KB Fab Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Has anyone spoke with Freedom Fighter's yet about this issue? Yes, I have spoken with Todd about this issue. More about that in a minute. I got mine yesterday and didn't have time to install it until just a few minutes ago. Here are my observations. My unit is slightly bowed on the bottom of each part like others have stated. If you hold the two halves together off the weapon, you will see a slight gap when you hold one side of the ends together. With that said, I also compared my OEM Benelli halves and while it isn't as pronounced, the same thing exists there. Now, when I installed the FFT forend, I noticed that is was a "bit" tighter than the OEM one. What I did to get mine on was to install the forward ends first into the forward retaining ring. Then I slid the entire assembly into the retaining clip on the front of the receiver. Low and behold, it was tight. I had to exert a little effort to get it to seat into the rear retaining clip. It did seat into the clip just fine though. Then I re-installed the mag cap and tightened it down snug. I did notice a slight gap between the forward retaining ring and the forend so I place the buttstock on my boot, took a piece of 2 x 4 and a dead blow hammer, and tapped down on the end of the barrel. I was able to tighten the mag cap a little more and the gap disappeared. I have absolutely no gap or movement in mine. In fact after getting it on "completely", there isn't any play anywhere and it feels rock solid. You can't even tell that the halves were bowed once it's properly installed. To me, it looks and feels identical to the OEM part. I would venture to guess that if you are experiencing any play at all, check to see if it is fully seated in the retaining rings, especially the forward one. Now, I spoke with Todd at FFT a couple of times between yesterday and today. Once to see where my box was because I was trying to track it and the number was wrong and once to let him know how my unit fit. It's my understanding that this bowing is most likely due to them using a different, and stronger, grade of plastic to make the part. The fact that it is bowed slightly, IMHO, is what's making it slightly more difficult to install. However, once installed properly, there shouldn't be any issues. Like I said about mine, it's perfect now that it's mounted on the weapon and fully seated into the retaining clips. I would encourage anyone who isn't satisfied to give them a call. I know for a fact that they want to know what's up and will take care of you if you are not happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKTM Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) " I would venture to guess that if you are experiencing any play at all, check to see if it is fully seated in the retaining rings, especially the forward one." The thing to watch out for is that that the barrel is fully seated in the receiver. I don't think anyone has yet reported any axial play in the handguards. If you watch the video closely , the movement is in the perpendicular to the retaining rings. Moreover the movement is not occurring at the retaining rings, the material is deflecting at the midpoint between the rings. It is the tongue and groove joint between the halves that is supposed to stop that motion. The tongue on the FFT right forarm half is just way to narrow for the mating wide groove on the left forarm half. I would think it would be easy enough to change the mold to widen the tongue. But given the other reports of forend curvature actually preventing the mounting of the forend, I suspect that the tongue was made small to allow for tolerance mismatches between the forend halves. Edited February 28, 2011 by TKTM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Fab Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 The thing to watch out for is that that the barrel is fully seated in the receiver. I know this and that's the case on my weapon. My FFT forearm fits perfect and I am happy to report I have no issues with mine. I suggest you contact FFT and they will happily assist you in any direction you want to go. Bye now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangerDanger Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Thanks KB. I've encountered the seating issue on OEM handguards. When my 11703 barrel was replaced by Benelli with the 11707 barrel, they had to replace the handguards as well. They're a semi custom fit to each weapon. The handguard hangers aren't exactly precision production. They're stamped steel loosely held in place via the magazine tube and a retainer ring. It seems like a pain in the ass product to produce so that it is functional with the entire range of production M4's out there. Several inline production revisions have changed interfacing components dimensions. Now that you fine tuned it, does it install easier? Or do you need the sledge each time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Fab Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Now that you fine tuned it, does it install easier? Or do you need the sledge each time? The answer is yes. It does seem easier as I ended up taking it down a couple more times to check just what you asked. There isn't any issue with getting it re-installed and it seriously fits very well on my weapon. If it didn't, I'd be on the horn asking for another go at it, you can be sure of that. I'm just glad to have the part and know that it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azmaxfan Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Using the birth of Christ to insult someone; I'll say a prayer for you. Please say it while you clean your assault rifle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangerDanger Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Good deal. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Fab Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Good deal. Thanks. No problem. You know, I actually did a funny thing. On one of my fit-ups, I inadvertently got an OEM and an FFT mixed up and installed one of each on my M4. They actually fit great with no gap or movement and the only reason I noticed was that the end profiles on the bottom are ever so slightly different. It took a little bit to actually notice but then I quickly made it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azmaxfan Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Yes, I have spoken with Todd about this issue. More about that in a minute. I got mine yesterday and didn't have time to install it until just a few minutes ago. Here are my observations. My unit is slightly bowed on the bottom of each part like others have stated. If you hold the two halves together off the weapon, you will see a slight gap when you hold one side of the ends together. With that said, I also compared my OEM Benelli halves and while it isn't as pronounced, the same thing exists there. Now, when I installed the FFT forend, I noticed that is was a "bit" tighter than the OEM one. What I did to get mine on was to install the forward ends first into the forward retaining ring. Then I slid the entire assembly into the retaining clip on the front of the receiver. Low and behold, it was tight. I had to exert a little effort to get it to seat into the rear retaining clip. It did seat into the clip just fine though. Then I re-installed the mag cap and tightened it down snug. I did notice a slight gap between the forward retaining ring and the forend so I place the buttstock on my boot, took a piece of 2 x 4 and a dead blow hammer, and tapped down on the end of the barrel. I was able to tighten the mag cap a little more and the gap disappeared. I have absolutely no gap or movement in mine. In fact after getting it on "completely", there isn't any play anywhere and it feels rock solid. You can't even tell that the halves were bowed once it's properly installed. To me, it looks and feels identical to the OEM part. I would venture to guess that if you are experiencing any play at all, check to see if it is fully seated in the retaining rings, especially the forward one. Now, I spoke with Todd at FFT a