shotgun rounds for home defence

[Novaking]

I Dont Know About Cramped, But Your Deffinantly Mental.

 

And you smell a little to!!!

[Nikolai552]

Maybe we should all take a breather and realize these are all opinions and maybe just nod your head to what someone else says, instead of making an argument? It's obvious many people think differently as far as HD loads. I don't see why some people are getting there undies in a bundle.

[will0861]

I know I'm new here, but I felt like chiming in.

 

One thing I didn't see mentioned was coming up with some kind of plan, in case of a break in. I know that Murphy's law is always present, but it doesn't hurt to pick a place in your house that puts you between your family and the bad guy. That way you aren't moving through the house at night, and possibly letting the bad guy disarm you. I have a rather long hallway in my house that leads to the bedrooms. Unless someone breaks in through the bedroom windows, I know I can get some cover in my bedroom doorway, and hopefully keep them at bay until the police arrive. Like everyone else, I hope I am never in that situation, but there is no way in **** I'll let anything happen to my wife or kids.

 

I would hope that we would all have a cool enough head to consider what is behind the bad guy before we fire. Often times the sound of a shotgun is deterrent enough. If you have such a small house that your family is always in your line of fire, then maybe you should consider a taser, or maybe some bean bag rounds.

[Unobtanium]

Maybe I should take into account that someone who says someone got knocked back "20 feet" when they shot them is a bit prone to outbursts/exaggerations (So I exaggerated as well. I figured you would realise the hyperbole in your post, but instead you had a little outburst), and other things of the sort, including character assasination and whatnot. So I will simply overlook all of your bold-type and charming rhetoric.

 

As to my appartment having brick walls, what should it have? Sheet-metal? Maybe stucco? Seriously, where do you live in DFW? All my friends live in brick houses and appartments there.

 

If you want to cite Clint Smith and his advice, then TAKE IT. Don't cite him and then do the opposite of his best advice.

 

While Glaser safety slugs are a step up from bird-shot to be sure, take into account that you are far more likely to miss than to over-penetrate, with ANY round. Especially from a pistol in a high-stress situation. Firearms CAN kill people. When used properly though, that risk is minimized (I say minimized b/c in a shooting, you can't always pick your backstop. Sometimes it is shoot or be shot.). What you are trying to do is build a nerf-car basically. It's not going to happen. Accept the risk of using an effective round, or accept that what you DO use is not going to be the best and prepair accordingly. Don't make excuses for inferior alternatives.

 

Almost every single person in the field of terminal ballistics from coroners to officers to MD's will tell you birdshot is NOT the way to go. There is nothing you can say to convince me, or others in the know otherwise, the fact that you have convinced yourself not withstanding.

[Unobtanium]

Maybe we should all take a breather and realize these are all opinions and maybe just nod your head to what someone else says, instead of making an argument? It's obvious many people think differently as far as HD loads. I don't see why some people are getting there undies in a bundle.

This is such a heated topic because we are not discussing "Ranger T vs. Federal HST". THAT is opinion (in my opinion). We are discussing something that 2 groups of people feel VERY strongly about and there is no way for there to be a compromise here. There is going to have to be a begrudging acceptance from both parties that neither is going to change their ways, both parties will think the other stupid for their choice, and move on with life. Sometimes, that is just what has to happen. This is not kindergarden and we do not all get along on everything. Since both parties have shown they refuse to back down on their opinion, the goal now is to be mature enough to confine our disagreements and angst to this one thread and one topic and leave it at that.

[splashtx556ftw]

i would not have attacked your charactor, had you not made it sound like i was discribing a scene out of daffy duck, and bugs bunny cartoon. there was nothing funny, or over exaggerated about it. what happened was life altering. if you have never been in that situation,then you really dont know. i pray you never have to find out. at the time i was living in a 2 bed room mobil home. as im sure you are aware the bed rooms are nearly always on oppisite ends of the house, and the walls are paper thin. both interior, and exterior. just as walls in apartments are. we did have a plan of defense, and used it. i was knelling beside the bed so that the blast would have an upward angle. i was barely in position when the man came down the hall. imagine your self being awoke to the sound of your door being kicked in!! not only do you have very little time to react, but your doing it half alseep.the police measured from the blood splatters on the wall to place where he lay,at 19' 10". it mat not have been the force alone that landed him there, but a combination of shock,noise, and the pellets together.none the less i have no reason to lie to you about any of it.and it pissed me off for you to insinuate that i did. we still have the same plan, but now we sleep with the door closed , and a light on in the hall, so that should some one open the door they will be a silloette in the light. i dont use glaser rounds. im using nytrillium extreme shock rounds.

