Just got my M4, it’s not black!

[Franklinexpress]

43 minutes ago, cas said:

So far I think that's what I like the least? The M4 is a fat dirty pig. lol I couldn't believe how dirty mine was inside in only 75 rounds? (mostly buck and slug)

I finally gave in and bought one this spring to get my own opinion on how much was steak, how much was sizzle. Separate the truth from the fanboy fappery if you will. lmao

I'm sure I'll be chased from the forum with torches and pitchforks, but thus far I'm just not seeing it.  It's a great gun, I guess, but not matching the price or the hype thus far.

But even if it was dirty, doesn’t mean it wouldn’t function for another 10k rounds. Did you open it because it was failing or out of curiosity?

[Ben elLes]

3 hours ago, cas said:

So far I think that's what I like the least? The M4 is a fat dirty pig. lol I couldn't believe how dirty mine was inside in only 75 rounds? (mostly buck and slug)

I finally gave in and bought one this spring to get my own opinion on how much was steak, how much was sizzle. Separate the truth from the fanboy fappery if you will. lmao

I'm sure I'll be chased from the forum with torches and pitchforks, but thus far I'm just not seeing it.  It's a great gun, I guess, but not matching the price or the hype thus far.

Slugs are fun but they leave a lot of led in the barrel that’s not easy to get out.  Perhaps just the cheaper soft slugs I used… I don’t know.  Gun runs regardless though.  

[ThisShouldDoTheJob]

3 hours ago, cas said:

I finally gave in and bought one this spring to get my own opinion on how much was steak, how much was sizzle. Separate the truth from the fanboy fappery if you will. lmao

I'm sure I'll be chased from the forum with torches and pitchforks, but thus far I'm just not seeing it. It's a great gun, I guess, but not matching the price or the hype thus far.

After I have the chance to shoot mine after it gets back from Benelli, my opinion may change, but so far I think I'm with you. With two dud Benelli guns in a row, coupled with others' questioning posts/topics, the need to upgrade the tiny bolt handle, the tiny bolt release button, the loading mechanism, and the forend if you just want handle it like a tool instead of a finicky little toy, etc, I'm starting to wonder, what the hell did I just spend $2K+ on???

My own forum name, ThisShouldDoTheJob, was a tribute to what was hyped up as a sure fire, over kill, over the top, rock solid gun. 

Oh well. If it shoots well, and nothing else falls off of it, I'll keep it. Hell, I already paid for all the other upgrades except the forend anywat. Those two little plastic pieces have got to go next. Have a good one.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by ThisShouldDoTheJob

[Unobtanium]

8 hours ago, ThisShouldDoTheJob said:

I bought a M4/1014 for its vaunted ARGO system, and I'm starting to think that's the only feature I'm going to like about this gun - if/when I eventually get a chance to shoot one. In other words, it better be a real smooth shooter or this $2K+ gun will be out of my collection real fast. Here's a summary of some recent posts/experiences (only a few of them are mine) with Benelli that have me wondering if this is the right brand for me:

> Franklinexpress's blue balls situation in this topic. 😆

>  I had to return a supposedly brand new H2O that was clearly a used and abused gun. That BS took 4 weeks.

> The magazine cap retaining spring and pin just fell out of my brand new M1014 so now I'm without that gun for another 3 - 4 weeks while it's getting repaired.

> Both front sights on my supposedly brand new H2O, and my brand new M1014 came canted/off center from the factory. This is common/acceptable condition on a $2K+ gun???

> The magazine release button is a joke. Thanks to RX Arms for his quick fix.

> The gun is hard to load, and even more awkward to unload.

> The jenky two-piece plastic forend is a joke. I've been around all sorts of firearms for 50 years. If I find putting those two pieces back together to be a finicky PITA in the comfort of my own home - and I've watched many others on YouTube struggle with this finicky PITA feature too - how the hell does a young kid in the military under fire/duress do it? How did this finicky PITA feature even make it onto a combat weapon???

> And, of course, the heat shield. Yeah, I know, it's not really needed, and real men never drop a burning hot firearm under fire/duress and then have to pick it up and burn themselves, but I'm still surprised some sort of heat shield is not on a combat weapon. When I want to reload fast, the last thing I want to be thinking about is how I have to hold this gun just right so I don't burn myself. The forend on the M4-A1 got that right.

OK. Rant over. I'm just ticked off right now after several weeks of delays, and hopefully some eventual range time with my M1014 will set my world right.

