ipguy

Rats! I'm busted! You figured me out. Yes, I've been a patent lawyer for 14 years. Not sure about JAX, but Baton Rouge ain't an IP mecca either. That's why I'm with a large firm, because we have clients all across the South. I don't do much litigation; mostly preparation and prosecution of apps, and lots of licensing work. It pays the bills and lets me buy good guns and ammo. If you want to talk shop, send me a private message. Happy to help (when I'm not chasing after the kids)!

Vaughn, you sound like a fellow lawyer! All good points. Good to see lawyers with combat shotguns. Makes me proud of my profession!

threeshot, Okay now read further down to the heading "Other federal laws affecting "assault weapons", and you will see the import restrictions. We have layers of laws, and although the AWB expired, we still have to live with the import bans. Note items 22 and 23 for the M1 and M3, respectively. Even with the AWB gone, modifying the M1 or M3 presents, in the very least, a potential legal issue that must be confidently addressed, hopefully by Benelli for the benefit of its customers.

I'd like to see you get a good answer from Benelli, because I had asked the same question with respect to the M4. My own conclusion (perhaps flawed) was that all these M1's, M3's and M4's are "surplus military firearms" under 925(d)(3). In fact, I AM a lawyer, but I'll be **** if any of this is cystal clear.

Ah ha! I may have answered my own question... Saw this thread when I searched: http://www.benelliusa.com/forums/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/438.html If I can actually rotate the front sling mount to the left, then the CQB sling is the best route. Hope this helps someone.

I see that the front sling mount on the M4 is directed downward, ostensibly for ambidextrous use with a sling, and that the rear sling mount on the collapsing stock is for "side mounting". Has anyone "slung" their M4/M1014? Have you found a side sling mount for the front? Does it matter? Worse case, I may just buy the CQB (Specter Gear) sling for the M1/M3 even though the mounts are 90 degrees apart. Open to suggestions; thanks in advance.

Class action lawsuit? Good luck with all that...

Yeah, that is really strange. And the M1014 was supposedly the "military" version (or least the name), so you would think that this version of that shotgun would be capable of a retrofit for the collapsible stock. Why in Heaven's name would the M1014 be any different than the M4 anyway??? What was ever the point in their unusual differences in manufacturing and assembly? I understand that the M1014 has the little flag on it, but come on... Something just dosen't seem right here.

Stevenb, if I were you, I'd lobby Benelli heavily for a new recoil tube as well, just so that you can get what you really wanted with the stock. If customer service at Benelli is really on top of things, I would think they'd accommodate you on that one. Very small price to pay for keeping a customer happy, as well as an excellent opportunity for Benelli to shine here.

Hunh! Well, how do you like that? So, it turns out that the info I had all along from Benelli was correct. Can only match a 70085 to a 11707 and get the collapsible feature of the stock. I hope those of you with M1014's can modify either your gun or the 70085 to make this collapse.

Ah ha! That makes sense. Maybe it's off the ATF radar in its currently imported configuration for non-LE use. And as long as it remains that way, modifications to it can never make it "identical" to a "prohibited shotgun." So, once the AWB went away, there were no more artificial barriers to assembling an M4 with all the features everyone really wants. But, the M1 and M3 were previously "tagged" by ATF, were they not? Even so, adding collapsible (not fixed or folding) stocks to those would still not result in the assembly of a firearm that was "identical" to the prohibited versions, because neither of those (M1 or M3) had M4-style collapsible stocks. If so, then perhaps it's just a marketing decision by Benelli not to provide them for the M1 and M3. I'm just guessing here...

Retail price is $180, so dealers are charging $179.99. Surprise! They may go as low as $160 but not for a while, I suppose.

My thought would be that either: (a) the M4 was never "not authorized" under 925(d)(3), and/or (b) the M4 is "generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes", or © the M4 is considered a "surplus military firearm" (and hence excluded from the list). My question is: has the M4 EVER been characterized by ATF as not particularly suited for sporting purposes? If not, then installation of a collapsible stock would not make it "identical" to a prohibited shotgun, because the M4 is not a prohibited shotgun. Sure, it's issued to military forces, but that's not conclusive of any lack of sporting purpose, especially if ATF has not identified this shotgun as being problematic. I just don't know where to look on the web (or the ATF site specifically) to find what determinations have ever been made by any federal agency with regard to the M4.

M1014, the 70085 was (last week) re-designated by Benelli to identify the true collapsible stock. I've had two stocking dealers call Benelli to confirm this very situation. But, you are right, their web site remains unclear as to all these new developments.

That appears to be a TacStar barrel shroud that sells for about $25 or less. It's black oxide steel, and it has a friction fit toward the back end where the barrel meets receiver, and the front end clamps down on the barrel with a couple of screws as shown in the pic. Looking into getting one myself. M1014, did you have any fit issues, such as where the forestock contacts the barrel and shroud? I'll bet that after shooting 25-30 rounds, that shroud would be mighty helpful.