[Unobtanium]

i would not have attacked your charactor, had you not made it sound like i was discribing a scene out of daffy duck, and bugs bunny cartoon. there was nothing funny, or over exaggerated about it. what happened was life altering. if you have never been in that situation,then you really dont know. i pray you never have to find out. at the time i was living in a 2 bed room mobil home. as im sure you are aware the bed rooms are nearly always on oppisite ends of the house, and the walls are paper thin. both interior, and exterior. just as walls in apartments are. we did have a plan of defense, and used it. i was knelling beside the bed so that the blast would have an upward angle. i was barely in position when the man came down the hall. imagine your self being awoke to the sound of your door being kicked in!! not only do you have very little time to react, but your doing it half alseep.the police measured from the blood splatters on the wall to place where he lay,at 19' 10". it mat not have been the force alone that landed him there, but a combination of shock,noise, and the pellets together.none the less i have no reason to lie to you about any of it.and it pissed me off for you to insinuate that i did. we still have the same plan, but now we sleep with the door closed , and a light on in the hall, so that should some one open the door they will be a silloette in the light. i dont use glaser rounds. im using nytrillium extreme shock rounds.

 

Okay, my advice at this point is to go back to square one and do some research and get that crap out of your gun, man.No offence, I got taken in by the hype too when I was in highschool. I had a friend who had some RBCD ammunition and I bought it. Total farce. What you are using is not cool. I recommend you join www.tacticalforums.com

It is an un-biased site that you can learn a lot from, I know I did. Just post up asking about your choice in ammo and how you could better it. There are surgeons, MD's, and TONS of seasoned LE on there. They won't steer you wrong. Let me guess, Extreme Shok ammo? The company that photo-shops their add to make it appear as though there is a black guy as well, when it is really just some white guy 3 times? Look at the hands, lmao, black guy/white hands!

 

ETA: This is not a personal attack. Please just do some research and set "self" and your ego aside for about 30 minutes while you do a few searches on the website I referred you to. I am just trying to help you out with one of the greatest/most dangerous to YOU, scams in the industry.

[splashtx556ftw]

no thanks . ive tested the ammo, and im very happy with the results. i shot a coyote with them at 40yds,nytrillium 357. it blew his chest cavity completly apart,and nothing passed through the body.and there was no ad depicting any black man. i take it your white.

[splashtx556ftw]

i take no ones word for anything . i do extensive research on the products, and field test them myself. that way i know exactly what the out come will be. and before you even start... im white.

[ERdept]

nytrillium extreme shock is BS.

 

 

Do some extensive research on it. The name alone is a liability. A lot of marketing hype here.

 

Some fall victim to it, some don't. Nytryllium is not even a element or compound. It's something they made up in addition to the black guy they created in their advertising.

 

The whole company is based on deceptiveness. If it worked well, the FBI, and SWAT and many shooter and gun writers would switch over.

 

It CANNOT perform as well as the other established JHP's on the market.

 

Please don't be a victim of they hype.

 

 

There's a website out there called "The box 'O truth" that fires all kinds of ammo into dry wall, water jugs and ballistic gelitan. Very intereting results for all kinds of calibers, but their take on these rounds is paraphrased below....

 

2. Claim: They are supposed to be able to penetrate a bad guy enough to be effective Stoppers.

Findings: Both the Fang Face and Air Freedom rounds only fully penetrated 1 jug and slightly entered the second jug.

 

This is equilivant of 3 or 4 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin. Some experts have doubts that this is enough penetration to reach the vital organs of a bad guy.

 

 

Splash, I have no bad blood with you, only the common link of gun ownership. Please use proven rounds man. I'm not arguing with you, just trying to help.

