SergeantBernie

You asked if that would make the gun illegal. If you were to simply have a smith mod your barrel for you and you slapped it on a non-NFA registered M4, then yes that would be illegal. Up in the middle of the post I mentioned that this was an option for anybody wishing to register their M4 as a short barreled shotgun. (Actually I just used the acronym SBS and didn't elaborate - not very clear on my part, sorry). Basically you pay the ATF the $200 fee for the tax stamp and within a month you have an approved Form 1. Once your M4 is registered as a SBS, you can put on any bells or whistles you desire (extension tube, collapsible stock, etc.) since it is now an NFA weapon and exempt from the frustrating and utterly imbecilic 922r regulations. I think this is a very worthwhile ability for $200 if you can swing it. If you ever need to sell the shotgun in the future and don't want to hassle with selling it as an NFA weapon, you can return it to its original factory configuration, sell the extra parts and then have the ATF delist it from the NFA registry for free. Then, off it goes on its merry way - no longer a registered NFA weapon. Shane A. Bernskoetter Author of: Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq http://www.survivingtwilight.com

After an exhaustive search and dozens and dozens of phone calls, I've managed to track down a gunsmith who is interested in converting my 18.5" M4 barrel down to the 14" entry length. Almost every other shop I called either said "We don't want to do it since it would require moving both the front sight and the mag tube locking ring, too much hassle", or the price was astronomical ($600 +). I just sent my barrel off a week or so ago to this new shop, and after some discussions of what would be involved they gave me a price of $275. The shop purchased an M4 to conduct fit checks on, and they will get the process nailed down using my barrel as the guinea pig. Hopefully by mid June I will have the finished 14" barrel back in my hands. I'm not going to provide the shop's name just yet, I want to get the barrel back and see how it pans out so as to not get anybody ticked off in case it only turns out so-so. If it turns out to be of the level of quality I've come to know from this shop, I will at that point put up a post to alert you other folks out there interested in registering your Benelli M4 as a short barreled shotgun. I encourage anybody out there going the SBS route to still continue to call around to shops in case you stumble upon a better deal, but I did want to post an alert that I think I finally found a high quality solution for a great price. Keep this in mind over the next few weeks and as soon as I get my barrel back, I'll let you know if it is worthy of adorning your M4! I will also post pictures of the finished product so you can judge the work for yourself. Shane A. Bernskoetter Author of: Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq http://www.survivingtwilight.com

I fail to see what the big deal is. The stocks aren't available to civilians, or are at least very difficult to come by. People want them. They have money. They obviously value that stock at a higher dollar amount than the seller does, so a transaction occurs. Please stop calling people gougers. If you don't want to pay what the market is supporting for the damn stock, don't buy it. I didn't have the foresight to buy a pile of them, I only have one. If I did have a pile, you can bet I'd be putting them on Ebay one at a time getting a bunch of green for each. Unless somebody on here is your brother, best friend or is the sibling of a hot babe you are looking to date.... Why in the **** would hand over a stock to them for $400 when you could get $900 on Ebay? That makes absolutely no sense. Welcome to the Class 3 world in a small way. Those few pretty little black toys are worth piles of money simply because many people want them and there are a very limited supply. Stop b*tching about "gouging". Just because you can't afford it doesn't mean somebody owes you a free handout in the form of a half priced stock. Shane A. Bernskoetter Author of: Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq http://www.survivingtwilight.com

I've been searching high and low for a Benelli M4 entry barrel in the 14" configuration and have been skunked at every turn. I asked Benelli how I can order them and they told me to go through a Berretta Defense LE dealer. I called about 60% of the dealers listed on the LE contacts website and came up with a big fat ZERO. Every one of them said that they couldn't order the barrel by itself, only the whole shotgun. I then asked about ordering the entry shotgun and requested availability quotes. Invariably, the dealers all came back and said the entry shotgun had an estimated arrival date of somewhere between two days from Noneday to three weeks after the first blue moon of the 4th millenium. Here my poor 11707 sits as a Form 1 short barreled shotgun and I can't for the life of me get ahold of the short barrel! I've been running down some leads to have a smith work my barrel down, and may have some luck there. I've found the factory 18.5" barrel for as low as $465. I think I'd be willing to pay $800 for a 14" barrel if one could be found. Anybody have any other luck running one of these barrels or entry guns down? I called MrMilitaryPolice's contact with an entry gun for sale last month but the guy right ahead of me on the phone claimed it. Doh! What would you pay for a 14" barrel? Shane Bernskoetter Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq http://www.survivingtwilight.com

