Butch-M

Yeah ... in a Chernobel sort of way.

Fingerpainten on $1,500.00 guns? ... grandpa's rolling over in his grave. His 1908 Browning Hump Back is still killen bunnies & birds without no fingerpainten!!!

A synthetic O/U???? SACRILEGE!!!! Please ... Say it ain't so. Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio???

I check around for prices, then go to my local dealer and he's always managed to meet the best price I've found in catalogs or on the net. Makes my life a lot easier here in Jersey where the paperwork inflicted for buying a gun can seem like getting clearance to enter Zone 51 at Roswell. To some degree, there's also the "service" factor and the need to support your local guy to keep him in business. Obviously none of us want to pay more than we have to for anything, but I also take the approach "what's it worth to me" ... so if I pay $1,400.00 for my SBEII and feel it's worth it, thereafter I "leave the purchase behind." I do enough research that I don't get "hosed" on anything, but a few buck swing one way or the other doesn't mater. Other than guns ... I do MOST of my buying on line or out of catalogs. Prices are great, delivery is quick and painless, no state sales tax, (yet) and the mainstream outfits I deal with are safe and reputable. Over the last few years I've found these forums incredibly valuable for advice ... with participants flagging characteristics of some item which you'd never figure out without using it. JUST ASK!!! and a lot of great people will point "stuff" out to you. Previously, you had to rely on what the salesperson was telling you when researching and comparing products to make your purchase. I ALWAYS had this nagging question floating in the back of my head about "which product was he getting the biggest commission or highest profit margin on?" And ... was he steering me in that direction?

I have the 28" barrel on my gun. (Ballistically, there is no appreciable difference between the two) The logic behind the choice was that #1. the dealer said it is the barrel which he sells far and away the most. #2. I have an old pre-screw in chokes Browning with three barrels ... 26" IC, 28" Mod, 30" full. I used the gun a lot for many many years, so I'm completely familiar with all the barrels from Upland Game (26")to pass shooting (30") & Waterfowling over decoys (28"), with a little skeet & trap thrown in. The 26" feels short and fast, the 30" long and waterfowl-ie. The 28" sort of disappears, having no particular "feel" to me. I "THOUGHT" the 26" Benelli would feel too short for my intended purpose of waterfowl hunting. I was wrong. I know it's subjective, but the 28" Benelli barrel "feels" almost like my 30" Browning did ... long. I think Tucker or Mudhen once mentioned a reason in the Benelli SBEII's design as to why the barrel length is deceiving and actually "feels" longer than it is. (Integral barrel/receiver or something) It's not a big deal, kind of splitting hairs; but if I had it to do over, I'd get the 26" barrel. I "THINK" the 26" Benelli would feel more like your average 28" As I mentioned above, I took the SBEII out for grouse and it behaved outstanding even with the 28" barrel. I have a beloved Beretta O/U that is unequaled out in the field, so actually the only place for my Benelli is in the duck boat and turkey woods; and 28" is fine there. But ... my advice to anyone considering an SBEII or purchasing a smoothbore barrel for his SBEII slug gun (as I did) is: if at all possible try to get the gun in your hands before you choose your barrel length. It's NOT an 11-87 or 1100. If you like or want a long sight plane, you'll like the 28" barrel.

In 2004, I took the SBEII over Beretta because at the time, the top Beretta didn't have an available slug barrel ... and I wanted that added versatility in my choice of a waterfowl/turkey semi-auto. As far as quality goes, I think you could flip a coin as to which shotgun is superior. Looks ... to me the Benelli has a distinctive look and feel to it ... if it maters. On a lark I took the Benelli out grouse hunting and it handled & shot more like my O/U than any auto I've carried. Probably the biggest factor in purchasing a "big gun" is the ability to tame heavy 3" & 3-1/2" magnum loads and/or slugs. Wether you're "recoil conscious" or not ... less is ALWAYS better. So ... if you work through your list of likes & dislikes with both shotguns coming out equal ... I'd get the one with the less recoil. If I was buying today ... I'd have a tough time choosing. (Although I'd probably buy the Benelli)LOL

