Benelli M4, who uses it?

[Guest cleefurd]

I think from reading the stats regarding the CC and FFT tube, FFT is using a higher grade Ti.

 

Which stats would that be? The only ones given in FFT's descriptions reference weight and tensile strength. The titanium alloy they should/probably use (since they appear knowlegable), would be 3AL-2.5V, a titanium- aluminum-vanadium alloy that has yet to be rivalled in aerospace applications where thin walled light-weight, corrosion proof, resilient tubing is required. This is the grade carriercomp uses.

 

In fairness, titanium for all its merit, is not without drawbacks. True 3/2.5 ti alloy achieves 130ksi, but if tensile strength alone is the aim, consider steel, preferably normalized 4130 chromoly steel which yields between 100ksi to 140KSI for alloys such as columbus nivachrome, 175ksi for heat treated 4130 up to 200ksi range for air hardening steels such as Reynolds 853 or True Temper Platinum OX. When we made them from steel, we ( carriercomp )utilized 4130 for its compromize between machinability and hi-end mechanical properties. Conversely 12L14 while wonderfully simple to machine, and a sound choice, significantly sacrifices structural potential, even heat treated, the high lead content (which lends to its machining ease) diminishes its potential to levels far beneath BOTH titanium 3/2.5 and any of the afore-mentioned steel candidates.

 

So why did I commit to titanium? It was required at a fair price by a unit who asked me for it. Why did they want it? To save weight every where they could, with zero corrosion maintenance, ample strength, and because they knew me. Why don't I answer my phone? I WANT to darnit, but I am forever fine-tuning new products until they are un-beatable, and I have orders to fill for a wide variety of products !! Anyone who has "reached" me KNOWS I love to talk. So I put myself on phone detention while I get caught up.

Edited April 27, 2010 by cleefurd

[texas skeeter]

allright Cleefurd, there ya go again talking about rocket science!! while i await one of your beautiful springs for my homemade black-iron pipe mag tube .

[h.bowman]

Which stats would that be? The only ones given in FFT's descriptions reference weight and tensile strength. The titanium alloy they should/probably use (since they appear knowlegable), would be 3AL-2.5V, a titanium- aluminum-vanadium alloy that has yet to be rivalled in aerospace applications where thin walled light-weight, corrosion proof, resilient tubing is required. This is the grade carriercomp uses.

 

In fairness, titanium for all its merit, is not without drawbacks. True 3/2.5 ti alloy achieves 130ksi, but if tensile strength alone is the aim, consider steel, preferably normalized 4130 chromoly steel which yields between 100ksi to 140KSI for alloys such as columbus nivachrome, 175ksi for heat treated 4130 up to 200ksi range for air hardening steels such as Reynolds 853 or True Temper Platinum OX. When we made them from steel, we ( carriercomp )utilized 4130 for its compromize between machinability and hi-end mechanical properties. Conversely 12L14 while wonderfully simple to machine, and a sound choice, significantly sacrifices structural potential, even heat treated, the high lead content (which lends to its machining ease) diminishes its potential to levels far beneath BOTH titanium 3/2.5 and any of the afore-mentioned steel candidates.

 

So why did I commit to titanium? It was required at a fair price by a unit who asked me for it. Why did they want it? To save weight every where they could, with zero corrosion maintenance, ample strength, and because they knew me. Why don't I answer my phone? I WANT to darnit, but I am forever fine-tuning new products until they are un-beatable, and I have orders to fill for a wide variety of products !! Anyone who has "reached" me KNOWS I love to talk. So I put myself on phone detention while I get caught up.

 

Thanks for chiming in, as I do not know about metals and obviously you do. And as I said, aside from the use of Cerakote, that appeared to be the only other difference.

[Guest cleefurd]

I think from reading the stats regarding the CC and FFT tube, FFT is using a higher grade Ti.

... who also wrote;

Thanks for chiming in, as I do not know about metals and obviously you do. And as I said, aside from the use of Cerakote, that appeared to be the only other difference.

Your "chiming" is appreciated as well.

So there we have it. Your knowledge of metals seems to have depth from your scrutiny of the gas pistons, thus my head scratching since you were singing praises in one particular direction based loosely on non-specific stats from a non-descript account....you think.

