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Why the WSMs ????


nightforce
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can't figure out who they built a long action rifle that will handle 30-06 and 300 winmag BUT put those silly WSMs in it. My 300 winmag R1 is a very accurate rifle but the 270 WSM wont shoot any factory ammo under 2.5" groups. After much experimenting I worked up a load with A4350 and 150 GKs that will hold 1.5". More powder than my bolt 270 and no more velocity than Winchester Supremes 270 WSMs or my 270 wcf handloads. Just silly marketing. If they were smart it would come in 9.3x62 !

Edited by nightforce
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can't figure out who they built a long action rifle that will handle 30-06 and 300 winmag BUT put those silly WSMs in it. My 300 winmag R1 is a very accurate rifle but the 270 WSM wont shoot any factory ammo under 2.5" groups. After much experimenting I worked up a load with A4350 and 150 GKs that will hold 1.5". More powder than my bolt 270 and no more velocity than Winchester Supremes 270 WSMs or my 270 wcf handloads. Just silly marketing. If they were smart it would come in 9.3x62 !

 

I agree! I'm not a big fan of the WSM's to begin w/ but the whole concept is stupid in the R1. The only point of the WSM's is to get magnum performance in a short action. If the action is the same size and weight, the long action calibers make a lot more sense. I also wish the 9.3x62 was available here (they offer it in the European version). I would buy one if they did.

 

David

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WSM's not only lighten the action weight and shorten the stroke.

They are inherently more accurate than longer cases, because they provide a more uniformed powder burn from one shot to the next.

Used in the right kind of rifle, the WSM's are extremely accurate cartridges.

 

The action is not any lighter in the Benelli - it is the same as the full length cases. Bolt action rifles chambered in the WSM's have shorter/lighter actions.

 

Who cares if the stroke is shorter? How does that improve the performance in the Benelli where the action cycles automatically? The steep shoulder angles and rebated rim design of the WSM's cause far more feeding problems than any perceived benefit of the shorter stroke.

 

Short fat cases have been shown be able to produce marginally better accuracy in bench rest competition. That's fine in that rarified world where improvements in group size of a few hundredths of an inch are the difference between winning and losing. In the world of 7 pound hunting rifles w/ sporter barrels the idea that short fat case of the WSM would be more accurate than comparable long action case is laughable - certainly no real world testing supports that conclusion.

 

There's been a lot of testing done - this is typical of the results:

 

http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum5/184.html

 

 

Please show some test data that supports your statements that the WSM's are more inherently accurate.

 

Yes given the right rifle they are very accurate - so is a 30-06, 300 win mag and way to many other cartridges to mention.

 

David

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The action is not any lighter in the Benelli - it is the same as the full length cases. Bolt action rifles chambered in the WSM's have shorter/lighter actions.

 

 

WSM's were developed in and for bolt action guns. They weren't made for Benelli. Benelli made rifles for them.

 

In the rifles for which they were built, the shorter actions are more rigid and the powder burns more uniformly due to the shorter case length.

 

The Benelli R1 line of semi-automatic rifles have a number of accuracy-robbing flaws built into them. Some have good luck with them. many do not.

 

As a short to medium range big game rifle, they aren't bad.

 

They are not long-range rifles.

 

"The main argument in favor of any of the short magnums is their alleged greater efficiency due to their shorter powder column. The theory is that this shorter but wider powder column is more quickly and evenly ignited by the explosion of the primer, yielding more consistent pressure and somewhat improved accuracy compared to a standard length cartridge of the same capacity. More important, the short magnum cartridges work through short rifle actions, which saves about 1/2 inch of bolt throw as well as overall rifle length, and a few ounces of weight. (The latter is rather a mixed blessing when shooting a magnum cartridge.)"

 

http://www.chuckhawks.com/short_magnums.htm

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WSM's were developed in and for bolt action guns. They weren't made for Benelli. Benelli made rifles for them.

 

In the rifles for which they were built, the shorter actions are more rigid and the powder burns more uniformly due to the shorter case length.

 

The Benelli R1 line of semi-automatic rifles have a number of accuracy-robbing flaws built into them. Some have good luck with them. many do not.

 

As a short to medium range big game rifle, they aren't bad.

 

They are not long-range rifles.

 

"The main argument in favor of any of the short magnums is their alleged greater efficiency due to their shorter powder column. The theory is that this shorter but wider powder column is more quickly and evenly ignited by the explosion of the primer, yielding more consistent pressure and somewhat improved accuracy compared to a standard length cartridge of the same capacity. More important, the short magnum cartridges work through short rifle actions, which saves about 1/2 inch of bolt throw as well as overall rifle length, and a few ounces of weight. (The latter is rather a mixed blessing when shooting a magnum cartridge.)"

 

http://www.chuckhawks.com/short_magnums.htm

 

I've read that before, and note that Chuck states the improved accuracy as a theory - not a fact. There is no supporting data (nor does chuck claim that there is).

