jed1894
-
Posts
126 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by jed1894
-
-
Hey Remarkable, I guess an easier way to do this would be to list everything that could cause the carrier not to rise and start eliminating each one by one. I could add the recoil spring to the list, but not sure if that would keep the carrier from feeding the round. What do you think?
jed
-
Jed,
Well, just got back from the field...bad news: the new spring and follower did not work. Just to recap, I ordered the spring from gunsprings.com (25% more power). The spring is about a foot longer than the factory spring. It ejected the shells very good. The follower is a SS from Brownells (cost over $20).
So, it appears I have another problem. I took a couple photos of the jam and I'll post here if I can figure out how to do it.
The carrier latch and spring are on the way, but I'm not sure that's that problem either unless the carrier was bad from the factory because it's been doing this since new.
So, what do I have left?
The photo you show. Is this the photo of the final shell being kicked out of the magazine tube? The spring should be slamming the shell to the back of the elevator. You did not mention if during your experiment today that the final shell seems to be the issue still.
Here is a couple suggestions:
*Install your Carrier Latch when you get it.
* Have someone else shoot this gun
* Examine your trigger group and look for bends in the elevator or is something binding the elevator spring. (The Stoegger P350 elevator bends quite easily)
* Do you know anyone else with a M2. If you do ask to use thier trigger group in your gun
* Did you go thru your shells and make sure every shell you install in the magazine falls in and out of the chamber freely
* It sound like your elevator is nor raising for whatever reason on your final shot. This does not make sense the elevator performs well during your other shots. You may want to take the plug out and run a sequence of four shells.
Yes, it's the same problem as before (3rd shell stuck on carrier).
Had someone shoot it in the past when I was very frustrated with. Did the same thing.
No one close with another M2 to try trigger group.
I examined the shells the night before (based on your suggestion).
I tend to agree with you about the elevator. Something is keeping it from pushing the shell up into the chamber. But it is very odd that only happens on the last shell in the mag tube. The new mag spring is kicking the shells good.
How much oil is needed on the elevator section of the trigger group? I may not be oiling it enough.
Another question about the carrier latch and spring. How could the carrier latch stop the carrier from pushing the shell into the chamber?
thanks, jed
-
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/displayimage.php?album=21&pos=0
Maybe this will work....posted this over at another site.
jed
-
Mag spring. Inertia works to help cycle the gun just as well as it works to keep the shells from coming out of the magazine.
Not sure what you mean. With the new mag spring I installed, the shells are kicking out very good now. Something is keeping the carrier from kicking up the shell into the chamber.
jed
-
The attachment (picture) is not working for me. Anyone know how to post a pic?
jed
-
Jed,
That's great. Of course I can help you with your Carrier Latch. I'm sure the part you ordered from Brownell is the exact part number that your M2 came with. This part is a redesign since the M1. You mentioned you ordered a follower as well. The part was changed on the M2, i'm not so sure for the better. If you look at the Sure Cycle MAGAZINE kit, they have a Magazine Upgrade System for most Benelli 12 gauge shotguns. Includes a stainless steel magazine spring, red anodized aluminum follower and 3-shot plug.
This kit provide a Stainless Spring a Anodized follower and a anodized plug. The anodized parts are very precise and are very well made. I personally have these in my hunting guns primarily because I was going to purchase a new spring anyway and I really like the anodized plug.
When replacing the carrier latch you will need a fine drift punch to drive the carrier latch pin from the bottom through the top. When installing the new Latch and pin if you purchase one you will need to start the latch pin from the bottom driving the pin into position. This may require some a helper to hold the latch into position. Driving the pin to far into the receiver which will interfere with the bolt assembly movement.
Please let me know if you need some additional guidance.
Well, just got back from the field...bad news: the new spring and follower did not work. Just to recap, I ordered the spring from gunsprings.com (25% more power). The spring is about a foot longer than the factory spring. It ejected the shells very good. The follower is a SS from Brownells (cost over $20).
So, it appears I have another problem. I took a couple photos of the jam and I'll post here if I can figure out how to do it.
The carrier latch and spring are on the way, but I'm not sure that's that problem either unless the carrier was bad from the factory because it's been doing this since new.
So, what do I have left?