 

So the "apparent difference", disparity, shortcoming, or other perceived inferiority of vendor "A" vs "B" with respect to metallurgy grade(s) may now then be considered moot until better scrutiny of the anonymous stats are clarified.

Fair 'nuff.

[h.bowman]

... who also wrote;

 

Your "chiming" is appreciated as well.

So there we have it. Your knowledge of metals seems to have depth from your scrutiny of the gas pistons, thus my head scratching since you were singing praises in one particular direction based loosely on non-specific stats from a non-descript account....you think.

 

So the "apparent difference", disparity, shortcoming, or other perceived inferiority of vendor "A" vs "B" with respect to metallurgy grade(s) may now then be considered moot until better scrutiny of the anonymous stats are clarified.

Fair 'nuff.

 

I believe my scrutiny of the pistons had nothing to do with the strength or the metal used, or the craftsmanship - it was purely a liability issue for me. So I'm not sure how that plays into this discussion.

 

Also, I never said that CC was "inferior" to FFT because of the strength of the Ti used. Or at least I didn't mean to infer that it was truely inferior, as I always qualified the comment, which I think I've said twice before, that the possibility that once you get into Ti for the use in mag tubes it likely doesn't matter. So there was no true claim that one was superior to the other, just a possibility that this was so. And, you cleared that up. I didn't put myself out there as an expert on the subject and I never have.

 

At one point you did have stats up on your site that your tubes had a tensile strength of 115,000 psi. FFT says their tubes have a tensile strength of 130,000 psi. That is all I went by, and from that I assumed they *may* be using a higher grade of Ti, and I stated that either I may be wrong or it may not matter. Of course, you have removed that stat and changed the grade of Ti you use. Which is fine. In the end, I really don't care, but those old numbers on your site is what I went by.

 

So you can relax, because I don't have an axe to grind, which seems to be what you think by your last post. As it stands, I try to be as fair to all vendors as humanly possible. As I've stated earlier, I think it is great that finally a few vendors are focusing on some specialized parts for this firearm, and I hope all do well. Which is really the main reason why I ever add any comments on this issue in the first place. I want all the vendors who appear to be adding parts to their offerings to do well - it is good for us as consumers. I want you to do well, FFT to do well, and Dave's to do well. I'm unaware of any more vendors at this time aside from GGG and Mesa, which do not seem focused on the M4.

 

And I hope to see more 922r compliant parts offered. Including the pistons. Like I said in that thread, I'd hate a liability issue to financially ruin a guy tinkering in his garage.

Edited April 27, 2010 by h.bowman

[Guest cleefurd]

I believe my scrutiny of the pistons had nothing to do with the strength or the metal used, or the craftsmanship - it was purely a liability issue for me. So I'm not sure how that plays into this discussion.

 

 

At one point you did have stats up on your site that your tubes had a tensile strength of 115,000 psi. ...but those old numbers on your site is what I went by.

 

And I hope to see more 922r compliant parts offered. Including the pistons. Like I said in that thread, I'd hate a liability issue to financially ruin a guy tinkering in his garage.

 

My keyboard has bad posture I guess. I never thought you were grinding an axe. I'm just catchin' up on the gossip.

 

I do think it odd that just yesterday you said you had no idea anyone other than FT was making Ti mmag tubes, while eluding now to some distant past erroneous statistic from one of my sites as it pertained to our Ti-Tubes.

(perhaps a typo where ever you surely read it).

 

This is all enlightenning and I do appreciate any offer to help me locate dis-information propogated by me, especially the "115,000ksi/psi" err. No journal or eng/handbook ever lists this grade Ti-alloy at above or below 130ksi, and it is the only grade Ti carriercomp has ever utilized for this purpose. As for the associative connection between piston failure/potential and any other components strengths/weaknesses... your astute observation linking liabilities to relevant metal limitations lead me to conclude you knew they have to be built right.

 

I'll keep my eye open for that typo within our on line data streams, if I find it I owe you one.

[h.bowman]

My keyboard has bad posture I guess. I never thought you were grinding an axe. I'm just catchin' up on the gossip.

 

I do think it odd that just yesterday you said you had no idea anyone other than FT was making Ti mmag tubes, while eluding now to some distant past erroneous statistic from one of my sites as it pertained to our Ti-Tubes.