 

Sometimes people dogmatically believe something and one announced, cannot waiver, even in the face of insurmountabe evidence, because their ego and credibility are at stake.

 

That was me in the past.

 

There are proven stoppers that work and are cheaper, and allow you to save money for practice rounds and drills.

 

As stated in Box O Truth, the mechanical skills of a shotgun and placement are more important than the round granted you stick to those proven rounds.

 

I have short shucked many 870's in stress training. I wished I did more drills in the end.

 

Anyway, a few inches of penetration, if that with the hype'd round, because you have people wearing heavy clothing may allow that person who thinks he's still in the fight after surviving a shotgun blast to rush you and try to take it away.

[Novaking]

undies in a bundle.

 

what makes you think I wear underwear

[Nikolai552]

what makes you think I wear underwear

I knew we were an oddball

[Novaking]

I knew we were an oddball

 

Yeah, I always have a place to hang my hat.

[Nikolai552]

Not sure any of us care to know that. Sick-o

[Unobtanium]

nytrillium extreme shock is BS.

 

 

Do some extensive research on it. The name alone is a liability. A lot of marketing hype here.

 

Some fall victim to it, some don't. Nytryllium is not even a element or compound. It's something they made up in addition to the black guy they created in their advertising.

 

The whole company is based on deceptiveness. If it worked well, the FBI, and SWAT and many shooter and gun writers would switch over.

 

It CANNOT perform as well as the other established JHP's on the market.

 

Please don't be a victim of they hype.

 

 

There's a website out there called "The box 'O truth" that fires all kinds of ammo into dry wall, water jugs and ballistic gelitan. Very intereting results for all kinds of calibers, but their take on these rounds is paraphrased below....

 

2. Claim: They are supposed to be able to penetrate a bad guy enough to be effective Stoppers.

Findings: Both the Fang Face and Air Freedom rounds only fully penetrated 1 jug and slightly entered the second jug.

 

This is equilivant of 3 or 4 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin. Some experts have doubts that this is enough penetration to reach the vital organs of a bad guy.

 

 

ER. This guy is a mall-ninja type and you won't get anywhere with your logic. I have tried and failed. As to this add by Extreme Shock, here you go 556.

 

BTW 556. What does my race (or yours) have to do with anything? Also, for the love of your family, PLEASE, seek some good information. You obviously have no idea what is what in the world of terminal ballistics.

 

^Same guy, 3 times, photo-shopped. Here is a link to the scammers site.

 

http://www.extremeshockusa.com/

 

Evan Marshall

Ed Sanow

Clint Smith

 

All of these guys would either piss their pants laughing at you for buying this stuff, or shaking their heads with pity and disgust. Then again, what do they know?

 

*SIGH*

 

There is no saving some people from themselves.

[splashtx556ftw]

well in the first place ive never seen this ad before.they were recomended by the police officer that answered the call to my house, and i bought them out of a gun shop with no ads or pics around them. i tried several different types of saftey bullets. i too shot gallon jugs of water with them. some passed clear through the back side of the jugs. everybody here seems to be missing my point entirely. I DONT WANT FULL PENATRATION. i dont want ANYTHING passing through my intended target. i dont even necessarly want to kill the person. i just want to stop them and if the first one doesnt do the job, i have 5 more right behind it. when i shot the coyote with one it did some very real damage. granted a human has bigger bones and heavier muscle mass than a dog. but 99% of normal people when shot do not continue to fight, unless thier on pcp, or cocain. i read some years ago that by ATF reports, more people had been killed by 22s than any other caliber of firearm in the nation. im not trying to force people to believe what i do,nor do i want them doing it to me. and im not mad because they dont.i did how ever get my "undies in a wad" over basicly being called a liar, and having a life or death ordeal being made fun of. i can send anyone who wants one a copy of the police report.

[splashtx556ftw]

just a thought to leave you with. if we spent as much money on fortifying our homes as we do on home defense firearms we wouldnt need them ,would we? i have since spent several thousand dollars on window bars that can be opened from the inside and not the outside, and steel doors and door jams. because what scared me most was the fact the man gained entry to my home with one good kick.