Stand by for the photographs....
jed
-
The more I think about your post, the more I think it has to be the mag spring. Because this gun has never jammed on the 2nd shot when 3 shells were loaded from the beginning. It has always been the 3rd shot (the last one in the magazine). If it were the carrier latch, recoil spring or something else, it would jam on the 2nd shot just as often, correct?
Jed,
I think you are making very good progress understanding the inertia system. Lets complete the cause & effect a bit further and break down your discovery. This will help you become a Benelli pro. Your discovery with the final shell is critical. Great insights to note these effects. The cause would be a possible weak spring rate which would then slow the entry of the final shell to the elevator which then raises your shell into the path of the bolt which then forces it into the chamber. I have replaced a few elevator springs as well in various SBE and M1's. The cleaning of the magazine tube is critical as well because you are changing the dynamic of the magazine spring because it would then be pushing against resistance of residue or gummed up lube.
This is a great forum to learn. I wish someone instructed me about the dynamics of the Benelli Inertia Recoil System. When I imported one of the first Montefeltro's to the US I never even received a manual. When manuals first came out nothing was mentioned about the Magazine or Recoil Spring. Fact is the first Montefeltro did not even have a recoil tube assembly nut to get access to the recoil spring. Benelli has come along way in making the gun maint. friendly.
I realy hope I'm helping you here and your gaining insights on the premier autoloading shotgun.
You are helping me very much. Thanks for insight. I got my new spring in yesterday, but I did not make it to field with all the football on TV. I will be there today with the new spring, new SS follower and a clean tube. I'll let you know tonight if that was the problem. If not, I have a carrier latch and spring on the way as well from Benelli. If you will, you can help with the installation.
thanks again.....jed
-
As I have said in another post, my 3rd round (one in the hole and 2 in the mag)--in other words the last round out of the tube--the shell will sometimes stop/jam on top of the carrier. It just sits there. I can lightly bump it or tap it from the bottom and it will then chamber. It will do the same thing if only one round is in the magazine.
So, something is keeping it from loading in the chamber. What would cause it not to load from the carrier? Would a weak mag spring do this? How? Would a weak/dirty recoil spring do this? How? Could it be the carrier latch? How?
Let's break down what you told us. Your first shell that you inserted into the magazine is the shell that is causing you the problem. That is a sure sign of a spring that is out of OEM tolerance or the magazine tube is dirty. Here is why: the spring rate when making application to the final shell in your loaded magazine will place the spring near it's lowest amount of force because the coils at that point are the most relaxed.
Take a look at the new Vinci - look how small the recoild spring is in that gun. You may think how can that little spring replace the recoild spring that is found in a SBE or M2. The reality is because when working with spring torsion rates the smaller the spring the easier it is to FIND and HOLD the exact tolerance that is required to operate, in the case the enertia recoild system.
A worm carrier latch will sometimes let more that one shells out of the magazine. The Carrier Latch on a M1 has been redesigned. I just replaced a Carrier latch on a clients 10 year old M1. In addition I replaced the magazine spring and follower with a Sure Cycle Magazine Kit. Also replaced in this gun was a Wolff 25% increase spring and a Wolff hammer spring. This package revived a ten year old M1 to like new condition.
The carrier latch is very simply to replace by driving the Carrier Latch pin from the bottom with a fine drift punch.
I'm going to say it again - the shell issue as described is a major cause of cycling issues. I have found this problem increasing. Lets repeat - if every shell you place in your gun does not fall into and out of the chamber area freely - you are changing a dynamic of the Benelli enertia recoil system.
I will be looking forward to the photo's.
The more I think about your post, the more I think it has to be the mag spring. Because this gun has never jammed on the 2nd shot when 3 shells were loaded from the beginning. It has always been the 3rd shot (the last one in the magazine). If it were the carrier latch, recoil spring or something else, it would jam on the 2nd shot just as often, correct?
jed
-
Thanks for the help.....my jam looks like the first picture in the last post. The carrier is down and shell is sitting on top.
The shell is also clear of the mag tube. In my case, a small tap is all that's needed to get it to chamber.
One other thing.....I received a new spring (Wolfe) and SS follower today in the mail. Unless something comes up, I'll be in the field today hunting. I'll post the results.
jed
-
I didn't want to highjack someone's thread by asking my questions. 'Remarkable' has already been very helpful, but I wanted to ask something very specific about my cycling issue. Just another note, I've tried the test 'Remarkable' suggested about putting a shell in the chamber and turning it upside down to see if it would fall out. Everything is okay there.