(perhaps a typo where ever you surely read it).

 

This is all enlightenning and I do appreciate any offer to help me locate dis-information propogated by me, especially the "115,000ksi/psi" err. No journal or eng/handbook ever lists this grade Ti-alloy at above or below 130ksi, and it is the only grade Ti carriercomp has ever utilized for this purpose. As for the associative connection between piston failure/potential and any other components strengths/weaknesses... your astute observation linking liabilities to relevant metal limitations lead me to conclude you knew they have to be built right.

 

I'll keep my eye open for that typo within our on line data streams, if I find it I owe you one.

 

Out of fairness to you, and I thought about this when I typed it, that I could be wrong about the 115,000 psi. I know I read that somewhere in regard to Ti tubes, and it may have even been here - the forums that is.

 

And no, I've known you were doing Ti tubes since you arrived on scene. You would have to be deaf, dumb and blind to miss information on your Ti tubes on this forum.

 

Anyway, I'm glad you have commented on these few things. There is nothing worse than misinformation or a misunderstanding.

 

Ok - I've got to get some work done now. But thanks for talking with me.

[Guest cleefurd]

Jinx! I have to work too. More soon Sir.

[thefitter]

This one is the closest to an actual OEM full length tube IMO, works perfect, looks correct and it's priced right.

 

http://www.davesmetalworks.com/

[Super33]

So I got my Kip's tube yesterday. Waited a total of 2 and a half weeks from the time I placed the order until it was in my hand. Compared to the waiting times I've been hearing about this was much better than expected.

[Super33]

Kip's tube is installed. What a PAIN getting that stock tube off!! And what a great feeling checking off the tube from my M4 to do list.

[Hookster]

Congrats Super33! Aren't they nice! What's next on your list?

 

Hookster

[Super33]

Congrats Super33! Aren't they nice! What's next on your list?

 

Hookster

 

Needless to say I'm very happy with my new tube. I've ordered a set of Meprolight night sights a week and a half ago and they've yet to arrive. They should be here any day now, the tracking number is giving me the same ol' "electronic shipping info received" stuff and I'm getting a bit frustrated by that. After that I'll be looking into a light, I'm thinking of the Surefire X400 or waiting for the m720. There's a mount I can get that'll mount it directly to the mag tube. I was also considering a Mesa 6 shot receiver mount but that can wait till the end since it's pretty low on my priority list. Also, I'm waiting for Carriercomp to start selling their hybrid bolt handles, I'll be getting one of those for sure. I have a Specter Gear sling already. Any other suggestions or must haves for my M4?

[taylaboy]

One of the "Must Haves" for me was the Oversized Bolt Release. I think the Majority of the guys on here have them slapped on the M4. There are a few different styles, but I put the GG&G on mine. But like everything in life...its just personal taste!

[Hookster]

Needless to say I'm very happy with my new tube. I've ordered a set of Meprolight night sights a week and a half ago and they've yet to arrive. They should be here any day now, the tracking number is giving me the same ol' "electronic shipping info received" stuff and I'm getting a bit frustrated by that. After that I'll be looking into a light, I'm thinking of the Surefire X400 or waiting for the m720. There's a mount I can get that'll mount it directly to the mag tube. I was also considering a Mesa 6 shot receiver mount but that can wait till the end since it's pretty low on my priority list. Also, I'm waiting for Carriercomp to start selling their hybrid bolt handles, I'll be getting one of those for sure. I have a Specter Gear sling already. Any other suggestions or must haves for my M4?

 

Sounds good Super! I run the Mepros and Specter Gear slings too. How are you planning to mount your switch for your light? Here's my light / switch mount:

 

 

 

The GG&G bolt release is something I'll be picking up at some point too. I'll probably get it when Kip gets his Hybrid handle out and put them on together.

 

Later,

 

Hookster

[h.bowman]

+1 on the GGG bolt release pad. Love it.

 

+1 on the Meprolight tritium inserts. Love 'em.

[Super33]

That's a nice setup Hookster! I'm not sure what I plan on doing with the switch yet, I just recently started looking into lights so I haven't decided yet. I do know I want to keep it simple.