I hear you on the ammo testing help Ken. I've burned up hundreds of dollars worth of slugs looking for the "best." I'm afraid there's no quick and painless way around it because these guns pattern or group so individually. Probably because of some hoocus pokeus differences in barrel vibrations. The guys on this site helped me a lot when I was looking for "Turkey" chokes and turkey loads for my SBEII smoothbore barrel. I'm sure they saved me a ton of money and a pounded shoulder with their advice. I agree we as hunters have to be flexible and embracing of each other ... (crossbow hunting comes to mind) but we also have to try to do our part to educate each other in the realness of enlightened modern day ethics. We must limit the amount of "ammunition" we give the tree huggers, gun grabbers and "animal rights activists" who will take a maimed "Bambi" and parley it into more negative press and anti-gun & anti-hunting rhetoric. Here in Jersey we recently had the antis parading in front of the all too agenda serving NYC TV cameras; while dressed in orange tee shirts with the melodramatic "Wounded Bear Recovery Team" in big bold letters. I know hunting is a freedom lover's pastime and just about any written or unwritten guideline feels intrusive; but the harsh reality in today’s media driven, liberal press, and ludicrously unreal politically correctness ... is that my friend who is crippling deer is not only making me uncomfortable (and even angry) by MY (and most hunters) "ethical" standards ... but in the bigger picture they are actually endangering the sport which we love!!! A moral dilemma??? How do you (or I) handle this? Anyway ... I work pretty hard at being a decent rifleman, archer and wingshot for a few reasons; one of them being my personally felt obligation or the ethics towards my prey. I practice, ask a lot of questions, read a lot, and always look for improved equipment and techniques. I share whatever limited knowledge and experience I have acquired readily for the good (or vexation? LOL) of those around me who are interested. I take a great deal from these “Internet Forums” and to do my part, I try to contribute if I think I can. I'm also a product of the 1960's anti-establishment generation. A generation which abhorred government intrusion and loss and/or erosion of our freedoms. And, I live in the middle of the liberal media capital of the planet. Put it all together and you can probably imagine why "cripples and wounded" animals are a trigger subject for me. You guys obviously know how to use buckshot as it is supposed to be used. Your conditions sound different than in most areas of the country, and I’m working from what I’ve seen, read and heard being done with buckshot in the woods and fields ... not thick vegetation. Around here you MUST be sure of your target and absolutely sure of what’s behind it, and it’s fairly easy to do so. Elevated platforms for slugs so they shoot into the ground is extra safe. I personally think the dogs must add a lot to the hunt, as they do in the marshes and with upland game. Your volunteering your dogs for tracking & recovering other peoples downed game is admirable and definitely benefits both the hunter and hunting in general. There was no affront intended. Your discription of the situation explained Florida conditions well and was educational, thanks. Sorry if I made you feel defensive. Butch

I have a black SBEII which has seen it's share of rain & wet. While it hasn't rusted up, for some reason the "finish" hasn't inspired confidence in me. Little telltale signs here and there that it WANTS to rust. (under the slug barrel sights for instance) I'm not familiar with camo finishes; primarily because to me they take a $1,400.00 work of art and turn it into a kindergarten finger painting ... but I think I read a military study on camouflage where the face, back of your hands, and black silhouette of the firearm are the most visible and most likely to get you “noticed” at any distance. The study would indicate that you should cover or paint your face and hands ... and that a camo firearm would probably be an advantage. SO ... if the camo finish fights off rust better than the black and is sturdy; from a strictly functional standpoint; (personal esthetic preferences aside) it’s probably the better choice. Butch