Serenity now! 😆

 

 

The plastic handguards are fine. You install the barrel tang, then you put the fronts HGs under the front retaining, nosing them in simultaneously at an angle and then bringing them parallel to barrel, then grip them together at the rear and insert the barrel fully. Ever take an OG m16s HG off? Much more of a pain. Also...why would you remove them under duress? There is literally nothing to address under there that is field fixable unless you want to hotswap a piston,  which isnt something troops carry at the individual soldier level I'd wager.

 

You don't reload it like a 3gun. You keep the gun and your eyes up. It wasn't made to be rolled inboard and quad loaded. You can do this, yes, but its not the design intent or the best practice on a 2 way range.

Admin full unload is cumbersome, but select slug drills are super slick, as are making safe to climb/cross etc by just ejecting and pocketing the round in the chamber, then putting it back in later.

 

The bolt release was what the military asked for. I agree its not optimal and Ive changed mine.

 

Your issue with the detent is unsat. I agree fully. Ive seen lots of 590a1 like this, but sad to see m1014. Canted FS is unsat as well, and sadly common across many brands of gauge. Ive sent one back for it, as well. Out of 12 or so, Ive had one that was unsat.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Unobtanium

[cas]

9 minutes ago, Unobtanium said:

You don't reload it like a 3gun.

Unless you're, you know, using it for 3 gun. 

[cas]

3 hours ago, Franklinexpress said:

But even if it was dirty, doesn’t mean it wouldn’t function for another 10k rounds. Did you open it because it was failing or out of curiosity?

Have you fired 10k rounds from yours without cleaning it? lol

I took it apart because I took it apart.

[Franklinexpress]

26 minutes ago, cas said:

Have you fired 10k rounds from yours without cleaning it? lol

I took it apart because I took it apart.

Haha, no I haven’t. 

[Unobtanium]

48 minutes ago, cas said:

Unless you're, you know, using it for 3 gun. 

Its a poor choice for 3G in my opinion. 

[Franklinexpress]

So back to the main topic, I guess The blue has forcefully grown on me, already attached the Aridus Industries QD-C so, there is no turning back now. Blue balls for life.

[cas]

Quote

Its a poor choice for 3G in my opinion. 

Mine as well, but there are those convinced it's the bestest at everything!

 As well as some duffers who just use it because it's what they have, of course, which is fine. 

I haven't done much shouldered weak hand loading with the M4, I'm sure in a "serious" situation it would be fine. In a match, doing it repeatedly all day, I can see it dragging on you. The M4's a little fat girl. lol

Loved loading and shooting at the same time, the game was more fun for me, before quad loading.

 

As for blue... I like it. Makes me think of painting one. I've been kicking around either painting an M2 yellow, or doing some crazy hydro dip on it. But a denim blue would look nice.

Edited August 21, 2022 by cas

[Unobtanium]

44 minutes ago, cas said:

Mine as well, but there are those convinced it's the bestest at everything!

 As well as some duffers who just use it because it's what they have, of course, which is fine. 

I haven't done much shouldered weak hand loading with the M4, I'm sure in a "serious" situation it would be fine. In a match, doing it repeatedly all day, I can see it dragging on you. The M4's a little fat girl. lol

Loved loading and shooting at the same time, the game was more fun for me, before quad loading.

 

As for blue... I like it. Makes me think of painting one. I've been kicking around either painting an M2 yellow, or doing some crazy hydro dip on it. But a denim blue would look nice.

The benelli m4 is more geared toward combat type things. Benelli makes a 3g focused weapon if one wants that. 

[ThisShouldDoTheJob]

3 hours ago, Unobtanium said:

The plastic handguards are fine. You install the barrel tang, then you put the fronts HGs under the front retaining, nosing them in simultaneously at an angle and then bringing them parallel to barrel, then grip them together at the rear and insert the barrel fully. Ever take an OG m16s HG off? Much more of a pain. Also...why would you remove them under duress? There is literally nothing to address under there that is field fixable unless you want to hotswap a piston,  which isnt something troops carry at the individual soldier level I'd wager.

You don't reload it like a 3gun. You keep the gun and your eyes up. It wasn't made to be rolled inboard and quad loaded. You can do this, yes, but its not the design intent or the best practice on a 2 way range.

Admin full unload is cumbersome, but select slug drills are super slick, as are making safe to climb/cross etc by just ejecting and pocketing the round in the chamber, then putting it back in later.

The bolt release was what the military asked for. I agree its not optimal and Ive changed mine.

Your issue with the detent is unsat. I agree fully. Ive seen lots of 590a1 like this, but sad to see m1014. Canted FS is unsat as well, and sadly common across many brands of gauge. Ive sent one back for it, as well. Out of 12 or so, Ive had one that was unsat.