First of all, I am waiting on a new mag spring that may solve the problem. I am also waiting on a new carrier latch and spring from Benelli that may also solve the problem. However, I am trying to figure out what actually makes this gun cycle. Here's the question/my problem:
As I have said in another post, my 3rd round (one in the hole and 2 in the mag)--in other words the last round out of the tube--the shell will sometimes stop/jam on top of the carrier. It just sits there. I can lightly bump it or tap it from the bottom and it will then chamber. It will do the same thing if only one round is in the magazine.
So, something is keeping it from loading in the chamber. What would cause it not to load from the carrier? Would a weak mag spring do this? How? Would a weak/dirty recoil spring do this? How? Could it be the carrier latch? How?
Also, keep in mind. This is a newer gun. It has done this since new. It's now about 3 years old with about 7 flats of heavy load shells through it.
Thanks in advance.
jed
-
I would not usally interfere with someone's choice of home defense, but I've seen people (including children) killed because of the weapons in the residence. So, I thought I would add my comments.
If it were me I would think about two options:
Option 1:
I would not have an auto as home defense unless you're going to keep a round chambered at all times (might not be too safe) and you have used the gun extensively and can operate it in a very stressful situation, including the dark. Unless you've trained with it, you're going to get it taken from you by a serious burglary. You also have to keep them exceptionally clean to avoid any jamming issues since your life depends on it.
I would prefer a pump. The reason: they will not usally jam unless you jam it. In 25 years of police work, I've never had a pump jam (in action or at training). I carry them with an empty chamber (safety off--one less thing to worry about when I am about to shoot it) and I can easily racked one in the chamber when needed. You also get that 'oh crap, he's got a gun' reaction if someone is in your house when you rack a pump. A pump being racked gets attention. Shooting someone is not as easy as some people make it out to be. By racking a shotgun, you ,may not need to shoot someone. It is safer in case a child or burglary gets to it before you do. (they will have to figure out how to load it while you un-ass the area or stay and fight). They're also cheap. For the price of an extra Benelli barrel, you could by a used Nova and new 870. I would then go buy the field version M2.
Bottom line: If I'm shooting clay, birds, or quail, the auto loader is just fine. The occasionaly jam (and they will jam) is not a big deal. If my life (or my family's life) is in jeopardy, I want a pump. Ask any police officer the same question. There's a reason (at least in my area) that 90% of police agencies carry pumps instead of autos.
Option 2:
Buy the M2 tactical with short barrel. Then buy the M2 American for around $799 (maybe get one cheaper). The last time I priced a Benelli barrel it was around $500. For just a little more to get a complete 2nd gun.
Good luck.
jed
-
Thanks for the quick response. I want to make sure I understand you correctly:
You're saying in my situation, the chamber/shell could be the problem instead of a weak mag spring? I know I described my problem, but let me further explain. The only problem I have ever had is when the shell stops on top of the carrier. Never had a problem with one going in the chamber. Never had a problem with one ejecting.
One other thing: I've never replaced a carrier latch. Do you have instructions somewhere?
thanks, jed
-
Send me a photo and a better description of your issue. Also read my other posts. I think you will find some good understanding in that piece.
I just replaced a carrier latch on a M1 that was wore. This part was updated in the M2.
I tried to send you a PM, but the system said I needed to post 15 post before I could pm.
So, I thought I'd ask you a question about my M2 cycling problems.
I may have it worked out with the new parts on the way from Benelli and gunsprings.com, but they haven't arrived yet.
On my 3rd shot (when 3 are loaded), 3 out of every box will usually hang up on the carrier. The shell will back out of the tube and just rest on the carrier. I can slightly bump it and it will load.
Sounds like a weak mag spring and/or follower cap so I ordered both. I also have a carrier latch coming as well.
The gun has done this since new (3 years old)--Benelli told me it was a break-in issue and to shoot heavy loads for a while. Done that for 3 years.
What you think?
jed
-
What does the LS+plate change to the LOP? I have short arms and the 14" pad works great for me.
I just read your post form '06 about the pad. Sounds like there is no good alternative to the Benelli one yet.
It will shorten the LOP just a tad. Mayben 1/16 to 1/8 inch. Once on, mine fit perfectly (model 10401 for M2). If you're worried about stripping the holes, go ahead and get 4 or 5 of the adapter plates. Or you can put nuts on the back side of the adapter plates and not have to worry about it.