Hey guys, I have an 11707 M4 and I'm interested in picking up a spare barrel for it to attempt a cut down procedure. Anybody with a spare 11707 barrel that is interested in parting with it please send me an email with your desired price. Thanks! [email protected] Shane A. Bernskoetter Author of: Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq http://www.survivingtwilight.com

I own one of the steel NoDak Spud tubes. Although the limiter allows you to pull the barrel off while mounted, the NoDak Spud tube requires removal of the tube before you can remove the barrel. I called the guy selling them to ask about this and he referred me to the guy that made them. The maker got the neck diameter dimension by measuring 6 limiter tubes he could get ahold of, and they are all made to the same specification. I'm not sure why, but the limiters he got ahold of and the limiter I own differ by 0.015" in diameter at the neck. His part has a larger outside diameter than my limiter. This 15 thousandths oversize in his part is enough to NOT allow the barrel to be installed when the NoDak Spud tube is on. The tube is very well made and well finished, it just has the unfortunate requirement of removing the tube before you can get the barrel off. Shane A. Bernskoetter Author of: Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq http://www.survivingtwilight.com

Hey all, this is a question for any of you out there that own a factory +2 extension for the M4. When you replace the cheesy black dummy plug on the end of your tube with the factory +2 extension, can you then slide the barrel right into place? I was not sure if the neck bulge on the factory +2 extension allows the barrel ring to slide over it or if you have to put the barrel on first, and then slide the extension into place. Some of the aftermarket extensions require you to remove the extension in order to completely remove the barrel since the barrel ring won't slide over the extension neck. This seems a bit back-assward and I wanted to check with those with a factory +2 to see if this is the case with it too. Thanks for any help in clarifying the ease of getting the barrel on and off with factory extensions. Shane Bernskoetter http://www.survivingtwilight.com

I purchased my M4 11707 with a collapsible stock back about 6 months ago from Law Enforcement Sales, USA. The guys that run the place are Arnold and Mike. I was extremely pleased with the speed and price of the deal, and when I went back to their website I saw they were advertising 11707 M4's WITH a collapsible stock included in addition to the fixed stock for $1499. In addition to this the website offers the stock by itself for sale for $299. I called Arnold up and spoke with him regarding availability and Benelli rumors, and he said right now they are getting M4's in every few days and selling them just about as fast as they receive them. Additionally, he said that Benelli has indeed passed on that the stocks that he will get that can be turned around to civilians is going to be drying up soon. All that being said, they are getting them and selling them as fast as they can. If you are interested and don't want to pay the ridiculous prices showing up on Gunbroker.com, then check out Law Enforcement Sales USA for a more reasonable option. I have no stake in the company, just wanted to pass on a decent deal when I saw it. Only too happy to have more fellow collapsible stocked M4 owners out there! http://www.lesalesusa.com/clearance.htm Shane Bernskoetter Author of: Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq http://www.survivingtwilight.com

I called the dealer that has that weapon in stock and take a guess at the price he's asking? $1500 plus the $200 tax stamp? Nope. Try $2300 plus the $200 tax stamp. If you can get a dealer to order an entry M4 for you and they only charge you retail, count your blessing and take pictures of yourself with it so you can always remember that happy day. I've not seen a single one south of $2000. Good luck finding the 14 inch barrel solo! I've not managed to track down anything except a chopped down and refinished 18.5" barrel that became a 14" one. Shane Bernskoetter Author of: Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq http://www.survivingtwilight.com

Having an LLC allows you to ignore 2 things on the Form 1 application: 1. Going to your CLEO and getting him to personally sign your request to make an SBR (a big help if you live in a county or town with a liberal CLEO) 2. Don't have to submit fingerprint card. As the CEO of InsertNameHere, LLC - you can sign in blocks 9, 10 and 11 on the Form 1 and NOTHING else below that point needs to be filled out. Pull up a Form 1 to examine and see what I'm speaking of. Also, since the LLC is applying on the Form 1 and not you as an individual, you simply put down the LLC address as listed on your articles of Incorporation you filed with your state. Separate thinking of YOU and the LLC. The LLC is applying on the Form 1, NOT YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL. The only place YOUR name will appear is in block 9 and 10 signing as the all powerful CEO of InsertNameHere, LLC. The address of the LLC is where the firearms should reside, although if you store them in your home vault and you are an officer of the LLC (registered at a different address) then there shouldn't be any problems. Shane Bernskoetter Author of: Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq http://www.survivingtwilight.com