Meh .... OK. Some fair points there. Plus, this helps ... I just did yet another, extensive Google, YouTube, Every-Gun-Website-Known-to-Man search and comparison on the competition and guess what? All roads lead back to the M4/1014 in the semi auto world. I'm sure things will work out fine once I get some shot down range, and if not, no big deal. Let's face it, it is just a luxury good after all, and there are worse things going on in the world. Plus, if it turns out that I'm just not a semi auto kind of guy, and this is just not the shotgun for me, there's a couple simple great looking coach guns out there that have just caught my eye. 🤔

[Unobtanium]

1 hour ago, ThisShouldDoTheJob said:

Meh .... OK. Some fair points there. Plus, this helps ... I just did yet another, extensive Google, YouTube, Every-Gun-Website-Known-to-Man search and comparison on the competition and guess what? All roads lead back to the M4/1014 in the semi auto world. I'm sure things will work out fine once I get some shot down range, and if not, no big deal. Let's face it, it is just a luxury good after all, and there are worse things going on in the world. Plus, if it turns out that I'm just not a semi auto kind of guy, and this is just not the shotgun for me, there's a couple simple great looking coach guns out there that have just caught my eye. 🤔

The m4 is a combat shotgun. If you want a competition gun, the m2 and 1301 are currently the two to beat.

[cas]

10 hours ago, Unobtanium said:

The benelli m4 is more geared toward combat type things.

98.5% of which are purchased by people who will not be using them in combat type things. Which is was kind of my point. lol And that's fine.  I have no issues with anyone buying whatever they want, for what ever reason, or no reason at all. But the signal to noise ratio on the M4 is kind of high. 

 

[Unobtanium]

1 minute ago, cas said:

98.5% of which are purchased by people who will not be using them in combat type things. Which is was kind of my point. lol And that's fine.  I have no issues with anyone buying whatever they want, for what ever reason, or no reason at all. But the signal to noise ratio on the M4 is kind of high. 

 

I've found the M4 to be extremely robust and reliable. The manual of arms may be different, but it is also very good for its intended purpose.

[cas]

I just grabbed mine to take a crappy photo for another thread and I said what I always say, "damn this thing is heavy". lol

That's one thing I always hear people say, how soft it shoots compared to the other Benelli's "because of the Argo system." I often wonder how much of that is really due to being a gas gun (though not a traditional one) and how much of it is weight? My M4 is close to two pounds heavier than a similarly outfitted M2 I have. I need to put two pounds of lead in the stock and shoot them side by side.

[BamBam]

If the cost of the Benelli M4 was cut in half and cost $1,000 vs. $2,000..it wouldn’t matter..people would still; compare, analyze, criticize, complain about how it could be improved upon for shooting; 3-gun, competition, clays/trap/skeet and hunting purposes. Of course, the intended purpose the M4 was built for had nothing to do whatsoever with any of those markets..because it was purpose built as a trench gun, now called a combat shotgun that fulfilled all the requirements requested by the U.S. military/marines. Never understand how people constantly compare apples-to-oranges in this manner..precisely why there are never any comparisons or criticisms made for taking 3-gun shotguns and issuing to soldiers for war.

[cas]

Mostly for shooting doors, no?

[Franklinexpress]

35 minutes ago, cas said:

Mostly for shooting doors, no?

I was in Iraq in 05, it was used for more than just doors.

[Unobtanium]

1 hour ago, cas said:

Mostly for shooting doors, no?

No, it kindof sucks for that. Doors are best done with a pistol grip type gauge like this:

 

Breach the door, roll out of the stack, sling the gauge (no live round in the chamber is one very dominant school of thought here, because shotguns are not drop safe, and when sling, those safeties  often will get toggled on gear, and so forth, so no live round. Pop the lock, do not cycle, roll out of the way, sling the gun, roll back in with the rest of the stack.)

 

The Benelli M4 for obvious reasons is a horrible choice for a dedicated breacher. It's heavy, takes up space, is semi-auto, etc.

 

What the M4 was intended to be, is a "combat shotgun". A close quarters tool for dominance. The issue was that it was a product of the 1990's. During the 90's, Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo were all on the radar. These were not really full blown, but they were "hot spots". They were places US troops deployed as a show of force and to help keep things level. Basically "guard duty". Shotguns look tough. They have a big bore. People know big things come from big barrels. Even a 5 year old can intuit this. Shotguns are excellent at dealing with cars, or taking down very dedicated attackers. This is why the Benelli M4 is most prolifically used by MP's currently. This is also why the US Navy is all about shotguns for ship use. This is why they are used to guard nuclear munitions. Close quarters dominance. So the marines wanted something to replace their pump guns that was more "combat effective". They wanted a beast of a semi-auto. And they got it. And just as soon as they got it, they got sent to a place where you may be shooting someone in the hall one minute, and in the next minute you may be shooting someone at 300m who is popping shots at you from behind a rock or down an alley. The shotgun is not much awesome for this.

