for others to ponder. Frankly, really don't know what I'd really carry out the door. Lots of options, but nothing would be "perfect."
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Great line of reasoning BigHat, the only thing I would also consider would be ammunition replenishment. 5.7 is not a common caliber and would much more difficult to source in the type scenario's this thread would be considering. 5.56 and 9mm would probably the easiest to find.
JM2C
That's a very good point. I guess when we all mentally review the scenario the OP posed we think a bit differently about the conditions one is facing. You're totally right about 5.7 ammo availability, but thinking getting ammo in a period of societal breakdown in any caliber would be very hard to do at best so my aim would be to carry the max amount reasonable.
I have a couple of bug out bags prepared and it's really amazing how much more the one will a 5" 1911 and 45 ACP ammo weighs compared to the 5.7 equipped bag which also has three times the ammo.
Again, the power of the 5.7 round is a beaten to death topic and I'm no great cheerleader for the round, but I shoot it very accurately and that's a confidence builder in itself. I wouldn't want to take 2 or 3 center mass, that's for sure, and I think it certainly would allow me to break contact with the "problem."
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Well, maybe a radical call, but as someone that's humped a lot of gear for days I think weight is very important too, especially when you think about all the other things you'd need to survive aside from ammo. So if I'm on the move:
FN PS90
FN FiveseveN
I can carry a ton of 5.7 ammo. Yea, it isn't as 338, but as the focus would obviously be protection, this gives me suppressive fire out to 200 yards and effective fire to over 100 yards. 50 rd mags in the carbine, 20 or 30 rds in the pistol and ammo useable in both weapons. 50 rd boxes of ammo are 25% the weight and size of a box of 45 ammo or less. Weapons themselves are polymer based and travel well too.
Glad this is an academic discussion.
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The pattern test photo shown above is Winchester "Law Enforcement Ammunition." 12ga, 2-3/4", 9 pellets, 00 Buckshot. RA12005 (I try to buy ammo by specific designation). The shell is red and marked Low Recoil.
The stock M4 three notch Modified choke was in the gun. This shotgun and choke had the nicest pattern at 15 yards of the three I shot that day, but both the M4+BB CR choke and my M590A1 (cylinder bore) were no worse than in the -1 area. At 25 yards I started betting missing pellets.
Limited test. One round per target at each range.
-- Chuck
Thanks for sharing.
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It is a lightweight light... and has good spill for a shotgun light. I don't love the idea of getting the weight way out on the end but I can drop the light on and off quickly with the mount.
I'd run a pressure switch to my thumb side of the forearm and be adding just a few oz and I'd get my tight forearm back on the gun.
What says the Benelli crowd?
Rezarf,
You running an 8 MOA dot on the RMR Dual Illum? How to you like it? Thinking about replacing my Burris FFII. Have one (8 MOA) on an FN FNP 45 tactical and like it. I guess I could try it myself, but as the FFII is set-up and I have an RMR on back order (battery 4 MOA) I was planning to use I thought I'd just wait. Your picture has me rethinking it though. Your thoughts would be appreciated.
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Rezarf,
A nice synopsis and I agree with your assessment. I had never really had much more than basic training in the tactical use of a shotgun, even while in the military. Much of it was new to me and from what others have told me, many LE types haven't gotten training at this level of sophistication.
As I have noted elsewhere, the tactical reloads and slug swap outs really highlight what's to like and not like on the M4. Of course, it mostly things to like as it's a great shotgun, but the bolt release button is too darn small and the videos might as well be an advertisement for the GG&G replacement pad.
One has to really think through if an over the top or underneath approach is best for reloads. I'd be interested in the thoughts of others, but I feel coming up from the bottom is the only way at this point, especially with a large replacement charging handle. Nothing to get in your way coming over the top on an 870, but the tiny release and the bolt handle size makes it problematic ( for me at this point anyway) with the Benelli.
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Just the info I am looking for, I'll be getting two of the 1/2 ti FFTs.
Thanks for the info!!!
Just got an email from them. Goggle dropped them for financial transactions -- big, bad, gun parts people. Setting up a new banking agreement. Anyway, might want to wait a day or two before you order. Suspect I'll get mine w/in a week though.
CORRECTION: New banking arrangement is up and running. Order away !!
Really good guys. They were great on my purchase of the 3/4 handle about 9 months ago.
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When comparing the 3/4 vs the 1/2 charging handle from FFT, are there any advantages to one over the other?
Can both be used with GG&G bolt release pad?
GG&G bolt release totally independent of the size of the charging handle. I was quite happy with the 3/4 unit for awhile. When I started to practice some drills swapping out the buckshot round for a slug I quickly discovered the GG&G pad release is MANDATORY for doing it quickly. I also discovered I was occasionally clipped my hand when using the 3/4 charging handle. Seriously considered going back to the stock handle, but just purchased this 1/2 Ti FFT handle and I think it will be just what I need.
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No I didn't know, looks as though I'll be placing my order soon. At 10 grams for Ti, it weighs 2 grams less than the original Benelli part.
Did you also see that FFT is manufacturing the Forearm/Forend compliant part, identical to the Benelli M4 ? (Made in USA printed on inside)
I just sent them an email asking when they expect availability. Awesome!
BTW, how the fit of the charging handle, nice & snugged or loose.
Thanks again BigHat!
My current 3/4" model is great and does not rotate. Eyeing that Ti 1/2" model and they claim it fits as well. Already using the Surefire forearm so I'll pass on the FFT model. Great for those seeking 922r compliance though.
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Saw it today too for the first time in awhile. Like that new 1/2 handle? Has that been out for awhile and I just missed it?
I like their effort to explain to those that don't hangout here how to stay 922r compliant if that's important to you.
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Maybe I’ll take your advice on that also; purchasing the GG&G Bolt Release Pad. Damn it!
As you said, “The M4 does attract Mods”. The setback I have is, I have two M4’s, so the expense is always doubled, and yes I know, well worth it! I must have gotten bit by that damn “Bug” again. I purchased the Carlson Breach Chokes two weeks ago for them, looks awesome!
By the way, I was just on the FFT website and they now make a 1/2" diameter charging handle. Looks ideal. Think I'll replace my 3/4" model. Just an FYI you you and others that may not be aware of it.
M4 Ammo Recommendations
in Benelli
Posted · Edited by BigHat
We all only know what we experience, but chokes and even slight differences in same spec chokes, barrels etc will effect different rounds. That's why pattern boards exist.
If you ever think this will become more than a recreational device (nothing wrong with that) it would pay to invest in three or four brands of shells and see what you have. In addition to pattern, point of impact very well could differ. Instructors re-establish zero with every change of brand.
Hate to keep mentioning that SEARCH button -- you don't like researching things yourself?
A few threads, but search for yourself for more:
http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22408&highlight=Patterns
http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24834&highlight=patterning\
http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22749&highlight=Patterns