couple of times between yesterday and today. Once to see where my box was because I was trying to track it and the number was wrong and once to let him know how my unit fit. It's my understanding that this bowing is most likely due to them using a different, and stronger, grade of plastic to make the part. The fact that it is bowed slightly, IMHO, is what's making it slightly more difficult to install. However, once installed properly, there shouldn't be any issues. Like I said about mine, it's perfect now that it's mounted on the weapon and fully seated into the retaining clips. I would encourage anyone who isn't satisfied to give them a call. I know for a fact that they want to know what's up and will take care of you if you are not happy. Thank you for solving this slight, insignificant problem. Amazing how a little thought can find the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKTM Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 Please say it while you clean your assault rifle. Luke 22:36 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKTM Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 Here is a photo of the tongue and groove which are supposed to lock the forearm halves together. The groove is on the left; the tongue is on the right. Notice that the FFT groove is about twice as wide as the FFT tongue; there is about 1-2 millimeters of play between the two. It is that play which is allowing my FFT handguards to shift and screech as they move under my grip. Its the type of noise that would give away one's position at the worst possible time. (Unfortunately its not a turkey call) I wager the shifting and screeching will happen even more readily as the forearm gets oily, wet, or sweaty. It would be an interesting to test for those of you who have not yet noticed the squeak/shifting problem to place a little Rem-Oil along the bottom of the guards and see if handguards sing like mine when you grab them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heckler&kochp2000 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Luke 22:38 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AggiePhil Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I can't even tell what I'm looking at in that photo, TKTM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd308 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) Another thing to watch with these as I had to modify mine is that the forearm areas that are grooved to fit into the slots at the front/rear of the pieces were too long, so it was not allowing the barrel to fully seat into the receiver even if you put a good amount of pressure onto the barrel while turning the mag cap. In comparing my factory version to the FFT the FFT was overall about 1/16" longer than factory. A little dremel work fixed the issue but it's something to watch and make sure the barrel is fully seating. To me it wasn't a big deal to take a little material off them. FWIW on mine I also can get it to squeak/creak when squeezing the grip panels toward the top of the barrel, but I can't get it to do the same thing in "normal" manipulation of the forearm. On that note is there any reason the two halves could not be manufactured produced as a single piece? Edited February 28, 2011 by Todd308 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangerDanger Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Being two pieces allows it to conform to the barrel assembly closer than one would. Imagine how the installation would occur. If you want a one piece, the Surefire M80 is out there. It uses a rubberized top that allows the forend to stretch over the barrel assembly. However, ergonomics are not on par with the factory of the FFT stocks. I imagine two pieces are cheaper to produce as well. Much less complex of a mold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeoAtrox Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I edited the original post with a link to the video of the issue notice the sound the FFT forend makes and the deflection between the hand guard halves. That is interesting. I didn't test for that. I doubt it would be a problem with normal use (no thumb-over grip on this one) but I'm curious to know if mine does the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmarc Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I'd have to agree with TKTM, that would be annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKTM Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 I can't even tell what I'm looking at in that photo, TKTM. if you take your factory forend apart and lay the halves next to each other, that will give you the frame of reference you need. The factory forend has a groove and tongue joint that is properly sized for each half; that allows the halves to lock together in a way they can't in the FFT forend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Fab Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 So TKTM, did you contact FFT and either ask for a replacement or a refund? Inquiring minds you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKTM Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 So TKTM, did you contact FFT and either ask for a replacement or a refund? Inquiring minds you know. Do you have any inside knowledge on if and when they have a fix planned to start producing dimensionally correct ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeoAtrox Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Do you have any inside knowledge on if and when they have a fix planned to start producing dimensionally correct ones? Can't answer this one, but from the outside looking in, my guess is that they wouldn't be planning on re-tooling. The tooling is (really) expensive to begin with, and they committed to a retail price of $50 per unit. I don't know how much they had to spend on tooling to get the molds to where they are right now, but I think they might have to sell as many as a thousand of these things to break even (other expenses considered). That's a lofty goal for a small company. I hope I'm wrong and that they can make a profit sooner on it rather than later; but I reckon they won't be too eager to spend more resources on R&D on tooling unless they see a steady demand (sales) for the existing forearm to justify additional tooling and R&D costs. Then again, FFT obviously loves the Benelli M4. Like carriercomp, FFT seems to be a labor of love more than a business. So maybe profitibility of this one component isn't as important as providing this "service" to other Benelli M4 owners; particularly if FFT is profitable on other products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heckler&kochp2000 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 could the warping be from pulling them out of the mold to quickly ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I received mine today and noticed the warp, but the installed fit is perfect with no play or gaps whatsoever. I wonder if there are variations within the M4, old vs. new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Fab Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Do you have any inside knowledge on if and when they have a fix planned to start producing dimensionally correct ones? Why don't you just answer my question about whether you have contacted them about your problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKTM Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 I received mine today and noticed the warp, but the installed fit is perfect with no play or gaps whatsoever. I wonder if there are variations within the M4, old vs. new. Would you mind posting a picture of the tongue and groove on yours so we can see if they are sized to properly fit each other? FFT may have several molds in use. I did check mine to see if there were numbers indicating mold positions (ie 1-1, 2-1, 3, 4, etc) but did not find any. If they are using more than one mold then it might be possible that some sets have a better fit than others. A detail photo of a good fitting one would be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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