 

So the Benelli M4 largely became a support weapon, or a guard/MP weapon. 

 

Of course, the M4 was the USMC combat shotgun so of COURSE it became stoopid popular among civilians. It was featured in games. People bought them. They were super cool. I remember seeing one at the gun store when I was in highschool. Such a beast! Then I got older and could afford one. I bought my first one in 2008, I believe it was. I remember a few things specifically. One, driving out to my Dad's place with college friend and blasting stuff with it. Two, trying to put a red dot and a light on it for killing coyotes. Blasting plates with slugs at range was by far the more effective use.

 

By this time people had done some time in Iraq, and were returning home. People like Kyle Lamb and others were starting to train civilians like myself. It quickly became apparent t hat you needed a light on the gun. An optic was also a HUGE help. The solutions for the Benelli M4 were...lacking, to put it nicely. Basically it became a pure toy, while my 5.56 carbines were my go-to tools for dealing with anything. I sold my Benelli. I then bought another because it was so COOL! Sold it. Then a few things like the AVA mount and Surefire rail and all that became "a thing". Kip made a rail for the gun that wouldn't shred mounts, etc. I tried it again. Jeez it was heavy, but it did kindof work. SO much wasted material setting it up, though. Clunkly. LED lights were kindof "meh" and no real good mount solutions for the violence of a shotgun presented. The Surefire M600C was pretty legit, as were Malkoff drop-ins. Anyway, it just wasn't...cohesive. Ergonomics for all this stuff were horrible. I sold again.

 

FINALLY in the late 20-teens we began getting some kit that REALLY turned the Benelli M4 into something day/night ergonomically and functionally useful. I bought back in in 2017 with an SBS and haven't looked back. The platform has finally matured, and it slowly replaces my 5.56 carbines for most things. Militarily? The carbine is where it's at. We have 20+ years of war with it, and it works under a broad range of circumstances very well. It's been pretty much perfected. That said, my uses are more narrow, as I am not taking it to "war". The benelli M4 has also found a home with LAPD, and other LE agencies. 

 

That said, as troops returned home, and training and skills demanded became "more inclusive", the heavier recoiling 12ga quickly fell out if favor with many departments. Coupled with the liability if multiple projectiles, and the advent of "TAP" and other ballistic tip type 5.56 ammunition that risk management loves, along with low recoil, and it has been a slam dunk relegating the gauge to less and less users every admin change.

 

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Unobtanium

[Franklinexpress]

7 minutes ago, Unobtanium said:

No, it kindof sucks for that. Doors are best done with a pistol grip type gauge like this:

 

Breach the door, roll out of the stack, sling the gauge (no live round in the chamber is one very dominant school of thought here, because shotguns are not drop safe, and when sling, those safeties  often will get toggled on gear, and so forth, so no live round. Pop the lock, do not cycle, roll out of the way, sling the gun, roll back in with the rest of the stack.)

 

The Benelli M4 for obvious reasons is a horrible choice for a dedicated breacher. It's heavy, takes up space, is semi-auto, etc.

 

What the M4 was intended to be, is a "combat shotgun". A close quarters tool for dominance. The issue was that it was a product of the 1990's. During the 90's, Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo were all on the radar. These were not really full blown, but they were "hot spots". They were places US troops deployed as a show of force and to help keep things level. Basically "guard duty". Shotguns look tough. They have a big bore. People know big things come from big barrels. Even a 5 year old can intuit this. Shotguns are excellent at dealing with cars, or taking down very dedicated attackers. This is why the Benelli M4 is most prolifically used by MP's currently. This is also why the US Navy is all about them for ship use. This is why they are used to guard nuclear munitions. Close quarters dominance. So the marines wanted something to replace their pump guns that was more "combat effective". They wanted a beast of a semi-auto. And they got it. And just as soon as they got it, they got sent to a place where you may be shooting someone in the hall one minute, and in the next minute you may be shooting someone at 300m who is popping shots at you from behind a rock or down an alley. The shotgun is not much awesome for this.

 

So the Benelli M4 largely became a support weapon, or a guard/MP weapon. 