 

The OP was specifically asking why WSM's in the Benelli R1 - not why WSM's. There is no evidence of improved accuracy in the Benelli or any other platform and as such I agree w/ the OP - WSM's don't seem like a wise idea in the R1.

 

I have noticed that you often state that the Benelli has "design flaws" that cause inaccuracy - what design flaws are you referring to? My Benelli R1 is as accurate as any 7 pound hunting rifle I've ever owned and more accurate than quite a few. As has been the case w/ almost every rifle I've ever owned, accuracy has improved after sending a couple hundred rounds down the tube.

 

David

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The built-in flaws have been covered here at length before.

Search for the thread if you want to spend more time trying to debate some issues.

 

I'll stand by initial statement that the WSM cartridges have the potential to deliver better accuracy than do their longer sister cartridges.

 

Whether or not the Benelli rifle is built to capitalize on them is of no concern to me. I was responding to the title question.

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When my $310 Marlin XLC 270 wcf with a $350 Bushie coyote will plunk 5 135 smks in one hole at THE SAME velocity as factory 270 WSMs, I fail to see any validity to the WSM in any platform. It takes more powder to make the same fps, short actions are the biggest lie (in hunting rifles) ever foisted on the public and the R1 in 270 wcf would be as good and more accurate than that silly sawed off fat thing.

 

The Marlin and group (6 shots @100)

 

pix340796.jpg

 

270group.jpg

 

I just bought anothe 300 REAL winmag R1 and the 270 R1 is going down the road

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The short mags "claimed" accuracy has NEVER been proven in any match up rifle to rifle in a sporting rifle.

I have read a LOT of reviews of WSMs and SAUMs that are lucky to do 1.5".

Back up your opinion with some hard facts.

BTW my 270 WSM R1 is going down the road as soon as mt new 300 REAL Winchester Magnum R1 arrives.

The WSMs/SAUMs are as dumb as the "new" 30 Remington AR round that the original 30 Remington outperforms or the 6.8 AR round that the original 25 Remington will wup.

Short cartriges in long actions are just SILLY, rather like sleeving a 426 Hemi to 300 C.I. !

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Yup and I just bought a 300 WinMag (the real one) R1 and three guesses what going to happen to the 270 WSM R1 ? Hint: gunbroker.com after the wood, scope and mounts move to the 300.

 

When is Bennelli gonna get their heads outside and offer a real 270, 9.3x62 and 338 WinMag ?

 

As to the silly comment on not a long range rifle. Any rifle that will put 3 in 1" @100 is plenty long range enough for any ethical real hunter. Too many waana be snipers and we see the results BUT the wolves, yotes and bears appreciate the "I am a Carlos" crowd.

 

Let's start the stupid list: The WSMs, The SAUMS, The Ruger 300, 338,375,416 shorties, the 30TC, 480 Ruger, feel free to add more. NONE serve any purpose not met or exceeded by existing cartidges

It's the 5mm remington and 8mm RemMag all over again, only worse. Barnum had it right!

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Sorry but shooting at big game at 500 yards is iresponsible. They are too many variables to contend with. many "experts" will tell you the Pronghorn is the most unapproachable big game animal. Well, I and my hunting buddies & ladies have killed a great many (over 100). the LONGEST shot was 352 yards, most were killed under 150. WY/ID/MY Game and Fish will tell you most Elk are killed under 150 yards. My last (see below) I took was at 18 paces with an 1809 British Baker Military flintlock rifle. If you can HUNT, the 500 yard shot does not exist (except for varmints, by choice).

Now just to cap your comment, the R1 300 Winmag (the real one) that will shoot 1" at 100 yards would shoot (theoretically) 10" @1000 yards, not that there is one rifleman in 1000 that could do that even with my 300 H&H M70 Bull Gun (which will shoot 1/2 MOA), again the variables take over.

Don't know how many Antelope, Deer and Elk you have had to put down because some sniper wannabe shot off a leg, jaw or gut shot them or how many dead animals you have found in the spring after the wolves,bears or yotes ate them alive while snipper wannabe Louie was watching a NASCAR race back in where ever. "You cannot get too close, when big game hunting!"

 

09elk.jpg

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Shooting at 500 and beyond is no more irresponsible than shooting at 100 yards.

It's a matter of the abilities of the shooter and the equipment.

 

I know some guys who can't hit a standing whitetail broadside at 75 yards freehanded.

 

I know some others who can easily make a headshot on a groundhog at 400+.

 

Here's a picture from another board from the other day.

 

This bull was stalked for the better part of two days and was taken confidently at 682 yards by a skilled and knowledgeable shooter who was using quality equipment.

300 WM - 208 Grain AMAX

He went less than 50 yards before expiring.

 

A clean kill by a truly skilled hunter.

