Help please! Can't remove Urbino stock ...

[KiwiM4]

Would really appreciate some help with this.

 

I want to remove the Urbino stock from my M4 and put the factory non-pistolgrip stock back on.

 

I popped the butt pad off and started to unscrew the big screw inside. The one that looks like this:

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1043[/ATTACH]

Instead of the screw unscrewing from the end of the recoil spring tube and so freeing the Urbino stock, it instead undid the endcap that screws on to the end of the recoil spring tube (the screw for the stock screws into this cap). The stock came off and the recoil spring flew out and hit me in the face - nice

 

Now looks like this - the puddles are my tears of frustration:

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1041[/ATTACH]

 

The endcap from the end of the recoil spring tube would screw in here:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1042[/ATTACH]

 

But this endcap is still attached to the big screw inside the stock. And I can't get them separated 'cos they are way down deep inside the stock where I can't reach. When I turn the screw inside the stock, the end cap just spins.

Not impressed with the Urbino at this point.

 

What did I do wrong?

 

How do I get the endcap out of the stock?

 

Have literally spent hours trying to figure this out. Thanks for any thoughts ... hope my explanation of the problem makes sense.

 

[StrangerDanger]

Wow, what a train wreck. Did you use locktite on the screw when installing the Urbino? There is a snap ring sandwiched between the Urbino screw and the recoil tube cap as well. The snap ring is meant to retain the recoil tube cap from unscrewing by itself.

 

Without destroying the stock, I can't see how you'll get the recoil tube cap separated from the Urbino screw. What I would do is I would purchase the retaining cap and a new snap ring from Brownells.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=0/sid=916/schematicsdetail/M4

 

Part number 44 and 45.

 

Another option you could try is you could cry to Mesa Tactical and see if they'd at least swap the stock so you could sell it or whatever. You could try calling Benelli, they might send you the parts for free.

 

 

For the record, this is the second time I've heard of this happening. The other usser had used locktite on the retention screw.

[Bello]

have you tried a deepwell socket on the inside of the stock? im wondering if and when you put on the urbino you stripped the plastic on the opposite end and now you have two tight bolts stuck in between the plastic inside the stock try to heat it up a lil bit and turn it again and shoot a lil panther piss in there (i.e WD-40) or whatever lock breaker u have

[StrangerDanger]

The trouble is, the stock retention screw is threaded on the outside diameter. This is how it attaches to the recoil tube. So once it has unscrewed from the recoil tube, there isn't anything to stop it from spinning so you can unscrew the screw supplied by Mesa Tactical.

 

Even if you cut the stock open, it would be difficult to remove the screw without damaging the stock retainer. Since you'd need to clamp it in a vice to prevent movement. If this is a case of locktite being used, you would have to heat the screws with a heat gun to break the bond.

 

To reassemble, you're going to need the order of parts inside. Make sure the plunger is in place with the recoil spring seated around its shaft. Then you have to compress the recoil spring. There are some witness holes at the bottom of the recoil tube that you can insert a punch through to help retain the spring. Then screw the new stock retainer screw in. This piece is a PITA because no tool exists to fit the notches at the base. So you're left to halfass it with screw drivers or snap ring pliers. The snap ring then is inserted.

[KiwiM4]

Thanks StrangerDanger and Bello.

 

Yes, it is indeed a train wreck. Totally.

 

I have spent half the day on this and am getting nowhere, except for busted fingers, a couple of scratches and a lot of elevated blood pressure!

 

It is possible I used loctite on the Mesa screw - can't remember now but I could have.

 

Thanks for suggestion of trying a socket on it. Been going on it since you posted it up. Sprayed it with a WD-40 equivalent, heated it up, and went hard out pressing against it with various sized sockets while turning the Mesa screw. It unscrewed a tiny bit but have hit a point now where the level of force I can bring to bear with a socket is not enough to overcome the resistance in the threads.

 

And even worse, as you say SD, is that I can't even just put it back together witht he Urbino on it. Can't get the recoil spring back in when the stock retaining screw (part 45 - 'endcap') is inside the stock as there is too much tension in the spring to make it line up etc without being able to access the holes in the recoil tube (thanks for tip about pinning the spring).

 

So think you are right - the Urbino stock is a write-off unless Mesa helps me out, and will have to order new parts 44 and 45.

 

Will call Mesa and ask them about it. It's the first time I've ever tried to remove the Urbino, and not happy it is effectively unremoveable in this instance.