[Unobtanium]

just a thought to leave you with. if we spent as much money on fortifying our homes as we do on home defense firearms we wouldnt need them ,would we? i have since spent several thousand dollars on window bars that can be opened from the inside and not the outside, and steel doors and door jams. because what scared me most was the fact the man gained entry to my home with one good kick.

 

Wherever a smart person spends his energy "proofing" something, a stupid person will spend vast amounts of time and brute force "un-proofing" it. There is no way your home could ever be as solid as a bank vault, and yet history dictates that even a bank vault is at risk.

 

As far as the ammunition you are using, it comes from a scam-artist company. If NOTHING else, I would NOT trust their quality control. You have shot what, 5-20 rounds of the stuff? If that? You have no idea how often those rounds do fragment. Try shooting 1,000 of them and you will gain a general idea of it. What you have done is about like marrying a girl after the 2nd date just because she said her father is an oil baron and she has a pretty smile.

 

Think about this. Federal air marshalls use Speer Gold Dot ammunition. In 357SIG (very similar, terminally, to what you have, a .357 magnum). Now, do you think there might just be a bit of liability firing a gun in a tubular vehicle PACKED with passengers? WHY would the Federal Air Marshalls pick a needlessly over-penetrating round if some nitro-whatever would be superior? Do you think they are on THAT tight of a budget? If they feel strongly enough that they need a round that penetrates enough to take a person down enough to use it on an airplane vs. some "wonder-round", maybe you too should reconsider.

[splashtx556ftw]

ive ran 250 rnds of it. let me ask you .how many have you shot of it? do you know anyone who has? do you know anything about but what youve read? i never said anything about making my house a bank vault. i knew your own "ego" wouldnt allow you to even remotly admit that it would be a plus. the door i bought had a video of police trying to break one down with a 225lb 2 person battering ram. after 31 strikes it gave up.that gives me ample time to prepare. and just to set the record straight a 357 sig is compareable to a 9mm, not a 357 mag. 357 sig 147gr hornady xtp=1100-1200 fbs, 9mm=1000fps w/same bullet, 357 mag hornady 158gr hornady xtp= 1510-1590fps and energy ft lbs is almost double. but just to make you feel better ill load my 44 mag with 300gr hornady xtp hollow points, and sleep with my armalite ar-50 under my pillow for full 6 block penatration..... or are they both a scam too???

[Nikolai552]

ive ran 250 rnds of it. let me ask you .how many have you shot of it? do you know anyone who has? do you know anything about but what youve read? i never said anything about making my house a bank vault. i knew your own "ego" wouldnt allow you to even remotly admit that it would be a plus. the door i bought had a video of police trying to break one down with a 225lb 2 person battering ram. after 31 strikes it gave up.that gives me ample time to prepare. and just to set the record straight a 357 sig is compareable to a 9mm, not a 357 mag. 357 sig 147gr hornady xtp=1100-1200 fbs, 9mm=1000fps w/same bullet, 357 mag hornady 158gr hornady xtp= 1510-1590fps and energy ft lbs is almost double. but just to make you feel better ill load my 44 mag with 300gr hornady xtp hollow points, and sleep with my armalite ar-50 under my pillow for full 6 block penatration..... or are they both a scam too???

 

Not sure you can make an argument out of what he just said. Makes sense and there is no doubt in my mind the bullet statistics he put up are correct.

[Unobtanium]

Not sure you can make an argument out of what he just said. Makes sense and there is no doubt in my mind the bullet statistics he put up are correct.

 

 

Okay, you think the 357SIG is NOT equal to the 357 magnum?

 

Well in the 150gr+ loads you are 100% correct. However, in the 125gr loads (if you are familiar with the .357 mag's track record, you will know it made it's name with 125gr JHP's), the rounds give very similar performance. Double Tap even has a load that will punch 1450+fps in 357SIG.

 

The hottest thing I have seen in 9mm Is the Ranger T +P+ 127gr (an excellent round btw). It clocks at around 1220-1275fps, depending on the weapon.

 

So let me get this straight, you ran over a thousand dollars worth of this stuff through your weapon? Or did you get a deal on it? If you payed list price, no wonder you refuse to believe the stuff is crap, you payed an arm and a leg for it! If I was faced with admitting that I wasted 1K, I would disagree vehemently too!