I've been looking around for about 6 months for a 14" barrel and have managed to come across only two, and they've been on M4's imported in that condition within the past few years. Asking prices in both cases were above $2200. Your $200 transfer fee is in addition to this. Given the fact that importation of Barrels, Frames and Receivers for nonsporting firearms (below 16" for barrels) have been nearly (or even completely) cut off based on the following letter from the ATF: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/071305openletter.htm Bookmark this letter and weep to it at night. After I read it I felt like my puppy just got hit and killed by a truck right in front of me. Since this policy was adopted, prices for demilled kits of all sorts of cool SBR source rifles have jumped up substantially. They aren't bringing any more in. God bless the ATF's penchant for "reinterpretation". Shane Bernskoetter Author of: Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq http://www.survivingtwilight.com

Before you get too worked up, this similar post has been shooting around the web like wildfire. The guys over at AR15.com started up a post and it got locked out by the moderators when they finally had enough "the sky is falling comments". Here is the post: http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=316258 And here is what the moderators wrote when they shut it down and had somebody ask them to reopen the AWB2 thread: From AR15.com moderator FOREST ******************************* Which AWB thread? Do you know how many we've had in the last 2 weeks? Do you realize this bill comes up every year and has no cosponsors - that is will go nowhere and neither the NRA~ILA nor the GOA are concerned about it? Right now the big issues are in the State Legislatures - visit your State's Hometown Forum to learn about what is going on there and what you can do to help. We also have a Politics & Activism Forum where about half these dupes have ended up. That is the appropriate spot to discuss this. Should there be a serious Federal AW ban in the works, you can be a thread will be tacked up at the top of this forum. Till then political threads will be moved to the appropriate forum. Right now I'm going to lock this as it's not a Technical Issue. ********************** I will finish this post by saying I do believe we have to stay vigilant, need to encourage NRA membership and activity in local firearms groups. Keep up good work, stay involved, WRITE YOUR ELECTED OFFICIALS AT ALL LEVELS WHEN YOU HAVE A CONCERN, and help keep your right to bear arms as well exercised as possible. Shane Bernskoetter Author of: Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq http://www.survivingtwilight.com

Ishmael, the converted USC is mine. For more information on the costs involved you can visit this thread on HkPro.com: http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54793 Expect about $1500 not including the cost of the USC. If you come out cheaper then be happy. Tactical Excellence is the way to go too. They did mine and Lord is it a gorgeous piece of work. On the subject of the LLC, KINNY is exactly right when he says you bypass both fingerprints and the CLEO signature. That is why it is such a hassle saver. Go for the LLC Kinny! On the subject of the company owning the firearm and not the individual, I personally consider this a benefit. I can add or remove anybody to my company officer list at any time. Also, if the worst happens and I get in a major accident and get sued for every dime I'm worth, they can't touch the SBR's because an LLC owns them, not me. One that engages in no direct to consumer business and has no income. This way these things are in a lockbox and with no income, and income tax forms never have to be filed. Want to pass them on to your kid? Put him or her as an officer of the company. Works slick. Helps with avoiding probate when you kick the bucket too by ensuring continuity. Lastly, in MO you can file the LLC to be indefinite, so it is around as long as I want it to be. Never expires unlike me. To transfer to heirs just put them in the LLC for a $25 articles of incorporation amendment fee to the state instead of a $200 transfer tax to the Feds. WINTWU, I'm not a lawyer and don't have much knowledge of Kalifornia except for the fact that due to restrictive gun laws I will never live there. Certain states limit or prohibit the acquisition and possession of NFA firearms. You'll have to talk with someone who is from CA and is a firearms law lawyer or Class 3 dealer for more information. There is an old joke with a picture attached that goes.... "The solution to Kalifornia anti gun laws." - and below it is a picture of a family packed up in a UHAUL truck driving down the highway moving to another state. Hilarious. To get back on track with the "is the 11707 going to be sold to civilians anymore?", I think everything is speculation and until you see some press release or official info of it being discontinued on the HK site, I would consider it a rumor only. Rumors are running amok for people looking at buying an HK416, with some representatives saying "we'll have a truckload at your door tomorrow free of charge for being such a great customer" to reps saying "This weapon will never again be sold anywhere on the planet and everyone who has ever asked us a question about it via email is going to be arrested and thrown in prison by the ATF." This is an exaggeration but I've heard WILDLY divergent stories on the same day from three different people in the same department! Seriously, the stuff that comes out of reps mouths is not to be trusted. Unless I see an official company letterhead note or a press release regarding intent, I take everything any customer service representative tells me as a heart tale of beardy proportions meant to make that rep feel important for "being in the know." I'm an engineer for a big company, and just because I tell my contacts at Aviation Week that my company is going to sell 100 F-22s to Iran and provide them with free pilot training means absolutely nothing. Press releases stamped APPROVED FOR RELEASE by the CEO at the top do. Don't believe everything you hear, but have a plan to buy everything you need. Now. Heh heh. Shane Bernskoetter Author of: Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq http://www.survivingtwilight.com