If I'm not mistaken, I think I got my plates straight from Benelli, but I can't remember. I may have gotton them from Limbsaver. Either way, they were free. They're easy to make as well. I made one out of of an old metal spacer from a Remington recoil pad.
However, I did not notice any recoil difference. This is just good if you want to make sure your factory pad doesn't fall out. I ended up putting the factory pad back in because of the added LOP.
jed
-
Are you sure that stretching with increase the spring tension? It will make it longer for sure but, not sure about the tension. If cleaning does not solve it, you have nothing to loose I guess but can't see it lasting but may help you through your hunt while waiting for the new spring. I still can't see all three guns needing a new spring all at once?
It helped on a 390 I was working on with a weak spring while I waited on my new one to arrive. I was having trouble with a weak spring so I took it out and stretched it out and put it back in. It worked fine. It may have lasted, but I took it out when my new one arrived. I wouldn't stretch one unless I had a new one coming.
jed
-
I agree with Tucker about starting a youth out with a pump. You'll probably save money on shells as well.
1. Wingmaster 20ga with Limbsaver or Kickeez for my 8 year old. Before you buy anything, you should pick one of these up and feel them. They are very nice.
2. If you're set on an auto----Beretta all the way. The 390 20 ga is sweet. My best friend started his 6 year old out on one (I wouldn't do that) with a cut down stock. The Monte 20 ga has a youth/woman stock that you can order (Approx $250), but the recoil is a little more than the 390.
Good luck. jed
-
Sounds like it can only be one or two things: dirty tube and components or a weak mag spring.
Make sure mag tube is very clean. Don't put any oil on the mag components after cleaning. You could order a new spring, but while you're waiting, and after you clean the tube and all parts, you could lengthen the old mag spring by stretching just a bit.
jed
-
Will the Nova bead work on an M2?
jed
-
I thought he was talking about the pump clicking, none of our Benelli autos have ever had the click, I was completely unaware of the issue (SBE, R1, Legacy) .
Do that many people actually have a clicking problem? If so that does seem like complete operator error.
I think the Benelli "click" is something of the past. Mine did it a few times (maybe 4 or 5) when new. I called Benelli (this was a couple years ago) and they acknowledged to me there were some complaints about the "click." The operator transferred me to a person who knew all about it and offered suggestions on how to make sure it wasn't operator error (mostly stuff on riding the bolt down, bumping the bolt by accident, and cleaning the gun properly). After we discussed my cleaning techniques, etc. , he offered to have me send the gun back if I wanted (I later did that on the jamming problem).
A friend of mine that also had the "click" problem suggested I get in front of my TV and pull and release the bolt a few hundred times. That must have worked--it has never clicked again. On the other hand, just as that problem was going on I started getting my jams. That's when I learned the gun had a break-in period. I then started shooting heavy loads (as directed in the manual).... that may cured the clicking problem. I don't know. It just stopped.
I think my gun is almost perfect now as long as I shoot heavy loads. One odd thing though, it has never, ever jammed while shooting Remington Shurshot Heavy Dove Loads. Go figure that one....
Another thing about the click: if you slightly, lightly, gently or otherwise pull back the bolt (after gun is locked and loaded) and then try to shoot it, it will sometimes click. Try it and you'll see.
One other thing about cleaning this gun that I discovered late in the game. Be sure you clean the magazine tube often. It appears to get just as dirty as the other parts. Just a little dirt, etc. on there will keep that shell from backing all the way out. Anyone having problems with the shell getting stuck just on top of the carrier has probably got a dirty magazine tube. Just a thought.
jed
-
I have a Benelli M1 Super 90 18" barrel, full length mag tube, and ghost ring sights... that has had at least 250 shells ranging from 3" magnum slugs to reduced recoil buck shot, to practice with low brass #8 bird shot, and that gun has never even thought about malfunctioning. Of course, my gun, like all of my firearms, is cleaned spotlessly after every use.
I don't even know what the "click" is... something tells me it might be the sound you hear when you squeeze the trigger on a bolt that isn't fully closed, but I always let the gun work the way it was designed to -- I let the bolt go and let the recoil spring do the job it was designed to do.
I love my Benelli and there isn't a shotgun out there I would trade it for. The Ferrari of shot guns.
