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M3T or M4 (also for IPSC)


stoenggi
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Hi Folks

 

Except to my time on duty in the Swiss Army, I never used a pump-gun, so my experience is very little.

Now I'm going to buy a semi-automatic pump-gun. Due to high quality (I read several tests about pump guns and semi-automatic pump guns) I'm going with a Benelli but I can't decide if a M3 or M4 would be better for me. Unfortunately, I have no possibility to shoot the two weapons for a comparison :(

 

What will be the use/reason to buy the weapon?

1. Home-Defense. Therefore, I'll use non lethal ammunition (rubber shots). Live Side-Arm (SigSauer P220) is available.

2. Later on this or next year: It's highly possible that I'll beginn in competing in IPSC shooting.

3. Use in the active duty in the army under all conditions (CQC, Door-Opening, etc).

 

Now, my pros and cons:

 

M4 Pros:

-Collapseble Stock

-Ghost Sight

-Picantinny Rail for use with sights

-Accepts all kinds of ammunition size (3" and 2 ¾") w/o adjusting the whole gun (is that information really correct?)

-Additional parts such as IR Pointer and/or Flashlights aren't affecting the proper function of the weapon

-very robust

 

M4 Cons:

-Not able to repeat non lethal ammunition

-Tends to be fragile (read discussions here about broken parts)

 

Is the weapon that more fragile against remainder that a mechanical system? The Sig SG 550 has no problems concerning that topic, however it's not a pump gun.

 

M3T Pros:

-usable also as pump-gun for non-lethal ammunition

-shorter than the collapseble stock of the M4

-cheaper

 

M3T cons:

-No Picantinny Rail

-fragile to additinal parts (IR Pointer, Flashlight, Sights)

-Standard Sights (no Ghost Ring)

 

Last but not least a few questions:

-Are both types, the M3T and M4 ok for IPSC shootings? Is one better over the other in such competitions?

-Although the M4 is gas operated (ARGO), I assume that the bolt is moved in its closed position by a spring. Is there a possibility to change that spring versus a weaker one to allow using non leathal ammunition?

 

[ 04-10-2006, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: stoenggi ]

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My vote is for the M4. To be honest, I don't really see why you'd want a less-lethal round for home defence. If a BG broke into my house I'd want to be darn sure that whatever I shot would stop him and stop him fast.

 

As for the broken parts--most of that came about because of the 4-port barrels that had a different setup for their gas system. I don't think Benelli's making those anymore. The US army is adopting the M4 for their combat shotgun, so they put it through all sorts of tests and it passed. So because of that, I don't really think you could call the M4 'fragile.'

 

Anyway, you probably couldn't go wrong with either, but my vote is still for the M4.

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Ok, thank you for your thoughts.

 

I need to go with non lethal / less lethal ammunition for one reason: It's prohibited by law (in Switzerland) to shoot a BG as long as I wasn't threatened by my own life. But it's ok to hold of the BG until the Police arrives. Therefore I can use some violence -> less/non lethal ammunition is the way to go without the need of an infight (you never now if there is a nive in his pocket...).

As soon as the BG has a Gun or Knive in his hands, I could shoot him but even then it's much better to stop him with a few well placed rubber shots. IF he's really wearing a gun and he is resistant to the rubber shells, I can go with my backup weapon which is loaded with 9mm para.

 

Definitly confusing to me was that SWAT wasn't going with the M4. Unfortunately I coulnd't find any reason why they where not going with the M4 on the Internet but it opened my eyes for possible problems with the M4.

Does anybody here have the testing results from SWAT and the US Marines and Navy Seals why thy (don't) go with the M4? Would be very interessting to me.

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Personally if you can get an M3T I'd snatch it up. It suits all of your needs out of the box. You can use non-lethal rounds (thats actually the pumps intended use). You can also shoot regular rounds with the pump, however the non-lethal rounds don't (or have trouble) cycling semi autos.this gun was designed with LE in mind. Folding stock is easier to stow away, plus the pump feature. Both guns can be used for IPSC shooting. IPSC stipulates that the shotgun must be able to be fired from the shoulder position. As long as the M3T's stock is un-folded you meet this requirement. M3T all the way IMO. You listed as one of your pros for the M3T was it was cheaper. M4's aren't cheap but M3T's will cost just as much if not more.

 

[ 04-10-2006, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: TRG-42 ]

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@M1014

You are right... but here in Switzerland, such guns aren't that cheap an I'd like to with the right weapon...

 

@TRG-42

Are on the M3T also drilled holes which are allowing me mounting a Picantinny Rail for using electronic sights such as Trijicon or Aimpoint? Is the M3T only available with the standard (open rifle) sights or also with ghost sight (important when not using the electronic sights).

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Nope, the 3T is only avaliable with rifle sights. The rear sight serves as the catch for the folding stock. The standard stock M3 can be had with either rifle or ghost. I have both a 3T and a M4 and I would not eliminate one over the other but if forced to keep just one, I think, other than collector value, I would pick the M4

 

P.S. I have a 26inch barrel and a Looooong plug that I can install on my 3T for hunting purposes, you outa see the looks I get with the folding stock.

 

P.P.S. if you are recoil sensitive, you should go with the M4 FOR SURE. M3 is somewhat likley to hurt on slap shots or quick bird shots when you don't have time to get a solid hold.

 

[ 04-14-2006, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: jmikesteen ]

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I just saw that now the Nova and Super Nova are also available with the telescopic stock. Nice smile.gif

Sad that this issue is not also delivered for the M3T. However, I wan't go with rifle sights but I need a compact weapon for army duty. That's only possible with the M4. Maybe there will be a kind of a tunig kit in a few years (easier spring) which will also allow semi-autoamatic use with non lethal ammunition.

I assume that was the killing argument for SWAT concerning the M4. Does anybody know more about the fact that SWAT wan't go with the M4? What where the reasons for?

 

And thank your for the hint with the recoil. I don't think that I'll use the M4 for hunting but in CQC in the Army or even at IPSC shootings and I don't think that I'll get a solid hold all the time.

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jimikesteen that is friggin hilarious! A 26"er on a 3T. It must look out of place but I love it! It also goes to show how versatle the 3T (or M3) is. The M4 is a fine tactical shotgun, but thats all it is. The M3 serves multiple purposes. The M3T is just so cool cause its kind of like a well built S.P.A.S. And looks badazzz.

 

stoenggi in answer to your SWAT question, I'm not sure what your saying. I realize your in another country so thats probably the mix up. In America each state has there own police force, then most counties and cities have there own police force's as well, which are seperate entities from the state police. Within theses seperate county/city police forces some of them have SWAT teams. Theres no one SWAT team in America. There are many, and they all use there own choice of weaponry, training, etc. There are many paralell's and I'm sure there are SWAT teams whose shotgunners carry M4's. SWAT members have much more freedom in what weapon they want to use, this is universal. But you can't make a blanket statement that "SWAT didn't choose the M4" Which SWAT team? One in Orange County California, or one in Alachua County Florida? Hopefully I didn't confuse you more.

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@TRG-42

 

No, you didn't confuse me. I have allready knowed that there is not only one SWAT Team but county/city polices have their own SWAT Teams. But it was new to me that every SWAT Team is also evaluating their own weapons. I thought that there is a kind of a committee what is evaluating the Weapons for all SWAT Teams in the USA.

 

I read a text somwhere on the Internet where the M4 wasn't that successful in an evaluating test by a SWAT Team. Unfortunately, I can't remember or find the text again to post it here. But it made me cynical about the M4.

 

However, I can't have realised all my wishes in one gun so after your tips here I think I'll go for the M4 with the collapsible stock.

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