Pamat, once the M4 is registered as an SBS, you are free to swap parts and barrels on it as you wish. It becomes a verified NFA registered weapon that is exempt from the 922r restrictions of X number of US parts on the weapon, and also allows you to put any length of barrel you desire on it - be it 2.5 inches or 32.5. People often say it severely limits your resellability, this is complete nonsense and is typically stated by people who have never actually gone through with the SBS or SBR process. If you leave it as an SBS and try to sell it, the only drawback is that the buyer must pay $200 to transfer it to their name. The 30-90 day wait will also apply. However, if you should decide to sell the M4 and don't want to sell it as an SBS, then simply draft a letter to the ATF NFA branch stating you wish the weapon to be removed from the NFA registry as it is being returned to its original factory configuration. Enclose a copy of the Form 1 you submitted to make the weapon and within a month or so you'll have your serial number wiped from the registry and your M4 will once again simply be a civvy standard M4. Before you send the letter you will need to restore your weapon to its original status (eg.- 18.5" barrel, regular non collapsible stock, etc.). With this done, you now have your M4 back to a regular Joe shotgun and you can sell it accordingly. Take those cool components you used for the SBS version and sell them on Gunbroker.com or another site to reclaim your investment. This way, you have to eat the $200 initial registration fee to make the thing an SBS, but it may be very worthwhile to allow faster and easier selling in case you have to *GASP!!!* sell your shotgun. In my opinion the $200 is a wash, you can blow that at the range in ammo in a weekend. Big deal. In Missouri, the CEO of a Limited Liability Corporation can approve their own Form 1 requests. Fill out the entire front side of the form and down in Block 9 the head of the LLC (which is me when I set it up with the state) signs their name, then in Block 10 the LLC head prints their name and title. Lastly, date the form in Block 11. By filling this part out, the LLC head approves the form and this completely skips the need for any Block 13 CLEO certification. If you don't go the LLC route, then you'll have to get your town or county sheriff to sign the form, and they will also have to take your fingerprints on a specific card. I've not done this before but if you have an understanding, level headed, non-Kool Aid sipping CLEO, then good for you. Consider yourself lucky. The reason I tout the LLC route as well is because since the LLC "owns" the weapon, then any officer of the company can be in possession of the weapon at any time. This way you can put your wife, dad, brother, whoever you trust down as an officer of your company when you file. I did this so in case I leave for a year deployment and my wife wants to go out and shoot one of my Class 3 weapons or transport them, she's completely legit and doesn't have to worry about running into a gray area of possessing or transporting some weapon owned by a specifically named individual. She's an officer of the LLC and has full rights to the weapon just like me. Period. You can access a Form 1 from the ATF website here: www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf One thing I haven't mentioned yet and something that caused my brother's Form 1 to be denied was that in MO, an LLC must possess either a FFL or a Curios & Relics license in order to have a Form 1 approved. There was no way he or I was going to get an FFL since we had no intention of getting into the business of selling guns and maintaining a storefront. The C&R is a very watered down FFL that costs about $30 for a 3 year period. In a nutshell, the process looks like this for what I went through in MO to get my first SBR: 1. Form a Limited Liability Corporation (LLC) with the state. Make sure you are listed as one of the officers/heads of the company when filing. 2. Apply for a C&R license USING THE LLC AS THE APPLICANT. The form is a ATF Form 7CR I believe. 3. Once the C&R license is approved, fill out your Form 1. If you don't use a Form 1 sent to you by the ATF and instead print one off the net, make sure you print the form using both sides of a single sheet or the ATF will kick it back! Send 2 copies of this form, 2 Certification of Compliance forms (www.titleii.com/pdf/5330-20.pdf), 2 articles of incorporation and your $200 check to the ATF. Once the ATF has all this, typical turn around time for a first Form 1 is about 2 months. Subsequent Form 1's can be as little as three weeks. I think it is a very misunderstood process that once a list of steps is created, suddenly makes the process like any other bureaucratic government process - easily capable of being accomplished by 99% of citizens if they only had the steps to follow! I strongly suggest the www.HkPro.com website. On there are tons of people discussing this exact same issue (SBR and SBS process). It serves as a great resource because whether you are making an SBR or an SBS it is all the same steps. Once you get your first Class 3 Short barrelled weapon, there is no stopping you! Just as a bit of a tease, here is a picture of the USC to UMP conversion that popped my Form 1 SBR cherry! http://www.survivingtwilight.com/firearms.html I hope this answered most of your questions, I'm happy to provide any help I can to demistify the NFA short barrelling process. Let me know if you need any further info if you can't locate it on HkPro.com! Sincerely, Shane Bernskoetter Author of: Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq http://www.survivingtwilight.com