 

DSC03455.jpg

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For every one of these, there are a 1000 who have no business trying it. I wish I were that young, back then I could still climb the mountains to get close enough the make an ethical kill. Anyone who says they can hit a standing Elk EVERY time at 500+ yards has brown eyes from all the BS filling their heads.

All a 500 yard shot tells me is that the "hunter" lacked the ability or desire to ensure a clean kill by getting close.

You've all heard about the Antelope that can't be approached closer than 500 yards?

Try this on for size:

 

There is an old Elk hunter saying:"Don't shoot the yellow cow."

(she is very old)

Added to this should be don't shoot the toothless Antelope.

Spotted this boy and looking at small rack thought him to be a good young "eater". After a 500+ yard stalk, (NOTE STALK, AS IN HUNTING) dropped him at 84 yards with the Don Brown made Alexander Henry 452 repro percussion. (482 gr bullet, 90 gr 2F).

When looking at him, after he was down, he was no young eater, he was a very old buck with teeth to the gums, rounded off cutters and one cutter splitting away from the main horn. The biologist doubted he would have survived another winter here.

So in retrospect a "good deed" rather than taking a young prime breeder. Jerky is always welcome.

Antelope are the king of American game and unique to our country.

Some pics:

 

DSCN3456.jpg

 

 

dh1.jpg

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Hunting with antique and reproduction firearms that use old and unreliable ignition methods is unethical and irresponsible.

 

These technologies were replaced a century or more ago, because the necessity for better equipment fostered brilliant minds to come up with something better.

 

A "hunter" who ignores the strides made in ignition, ballistics, and optics and who instead chooses to continue to try to take animals at close range with primitive weapons is feeding an ego out of control.

The object is to kill the game cleanly and quickly.

Diminishing the odds for accomplishing that goal on purpose is completely unforgivable.

 

For every yahoo out there who wounds or spooks game with his bow and arrow or his black powder weapon, there are scores of others who have embraced and mastered modern equipment and technologies and who can consistently take game at distances beyond the old-schooler's comprehension.

 

It takes a great amount of skill, hours of practice, and an extraordinary knowledge of self and equipment to strike a target in excess of 500 yards.

 

Any old flunky can get the wind in his face and hide behind a fence or a hay bale and wait in ambush for an old and decrepit animal with dulled senses to walk by. :p

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Tucker I am going to assume you know nothing about bowhunting, flinters or percussion guns.

Only a complete idiot would equate primitive hunting with a lack of progress. Maybe you should watch Brian Ferguson shoot his longbow or ask all those dead Frenchies at Waterloo about the accuracy of a Baker rifle. Then you could move on the the War of Yankee Agression and learn something about long range percussion black powder shooting. You could even truck your butt to a 1000 yard BPCR match and see how worthless they are.

Also assume you have never competed in real rifle matches as 4 position with a National Match M-1.

You want to put a 6" gong out at 500 yards and let me shoot at it with this ? 50 bucks per shot, you'll go home on the bus. LOL ! (although I even doubt you know what it is)

BTW where in the USA do you hunt ? New Jersey ?

 

DSCN3454.jpg

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What I am trying to tell you, my thick-skulled new friend, is that your painting of all long-hunters as irresponsible and unskilled with your broad brush of ignorance is no different than me doing the same with those who choose to hone their skills in a different manner and pursue game with traditional or primitive weapons.

 

Good God, man. :rolleyes:

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The Baker was one of the most advanced weapons of its time.

The most advanced rifles of our time can obviously outperform it.

Yet, for some reason, you seem to be about 200 years behind the curve when it comes to accepting and appreciating modern technologies.

 

Get Mr. Ferguson and his longbow to take a shot at a groundhog's head at 400 yards. When he's done, I'll dial in my Savage 22-250 and finish the job for him.

 

Try this with your Baker rifle and get back to me.

 

http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/record-setting-sniper-kills-taliban-fighters-from-1-5-miles/19464537

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Oh well, no cure for this. Probably would rather have a Prius than a 427 side oiler Cobra too.

 

Gump, as usual was correct.

 

Nah, I just can't let this fool off this esay.

 

1. Lets see you do with your popgun what Brian does his with his long bow ... like shooting thrown asprin tablets out the air with no sights and so on.

2. Notice you ducked the bet and can't even I.D. the rifle, scope or caliber .... Mr Expert!

3. Woodchecks at 400 yards, heck, we shoot P-Dogs a lot farther than that. Of course we don't use popguns like the 22-250.

The little one is the 22-250, the big one pushes an 80 gr .224 at 3600 fps, and the rifle was made in 1935. Wanna try 600 with your popgun in the Wyo. winds ? Next test, Mr Expert .... I.D. the cartridge and rifle ... the scope is too easy. Wailiting and Laffin!

 

DSCN3037.jpg

 

DSCN3038.jpg

Edited by nightforce
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