I think you nailed it. My Benelli dealer said one problem they noted was some people would ride the bolt down instead of letting it slam. I know when I was shooting skeet with my friend (who has the SBE with click problem), he did not ride it down. Sometimes after the bolt locked into place, it would just click when he pulled the trigger. It did it with me as well. I'm sure it was an easy fix, he just didn't want to spend the time on it. Also, he had SBE I so the problem may have been totally fixed.
jed
-
I spoke with customer service again today, and they told me the gel pad has shipped out. I should have it soon. I took a couple of phone calls but I should be back in business this weekend.
Just curious if they told you anything (trick) to keep it from falling off again. Mine is not that snug....I usually take it off regularily to clean so I may have caused the problem. I got a limbsaver for it but I actually like the factory pad better.
jed
-
I work at Bass Pro Shops in Manteca, CA behind the gun counter so im constantly dealing with customers looking to buy a new shotgun. I've been duck hunting since I was 4 yrs old so I know the importance of having a reliable shotgun in the duck blind.
About a month or so ago the Benelli Rep for our area came into our store and I had a few questions that I needed answers for: For example "What is Benelli doing about their "Benelli Click" problem?" and "Why are the bolt handles falling out of the battery during shots?"
When I asked him these questions there were a good number of people behind the counter that were looking forward towards hearing his answers, but when he walked over to the gun cleaning area and came back with a bottle of Rem Oil he told me to carry this in my wader jacket that way if my SBE II starts to jam up on me and does not want to cycle correctly then all I'd need to do was spray my gun down to fix it.
I stopped him after he made that comment because if I am going to pay $1599 for a shotgun it better fire EVERY TIME and im sure as **** not going to pack Rem Oil with me.
That wasn't necessarly the smartest thing to say..........coming from a Benelli Rep
Beretta Xtrema 2, Winchester SX3, and the Browning Maxus are the three guns I would recommend
You know your gun better than we do....I have a good friend with a SBE with the "click" problem. He gave up and put it in the safe. I'm just glad to hear someone at Bass Pro knows something about guns, or at least has an interest in them. Keep up the good work.
I did the same thing as you when I caught the Benelli rep in the store where I bought my Benelli....well sort of (actually went to lunch together). Very nicely, I asked how many cases of heavy loads would I have to fire in my $1000 + gun before I could shoot lighter loads (I'm at about 20 cases/flats at this point--I lost count). He said send it back to Benelli and they would take a look at it. Told him already did that....they said shoot heavy loads. Changed subject after that. Told him I'd just heavy loads and hope for the best. It was obvious he did not have an answer...he was just the salesman or something.
Don't get me wrong, this is my go-to gun. It only jams about 3 out of every box now--getting better. I love the gun.....cleaning is a breeze. Just not what I expected for the price I paid.
By-the-way, I am a police officer and have been cleaning guns for 45 years now. I also own numerous other autos and don't seem to have a problem cleaning guns. None of them click or jam. I clean the gun after every use (maybe that's it--my gun is too clean to operate correctly). I also let the dealer clean just so no one would say "operator error" or I am not cleaning it properly (you hear that one anytime someone says my Benelli won't work). I hear this "you don't know how to clean your gun" excuse for this gun more than any other gun. I am convinced that cleaning has nothing to the Benelli problems. It's just that the Inertia system is a little sensitive. Blaming someone for not cleaning their gun is just an easy out, especially when cleaning a gun is such an easy task. If you get it remotely clean, at $1500, it should shoot.
jed
-
M2s have a tiny bead installing a bigger bead will drop your POI and the gun patterning high means you need to shoot under the bird slightly not choke looser. What shim do you have in your gun?
As of tonight, I have the "C" shim in. The "B" shim was in the gun but I was seeing too much rib. The "C" shim lowered it a little and now I see less rib. Maybe that will help.....I'll take it out in a few days and try it out.
jed
-
Yeah, I thought about trying that. Think I'll pick up a Hiviz or change out the bead and see how that works. thanks
M2 cycling issue
in Benelli
Posted
Not sure if you're addressing me, but if you are, I did send it back to Benelli 4 days after I bought it. I also sent it back the dealer 3 times. Benelli told me it needed breaking in and to shoot heavy loads, which I have been doing for 3 years. The dealer told me the same. So, I figure shooting heavy loads for 3 years has been enough break in for this gun. Now I want it fixed and it looks like I am going to have to fix it myself. I would just sell it, but I don't want to put this problem on someone else.
jed