Makes sense to me! As I said ... I can well envision buckshot being effective in the hands of a hunter who knows it limits and keeps within his own. I’m sure deer hunting over dogs triggers some controversy, but it does sound like it would be fun. As the saying goes ... “When in Rome, etc, etc.” While at first glance the safety theory sounds solid ... I wonder if you're better off (actually worse off... LOL)with one powerful projectile going exactly where you aim it, (be sure of your target and what’s behind it) or ten (20 or 30) lesser lead balls scattered all over God's half acre? I guess the lead balls lose energy fast enough to be the safer bet if somebody got nailed with one, but your odds of getting hit are greater. Unfortunately buckshot is to often relied upon by guys who don't want to pay their dues working with their shotgun to get 2" groups at 100 yards. They think it's a substitute for practice and good marksmanship. It's almost like that old turn of the century buffalo hunter mentality. It worked for grandpa, it worked for Pop, and I'm going to use it too. They never hear the stories of grandpa wounding or missing 5 deer for every one he killed. I've been trying to educate two friends who rely on the stuff about the ethical limits and range handicap of buckshot for years. One of them took a nice 10 pointer at a (sheepishly) claimed 80 yards by emptying his pump from his treestand into the deer standing in a field. Inspection revealed ONE lucky hit in the head with one pellet. Since then he's wounded three animals and not recovered them. To the point where even HE felt the pains of conscience and put the gun down for the season. As distraught as he was, it's like talking to a wall when I talk to them. They listen politely to all the ballistics & statistics, but I can see that nothing is sinking in. To them buckshot is like a lottery ticket is to a gambler ... a mysterious chance for an easy win. My argument isn’t against buckshot itself, it’s just that it’s so easy to and so often abused. You’re one of the only guys I’ve heard of who “patterned” his buckshot. The rifling in your barrel probably scraped, smashed and flattened those buckshot pellets into aerodynamic frisbees and sent them in every which direction. LOL In the very least it spun the shotcup into some aberrant spiral, loosing the pellets to all points. You should closely check the rifling in your barrel to make sure there’s no lead in the lands. To me; ethically; we should all know exactly where and how our shotguns, rifles, muzzleloaders, bows, arrows and loads shoot. Wether it’s birdshot, buckshot, slugs, 150gr boattails, maxiballs or carbon arrows. That takes time, effort, money and plenty of practice. Thanks for the hunting with hounds info. Good luck over them!

If I were to use "buckshot" for deer (and I wouldn't) I'd use the biggest capacity shell with the largest size pellets to try and carry as much energy into the deer as possible. Both Winchester & Remington make a 3-1/2" shell which holds 18 pellets of 00 and a 3" shell with 10 pellets of 000. My thought would be to use a 26" barrel for quick handling and ease of use in thick cover. A modified choke to keep the pattern tight for as long as possible without mashing the pellets together coming out of the barrel. BUT ... you’d really have to pattern test each choke and each shotgun shell brand & load to see how they perform at your anticipated maximum shooting range. (To define your limits of shooter and equipment) Now ... 00 is .33" in diameter and 000 is .36" in diameter. With the common 00; it's roughly equivalent to trying to kill a deer with a 32 caliber black powder handgun loaded with a round ball ... except the pistol would probably be MORE accurate. I'm guessing on pellet weight here, but starting at roughly 1200fps a .33" lead ball (which has the ballistic coefficient of a boat anchor) has about 240ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle and 185ft/lbs at 50 yards. If you go with the conventionally accepted figure of ethically killing a deer as 1000 ft/lbs ... you have to get at least 5 pellets into the VITALS of a deer at 25 yards to be assured of a clean kill. Personally, I don’t think that’s a high percentage situation in either the accuracy, nor the energy departments. Compare that to the 2400 ft/lbs of energy a modern sabot slug is STILL carrying ACCURATELY at 100 yards!!! Hence the reason that some states have banned buckshot from the deer woods ... too many wounded animals. All of which is why you almost never see any articles written about "buckshot" in any hunting magazine; while you see two or three in magazines addressing the advances in shotgun slug technology each year. With the obvious bias for slugs out of the way ... I know tradition plays a part in hunting, especially in some areas ... and traditions are often hard to discard. I personally think that buckshot can be used ethically and with good results in the hands of a disciplined and conscientious hunter who keeps his shots to close range (under 35 yards) and only shoots when he has a clear shot at the vitals. I know nothing about shooting deer in front of dogs, so I may wind up with my foot in my mouth; but it sounds like it could easily become a “spray and pray” situation with a slide action or semi-automatic shotgun loaded with buckshot ... unless the hunter has great self control, is not prone to “buck fever” and knows his gun, load and his own capabilities. Is there any reason why slugs are not a practical option in hunting with hounds??? Butch [ 12-13-2005, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Butch-M ]

Good Luck ... great choice either way.