MrMilitaryPolice man has hit the nail on the head with the comment about the ATF being spastic. I will provide this warning to any of you thinking that a letter to another person from the ATF regarding the Benelli M4, 922r and parts count..... That document won't mean crap diddly umpsquat in court, and just because the ATF individual that counted parts can't count correctly in an official document, don't think for a minute that you can't or won't get nailed because of it. I agree with MrMilitaryPolice man about the slim possibility of the ATF knocking on your door, but the fact remains that the laws do exist and the ATF is notorious for "reinterpreting" opionions. The recent barrel ban for my precious G36C is just one such example. Suddenly and out of the blue in September 2005 the ATF says, "All these nonsporting guns can no longer have the barrels imported, by anybody for any reason." Suddenly, the price of G36C demilled kits and other semi rare to begin with sub guns suddenly shot up! Just look at the whole disaster of trying to procure a 14" entry barrel for our precious M4. Gads, it makes me sad. I've said it in a number of other threads, but to sleep well at night it only requires a $200 Form 1 to the ATF and a month or so wait. I was spooked about the whole Form 1 process but after doing UMP-USC and PS90 SBR conversions with my LLC as the signee, all hesitation is gone. The LLC was the best $100 I've ever spent. (Except the $93 I spent on a temporary cubic zirconium 1 carat ring with chincy white gold band for my fiancee after blowing $4000 on a Blaser LRS2 setup days before! Good thing I recovered quickly, got a real one identical to it months later and switched the rings out with nobody the wiser. I felt like a professional jewel thief! Ha ha ha!) Hope you all have a great one! Sincerely, Shane Bernskoetter Author of: Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq http://www.survivingtwilight.com

I just wanted to pass on a thanks to you folks on this forum for providing a good sounding ground for tons of information about the Benelli M4. I was interested in purchasing one the first time I saw a picture of one back when it was being tested by the Marine corps. Was I ever a happy camper when I found out it was being released to the civilian market! Anyway, just last October I purchased a model 11707 and sweet lord is that thing ever awesome! Thanks to you all here and a few other sources I determined that the 11707 was the only way to fly! I've said it in another forum, but to get around the possible 922r infractions, I strongly urge you to seriously consider bucking up another $200 and a month of waiting to send off a Form 1 to the ATF to register your M4 as a short barrelled shotgun. (SBS) IMO, this $200 investment (if allowed in your state) goes a long way in making me sleep like a baby knowing that all the bells and whistles I want to put on it (regardles of their origin) are completely and totally kosher. Thanks again to all you here on the boards. Happy shooting! Sincerely, Shane Bernskoetter Author of: Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq http://www.survivingtwilight.com