 

Still, always loved Mesa's products and have them on two other shotguns as well - and the LOP on the Urbino was great. Maybe it is my fault if I used loctite.

 

Thanks again guys. Will post up how I get on with Mesa - if this is a common issue with the Urbino, people need to be wary. I expect Mesa will be helpful - always had good service from them.

[HopetonBrown]

What kind of loc-tite did you use? Hopefully not red.

 

If you did indeed use loc-tite, which sounds like you did, I don't think it's fair to tell be to be "wary" of the Urbino.

[StrangerDanger]

I do not have an Urbino, but I have handled several of them manny times. Do the instructions tell you not to use locktite on this retention screw?

 

If red locktite was used, it is never coming apart since using heat isn't applicable in the location it is stuck in. You'd melt the stock before you broke the bond. Then you still don't have a good method to secure the stock retainer screw.

 

 

I'm not a fan of the Urbino attachment method. I felt it was a step backwards in terms of the tool-less design of the M4. The ergonomics need some refinement as well. Hopefully Mesa will consider a 2.0 version that will address the many outlined shortcomings.

 

This doesn't happen to the factory pistol grip or standard stock because the amount of force applied to the interal fixed screw is limited by the stock seating against the receiver. The trigger group then indexes the stock so it cannot unscrew. The collapsible stock doesn't even make use of this attachment point. The pistol grip portion is retained by the threaded portion of the recoil tube at the base of the receiver. The tail of the stock is retained by an internal locking mechanism on the grooves of the recoil tube.

 

Take a look at the factory pistol grip and standard stock's sling attachment. There is a reason that this is not removable. It is also the fixed screw point for the stock. Notice that the sling point is loose when the stock is removed from the weapon. Thiss was Benelli's method for establishing a screw off design inside the plastic stock. Their method eliminattes the possibility of accidently stripping a fasteners position inside a plastic stock.

 

If I was advising Mesa, I'd tell them to copy the ergonomics of the Benelli. Then copy the attachment method. Keeep the tool-lesss design. Surely this will increase price, but it would be worth it. Then offer several different thicknesses for their limb saver butt pad so users can tailor the LOP to their body specifically.

 

Consider looking into making use of the empty space within the buttstock. Be it something like the speed feed stock for additional ammo, or simply a storage area for small parts or cleaning items, it would be an improvement.

 

I'm not certain how useful the cheek riser has been. I imagine it would be like getting stocked in the face with heavy loads.

[HopetonBrown]

StrangerDanger, I agree with you that it was a step backwards for Mesa. This thing (the Urbino) was originally gonna be $300+ MSRP but from what I've read their gov't buyers balked at the high price.

 

To Mesa's defense, if you loc-tite'd the factory stock onto the gun it'd be a pain to get off, as well. Though not as much as the Mesa design. Can't idiot proof everything, though.

 

I guess they weighed cost vs. the benefits of field stripping without tools. It's an understandable sacrifice.

 

The manual states on page 6 "Hand-tightening with a screwdriver or 3/8" socket wrench is al (sic) that is normally required to secure the stock to the shotgun".

 

I appreciate the Mesa Stocks reduced length of pull, quality of construction in the USA, and reasonable price.

[StrangerDanger]

A 300 dollar stock for the Mossberg and Remington market wasn't going to fly. The aftermarket should always be an improvement over stock for the product to be received well. If you're forced to weigh pro's and con's, it won't be received well.

 

While you would likely end up in this situation if you locktited the factory stock into place, doing so would be much harder to do. You cannot physically reach the fixed position fastener inside the stock. So you'd have to apply it directly to the recoil tube's stock retainer screw. The question then becomes why? The factory pistol grip cannot unscrew with the trigger group essentially pinning it in its indexed position. However, on the Mesa stock, all it will take is the screw to shoot loose to allow the stock to begin moving on you. So the idea of applying locktite to it sounds reasonable and responsible. That is why I am curious to know if the instructions specifically say not to apply locktite.

 

Without knowing the intricacies of the M4, I would apply blue locktite to the screw as well.

 

To be clear, I'm not knocking the stock. If you need the shorter LOP and plan on using iron sights, it is the only way to go. The collapsible stock's middle position doesn't present a good cheek weld for using thee iron sights.

[heckler&kochp2000]

Sounds like drama !!!

[KiwiM4]

First - NEVER use loctite on the screw I guess.