SBEII

Say Bootster ... any idea how and why the Remingtons damaged Hastings barrels??? I'm just curious. I don't know anything about Hastings; other than they've been around forever. I would have thought they made a pretty decent barrel. A friend of mine is looking for a barrel for his ancient 870 pump, and Hastings WAS one of the options.

For your type of hunting the 28" would probably be the choice. The only real difference is the longer "sight plane" which tends to keep you swinging on the bird better. Ballistically, there's little or no difference in performance of the 26" or 28". The theory is that the shorter barrel handles a bit better in the thick stuff and for quick shots when jump shooting. To be honest, it's pretty much personal preference. Get to a gun shop if you can and see which length "feels" better to you; otherwise you won't really go wrong either way. As for the chokes ... depends on how far away the birds are flying ... and to some degree the "shot size & density or weight " PROBABLY ... improved cylinder or modified for ducks over decoys; (25 to 35 yards) and full choke for pass shooting at longer ranges. (anything over 35 yards.) I'd just ask whoever you're hunting with and take their advice. You can also go online to Winchester and/or Remington Ammunition and I think they have excellent "Guides for Shot Size" ... charts which give you recommended chokes and shotgun shells for all the different game. Nice gun by the way! Good Luck with it. Butch

I agree that the semi auto's are not 300 yard rifles ... unless you get lucky and come across a freak that shoots 1" at 200 yards. From casually reading the R1 posts over the last year or so, I've gotten the impression that it's not a particularly accurate rifle in the hands of the average shooter. I'd guess if the average Joe took the time to try out all the ammunition out there; individual R1's could be made to shoot pretty respectably though.

See a previous thread "Nova Slug Barrel Question" by Max4Gooser. I think he had the same issue. Butch

Better check to make sure of that shot size. Many states don't even allow "buckshot" any more because it's a notorious deer crippler. It's much better to use a single projectile; and in many states it's the only thing legal to shoot. Remington Buckhammers, and Federal "Truball" are excellent slugs. The outside ethical range of buckshot is usually considered to be 25 to 35 yards ... those slugs will increase your range to at least 75 yards.

Supposedly; sabot slugs through a smoothbore barrel do not separate properly because they lack spin. They tend to pitch & yaw ... or roll. So you definitely do NOT want to use sabots in a smoothbore because you're actually LOSING rather than gaining for the extra money you invest in expensive premium slugs.

Partition Golds are designed for deep penetration, which is why I use the Platinum Tips; which are designed more for faster expansion & transfer of energy. The solid component of the PG tend to drive it through. As it is; most modern sabot slugs are giving up a lot of their energy in the dirt behind the deer rather than IN the deer if you're not shooting at longer range. Aside from the drop in accuracy, those old lead slugs REALLY expanded in the animal. I like the ballistics on the PG ... but I worried about those close shots doing just what yours did; no expansion. Great post by the way.

The pressure out of a slug bearing shotgun shell is no different than any other high performance shotgun shell. Trust me, the manufacturers wouldn't be selling them if there was the SLIGHTEST chance they'd wreck a gun. Perhaps it's because Lightfield slugs just don't perform that well out of smoothbores that you got that spiel. Try the new Federal Truball ... it's getting great reviews and excellent groups for a smoothbore slug. Many guys are getting good results with Remington Buckhammer for smoothbores too.

Well, ... any friend of Tuckers is .... let me try to ... okay, the guy has to be good. WELCOME ... Butch

Well, my "crio" SBEII extra barrel went for around $400.00, so somebody doing a "switcharoo" with a relatively inexpensive generic barrel somewhere between the factory and your taking possession sounds possible.

I can imagine your disappointment and anger. You were probably all psyched that you had a super versatile setup with all your bases covered ... then wind up with a headache. If you used your credit card to make the purchase you may have an avenue to get your money back if the guy doesn't "do the right thing" for you. Credit card companies have procedures to follow, but will often credit your account if you were given incorrect, inferior, or broken merchandise.

My Benelli slug barrel has all the markings that your 26" barrels have. Why don't you approach your dealer and ask him what gives?

I was married to a "fresh off the boat" German woman ... so be careful what you wish for. LOL [ 11-24-2005, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Butch-M ]