 

As to making your house a vault. I agree, you CAN fortify it, and this is well and good. A good solid dead-bolt and front door like you have are EXCELLENT ideas. The window bars are icing on the cake. I would also recommend a good dog. Seriously, dogs can/have turned the tide more than once! Good companionship as well.

 

I would also recommend that you stop taking the word of some police officer that may or may not know his head from a hole in the ground. Stop reading adds, stop shooting water buckets, and start making phone-calls. Now this is if you honestly care about the topic here.

 

CALL some of these people. Go on, pick up the phone and call Gunsite. Call Thunder Ranch. They would be MORE than happy to offer their expert opinions on the ammo being discussed here. I honestly think that if you intend to better yourself, or to vindicate yourself, whichever may end up being the case for you, that you do so with a reliable source. Talk to someone who has used and does know how these things perform. Not just once or twice, but over and over and over again. I have heard stories of Brahma bulls being killed with a large stick to the head. I would NOT, however, base my safety on that one incident. So go ahead, call someone who knows more than you (or I, or anyone else on here I would wager) AND ASK THEM!

 

If you don't want to do that, then at least join a forum dedicated to the topic in this thread. www.stoppingpower.net as well as www.tacticalforums.com are two such forums. I tend to prefer the latter as it is much less biased and has more surgeons/coroners/ect. on the board.

 

I have researched, this stuff to death, I know a lot of guys on the force here who HAVE had to use lethal force, ect. I have looked at this topic up and down and am familiar with every round you have mentioned and it's average effect on the human body. I am FAR from an expert, but I do know enough to know that you have not even scratched the surface of terminal ballistics and I am trying to steer you to a place where you can make an informed decision, whether it coincides with mine or not doesn't matter to me. I simply want you to base your opinions on something other than shooting a 35# animal or a water jug.

 

If I based ALL my thoughts on that I would conclude thus-far: A random pellet of #3 buck is enough. A shotgun slug will only penetrate 2 milk jugs. Walmart WWB JHP's perform better than Speer Gold Dot's.

 

I have shot milk-jugs/coyotes with the above results. Are they correct? I think not. They were ONE TIME and in THAT scenario, though.

 

Here is Speer 125gr GOld Dot .357 magnum ammunition.

http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=23920

Here is Speer 125gr Gold Dot 357 SIG ammunition

http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=23918

 

The 357 mag has a 100fps advantage on the SIG. While this is a difference, it is not a whole lot of one.

 

THe 9mm +P 124gr was 130fps behind the SIG round, so the SIG is closer to the magnum than is the 9mm, and like I said, Double Tap loads some SIG that is hotter than the Magnum stuff. However, since Speer manufactures each bullet to the velocity of the cartridge, not a lot will be gained as they tune each round for optimal expansion/penetration within it's performance envelope (look at a GDHP 9mm vs. 357 round sometime, visible difference in the hollowpoint).

 

At any rate, this has turned into just some pissing contest and I doubt you get anything out of my post as I have given you a wealth of knowledge and resources in my previous posts and you did nothing with it either. This is my last INFORMATIVE post in this topic unless you have any specific questions. I am not going to waste any more time unless someone is benefitting from it.

 

ETA: Seriously, why don't you consider something like a taser gun? It is non-lethal, and proven effective. It WONT go through a wall, and if you mistakenly hit your wife with it, the worst that will happen will be her response to you. Just something for you to consider.

[Nikolai552]

What happens when you miss with a Taser gun and the invader has a gun... You won't have time to replace the cartridge if he has a gun...

[Novaking]

The .357 mag is a .38 caliber bullet. .357 sig is a .355 bullet. Just thought I would chime in with something.

[Novaking]

P.S the .327 federal is "close" to the .357 mag to. Thats a .32 cal. bullet.

[Unobtanium]

What happens when you miss with a Taser gun and the invader has a gun... You won't have time to replace the cartridge if he has a gun...

 

The same thing that happens when your ineffective ammunition choice fails to incapacitate him within a shot or two. You end up dead/injured. However, since the poster does not wish to use anything more effective than birdshot or fad ammo, what can I advise?