 

It looks like there was loctite on the threads - but it would have been the blue non-permanent stuff as it's the only type I have.

 

I can remember the stock coming loose a while ago after shooting and I had to tighten it, looks like I put some blue loctite on it as well.

 

I think it was just sticky enough so that the initial 'break' when I torqued the screw to undo it instead started the endcap unscrewing - and after that, there was no way to recover it.

 

Secondly, spoke to Mesa. They have heard of this happening once before. I said I might have used blue loctite, and nevertheless, they were happy to replace the stock free of charge. Suggested I try to drill the screw out and if that didn't work, cut the stock and they will send me a replacement. Really great service.

 

Anyway, couldn't drill it (as it would just spin) so cut the stock up to free the endcap. Once I got it apart, examined the threads and there was a little loctite in them.

 

Have emailed Mesa to say I need a replacement, but will happily split the cost as I contributed to it by using the blue loctite. Have suggested that if they revamp the instructions, an express warning against use of loctite may be a good idea.

 

And finally, yes, like SD says, it would have been great if it fastened like the factory stocks - a very clever design. The Mesa screw can come loose as I know from personal experience, and yet I wouldn't want to tighten it too much or use loctite as I think the issue I had could then result. In future, when I go shooting I will have to take a screwdriver with me as won't rely on it staying tight.

 

Anyway, good on Mesa for being helpful and offering to replace. I will replace the endcap myself as although it still works, it got a bit beat-up and the outside threads aren't great.

 

Hope this helps someone else avoid the same problem with their Urbino.

 

Thanks again for the help - really appreciated.

 

PS - the stock is very solid - was hard work cutting it up ...

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1047[/ATTACH]

[HopetonBrown]

Have suggested that if they revamp the instructions, an express warning against use of loctite may be a good idea.

 

This is why your coffee cup says "Danger, contents of cup are hot!" and similar lawyer silliness.

 

 

StrangerDanger, I quoted the instructions in my previous post. It just suggests hand tightening. It does not implicitly say no loc-tite, super glue or epoxy.

[KiwiM4]

This is why your coffee cup says "Danger, contents of cup are hot!" and similar lawyer silliness.

 

This, taken together with your earlier comments, suggests that it is obviously foolish to use loctite on the screw.

 

Clearly I now know this with the benefit of hindsight, but disagree with any assertion that this should have been so readily apparent to the ordinary layperson that doing so was some type of 'silliness'.

 

The screw can loosen under normal shooting conditions as I have experienced (due to a cost-concious design approach) and it does not seem unreasonable to use non-permanent loctite.

 

And it is not like I didn't tighten it properly to begin with - at 6'5" and 280 pounds I can definitely wield a screwdriver.

 

I suspect you have more experience with the mechanical elements of firearms etc than I do given you could easily judge that loctite would be a bad idea etc, but for most people, loctiting a screw that comes loose is not close to 'silliness'.

 

Anyway, I am certainly not trying to blame this all on the product and totally accept that a good part of it is down to user error. And I still love the Urbino - not allowed to have the C-stock where I am so the Urbino was a very welcome product.

[StrangerDanger]

As the OP stated, the screw had been backing out on its own under recoil. It would be perfectly reasonable for the end user to then think that locktite would be needed in order to secure the stock. I would have done exactly the same thing.

 

I'm glad Mesa is taking care of you. Was the snap ring damaged during the removal? The snap ring was a pretty weak design on Benelli's part to prevent the end cap from backing out. They should have at least added a roll pin to retain the end cap.

[KiwiM4]

Was the snap ring damaged during the removal? The snap ring was a pretty weak design on Benelli's part to prevent the end cap from backing out. They should have at least added a roll pin to retain the end cap.

 

Good point - and I should have mentioned this - I'm not confident that the snap ring was still in place properly - which obviously wouldn't have helped.

 

And yes, nice handling by Mesa.

 

My GG&G bolt release pad arrived today. I decided I can't face any more hiccups at the moment so just dropped the whole lot into the Benelli agent and asked them to fit the pad, and replace the end cap and the ring.

[Fleagle]

The screw can loosen under normal shooting conditions as I have experienced (due to a cost-concious design approach) and it does not seem unreasonable to use non-permanent loctite.

 

I had trouble with the screw and stock working loose as well. After the second time, I used blue loctite to secure the screw.

 

Evidently that was a mistake (I haven't tried removing it yet), but it was the only way I could get the screw to stay secure.