BenelliGirl, Thank you very much for confirming the availability of the additional collapsible stock for the M4. I have ordered an M4, the collapsible stock, and the 2-rd mag extension. I realize that I am essentially asking for a legal opinion, but is there any additional info you can provide which specifically addresses the legal issues that were raised? Here is a link to a thread (which also has further informative links to other threads) which seems to draw the conclusion that mere installation of such a stock onto an M4 would be in violation of 18 USC 922®. AR15 link to M4 info If the conclusions at Benelli are that installation of these stocks by end users is legal, are such conclusions based on an interpretation of 922® and 925(d)(3), or are they based on a specific determination made by ATF with respect to "sporting purposes"? Many thanks again for any info you may have.

I realize that this issue is being touched on in other threads, but I would like to bring it to the forefront and see if we can get any official Benelli comments on it. From my telephone conversations with Benelli, it's my understanding that the Benelli M4 (Part No. 11707) has been designated as a "law enforcement" model. It includes a pistol grip and non-collapsible stock, but I am unclear whether the stock is the standard stock or the "skeletonized" version. During the AWB, that shotgun was available for civilian purchase, and it was in compliance (at that time) with the AWB, because it had a fixed magazine of less than 5 rounds and no collapsing stock. I also seem to recall that Benelli did not OFFER any collapsible stock to non-LE persons. Now that the AWB has expired, there is no legal limitation on the number of rounds in the magazine, and there is no legal restriction (under the expired AWB) against having a collapsible stock. In speaking with a person at Benelli, I was told that a true collapsible stock (Part No. 70085) is now (as of last week) being made available to ANYONE who wishes to add such a feature to their M4. In view of the Benelli shotguns being "imported" into the US, I understand that the 1989 import ban is now the primary legal impediment to certain modifications to Benelli shotguns, under the so-called "sporting purpose" tests employed by ATF. I also understand that such determinations are based largely upon the number of imported parts used on the gun. I believe that such provisions affected the M4, but also the M1 and the M3. When I mentioned on another board that such a collapsible stock was being made available by Benelli, it was met with much skepticism, and some called this "B.S." What I would like to know from Benelli is simply this: What changed? Here are some specific questions, in no particular order: (1) Is the M4 somehow exempt from what would otherwise be a legal restriction against that shotgun having a collapsible stock? In other words, are there enough US-made components, or some other set of circumstances that avoids such issues? OR (2) Is Benelli taking the position that it can sell a collapsible stock (by itself) to anyone, and it's entirely up to the end user to determine whether modified guns (such as the M4) which use that stock are legal? For example, all through the AWB, AR15 uppers with flash hiders, and collapsible stocks were sold all day long, but it was up to the end user not to install them on post-ban lower receivers. If it's the second situation, and there remain legal restrictions against possessing an M4 with a collapsible stock, then I will further research the issue so that I remain in compliance with whatever existing laws are in place. But, I would rather hear from Benelli that it was worked out some agreement with ATF as to whether the M4 can actually legally be modified with a collapsible stock. Thanks to Benelli for any light that can be shed on this important situation, as well as for any comments from other interested persons on this board. I just want to sleep better if I buy the M4 and add a collapsible stock.

I realize that this issue is being touched on in other threads, but I would like to bring it to the forefront and see if we can get any official Benelli comments on it. From my telephone conversations with Benelli, it's my understanding that the Benelli M4 (Part No. 11707) has been designated as a "law enforcement" model. It includes a pistol grip and non-collapsible stock, but I am unclear whether the stock is the standard stock or the "skeletonized" version. During the AWB, that shotgun was available for civilian purchase, and it was in compliance (at that time) with the AWB, because it had a fixed magazine of less than 5 rounds and no collapsing stock. I also seem to recall that Benelli did not OFFER any collapsible stock to non-LE persons. Now that the AWB has expired, there is no legal limitation on the number of rounds in the magazine, and there is no legal restriction (under the expired AWB) against having a collapsible stock. In speaking with a person at Benelli, I was told that a true collapsible stock (Part No. 70085) is now (as of last week) being made available to ANYONE who wishes to add such a feature to their M4. In view of the Benelli shotguns being "imported" into the US, I understand that the 1989 import ban is now the primary legal impediment to certain modifications to Benelli shotguns, under the so-called "sporting purpose" tests employed by ATF. I also understand that such determinations are based largely upon the number of imported parts used on the gun. I believe that such provisions affected the M4, but also the M1 and the M3. When I mentioned on another board that such a collapsible stock was being made available by Benelli, it was met with much skepticism, and some called this "B.S." What I would like to know from Benelli is simply this: What changed? Here are some specific questions, in no particular order: (1) Is the M4 somehow exempt from what would otherwise be a legal restriction against that shotgun having a collapsible stock? In other words, are there enough US-made components, or some other set of circumstances that avoids such issues? (2)Benelli taking the position that it can sell a collapsible stock by itself to anyone, and it's entirely up to the end user to determine whether modified guns using that are legal [ 09-20-2004, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: ipguy ]