 

Of course, the M4 was the USMC combat shotgun so of COURSE it became stoopid popular among civilians. It was featured in games. People bought them. They were super cool. I remember seeing one at the gun store when I was in highschool. Such a beast! Then I got older and could afford one. I bought my first one in 2008, I believe it was. I remember a few things specifically. One, driving out to my Dad's place with college friend and blasting stuff with it. Two, trying to put a red dot and a light on it for killing coyotes. Blasting plates with slugs at range was by far the more effective use.

 

By this time people had done some time in Iraq, and were returning home. People like Kyle Lamb and others were starting to train civilians like myself. It quickly became apparent t hat you needed a light on the gun. An optic was also a HUGE help. The solutions for the Benelli M4 were...lacking, to put it nicely. Basically it became a pure toy, while my 5.56 carbines were my go-to tools for dealing with anything. I sold my Benelli. I then bought another because it was so COOL! Sold it. Then a few things like the AVA mount and Surefire rail and all that became "a thing". Kip made a rail for the gun that wouldn't shred mounts, etc. I tried it again. Jeez it was heavy, but it did kindof work. SO much wasted material setting it up, though. Clunkly. LED lights were kindof "meh" and no real good mount solutions for the violence of a shotgun presented. The Surefire M600C was pretty legit, as were Malkoff drop-ins. Anyway, it just wasn't...cohesive. Ergonomics for all this stuff were horrible. I sold again.

 

FINALLY in the late 20-teens we began getting some kit that REALLY turned the Benelli M4 into something day/night ergonomically and functionally useful. I bought back in in 2017 with an SBS and haven't looked back. The platform has finally matured, and it slowly replaces my 5.56 carbines for most things. Militarily? The carbine is where it's at. We have 20+ years of war with it, and it works under a broad range of circumstances very well. It's been pretty much perfected. That said, my uses are more narrow, as I am not taking it to "war".

 

 

You got a few things wrong there my friend, never heard people complain about the m4 down range , another thing with breaching is that sometimes it took more than 1 round to break in, so a semi auto was just perfect to get in ASAP. The technique is to go bottom up and shoot 3, now, sure, different units did this however they saw fit but I never heard complaints.

[cas]

Comparing Benelli to Benelli....  you're saying don't compare the M4 that does "A", to say an M1 or M2 that does "A, B & C".   My thinking IS comparing apples to apples, is the M4 really better at A than the other two?   Thus far, personally have no real reason to think that it is.

(you can save the typing on what the government buys with our tax money, what they buy and why have little relevance to you and I. What the Marines buy has little bearing on my life.)

[Franklinexpress]

1 minute ago, cas said:

Comparing Benelli to Benelli....  you're saying don't compare the M4 that does "A", to say an M1 or M2 that does "A, B & C".   My thinking IS comparing apples to apples, is the M4 really better at A than the other two?   Thus far, personally have no real reason to think that it is.

(you can save the typing on what the government buys with our tax money, what they buy and why have little relevance to you and I. What the Marines buy has little bearing on my life.)

Yup, at the end of the day, any decent gun will do any of the other’s job just fine, especially when it comes to civilian use. I think most people buy based on Looks>Reliability>Ergonomics 

[Unobtanium]

9 minutes ago, cas said:

Comparing Benelli to Benelli....  you're saying don't compare the M4 that does "A", to say an M1 or M2 that does "A, B & C".   My thinking IS comparing apples to apples, is the M4 really better at A than the other two?   Thus far, personally have no real reason to think that it is.

(you can save the typing on what the government buys with our tax money, what they buy and why have little relevance to you and I. What the Marines buy has little bearing on my life.)

The Benelli M4 is more versatile. It suffers in weight to bring you lights, optics, lasers, and other items of compatibility without sacrificing reliability. 

[Unobtanium]

19 minutes ago, Franklinexpress said:

You got a few things wrong there my friend, never heard people complain about the m4 down range , another thing with breaching is that sometimes it took more than 1 round to break in, so a semi auto was just perfect to get in ASAP. The technique is to go bottom up and shoot 3, now, sure, different units did this however they saw fit but I never heard complaints.

Sounds good in theory, but breeching rounds along with technique often keep the weapon from cycling. You can observe multiple failures to cycle in this video of USMC door breaching fam fire/training course:

 

Noone I know carried a Benelli M4 to breach doors. I do know one guy who did kill someone with a Benelli M4 in Afghanistan, though. He said it worked very well for that. Most people I know who had experience with them were quite pleased with them. They just weren't breaching doors with them.

 

*Look at those beautiful blue receivers at 1:46, too! Benelli has always had ano dye variance.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Unobtanium