Shell Carriers and other Tacticool stuff

[m4p226n]

Did I write anything about shell carriers or anything else of your mall ninja stuff?

Oh boy, this is getting better by the second. But...since you asked...here you go Mr. Tacticool:

 

From the thread Meprolight for M4 question

I do have an aimpoint micro t1, but I want a backup. That's why I want night sights.

From the thread any news on carriercomp's tactical charging handle?

how about carriercomp.com?Did you see these already?

From the thread Titanium SBS Length Mag Tubes in Stock

anyone using the King Armory breacher choke? does it really reduce muzzle flash?

From the thread C-Stocks Back in Stock?

Are there any other differences between the 07, 17 and 24? If so, how do I find out which one I have?

LOL. A breacher choke? Really?

 

So you got your tactical light, your tactical collapsing stock, your tactical charging handle and best of all, your Tactical Breacher.

 

Sorry to have to embarrass you, but be careful where you throw down gauntlets...you may just get slapped. And by all means...be careful breaching those doors!

[xamoel]

Oh, I didn't say I never wrote about that, but not in this thread.

 

And believe me, I don't find it the last bit embarassing to let everyone know that I have an Aimpoint Micro T-1 backed up with night sights.

 

Maybe you can explain why a great quality aftermarket charging handle is not something worth buying? In you infinite wisdom you can surely tell me, why that tiny OEM handle has to be kept.

 

A C-stock, WOW, how mall-ninjaesque. As years have passed, collapsible stocks have become the standard of ARs, and I enjoy it on my shottie even more, as not many shotguns feature them.

 

Where did you read that I have a tactical light yet? I don't, as I'm not allowed one where I live. Though if it was legal, it'd buy one right away. Nothing embarassing about that, me thinks.

 

A mod choke with good looks? OH NO!

 

You might just get your head out of your a*ss, and acknowledge that the time of double-barreled shotguns is long gone, along with your youth and virilty. Sorry paps.

 

Oh, and you really shine in using the search function. Did your grandkids (Strange that Darwin didn't kick in here) teach you that?

[m4p226n]

I know where you stand. You know where I stand. I'll just let our posts speak for themselves and allow folks to draw their own conclusions.

[m4p226n]

Rob,

I spent the better part of an hour putting together a detailed answer to your post. When I submitted it, it timed out and everything I wrote was lost.

 

I will summarize very quickly. Louis Awerbuck wrote a book titled 'The Defensive Shotgun: Techniques & Tactics', which I highly recommend. If you can find it, you will see that he is on the cover with a pump shotgun. I am a longtime member of Brian Enos' forum, and you are apparently not aware of the many complaints that competitive shotgun shooters have about the malfunctions of their semiautos. All else being equal, semiautos are faster, so competitors use them. Of course you are correct about that. But what you neglect to acknowledge is that when you're shooting for a ribbon you can readily risk the possibility of your lightning-fast, highly modified semi failing, but you do not have that luxury when your life is on the line. That is one reason that the most common shotgun used by law enforcement is the Remington 870. I happen to have a Rem 870 Police myself. Check out Wilson Combat's site. Note that the only 3 shotguns that they offer are PUMPS.

 

As to who provided my training, I've had a number of instructors, but my 3 favorite instructors are:

Hershel Davis, USN SEAL Command Master Chief (Ret.), Gunsite, Class 260 Tactical Shotgun (I earned Marksman). If you'd like I can provide you with a photo of Hershel and me at Gunsite. You'd like it because I'm holding my M1S90 that I used in the class.

Al Clark, USN SEAL (Ret.), former director of training, Blackwater Training Center and lead instructor of my tactical shotgun course. He signed my certificate if you require proof.

Dale McLellan, USN SEAL (Ret.), current CEO of Special Tactical Services, formerly of Blackwater Training Center, assistant instructor of my shotgun class

 

It may interest you to know that Al and Dale used a base model 870 to instruct our class, and they tore us up on the ranges despite the fact that we were using semis. They jokingly called our M1S90s 'ninja guns'.

 

Clint Smith and others in the business have stated the obvious fact that it is the man, not the tool.

 

I hope this provides clarification for you.

[Rob72]

Thank you, that answers a great deal. I'll be blunt: pumps are generally poor-shooter-stoopid-proof. This is the same reason that 90-odd percent of police departments carried revos until the early '90s. Revos have/had significant failures also, but they were familiar...

 

I also agree- it is the shooter, not the tool. Just like auto shottys, auto-pistols do not tolerate poor technique or light loads well.

 

I think we may have become lost in the auto-pump angle, but in reference to lighting, Awuerbuck, Givens, et al, are strongly in favor of appropriately used lighting. I'm not sure if Todd308 is the Todd I'm familiar with, but in either case, he summarized "current philosophy and usage":

Light: this is a must have for a defensive shotgun, besides being able to ID targets in the dark you gain the ability to stun/blind while you ID them. You want the smallest unit you can get, it's less weight and less likely to get caught on stuff. I personally like the surefire X300 style lights, compact and light. You also want a pressure switch somewhere you don't have to mess with it. It doesn't have to be super bright, anything over 100 lumens will do the job, too bright especially in closed areas with white walls and all you do is blind yourself.

[m4p226n]

Yes Rob, I agree that very knowledgable folks advocate using a light. I used to use one, I don't use one now, but who knows...I may use one in the future. I try not to allow myself to get too attached to any particular sacred cow as far as techniques/tactics go because things are dynamic and I'm willing to change when the facts dictate so.

Have a good day.

[Broken Legend]

The best thing to have in a bad situation is a firearm that goes bang. Pump and semi auto is up to the user, but in the big picture it really doesn't matter that much. One well placed shot usually fixes most situations.

 

Disparaging someone because they do or don't like to trick out their guns should be beneath us. If you can still aim it and pull the trigger, it's all good.

 

I myself have been hesitant to buy shell carriers because of the cost of some of the systems and because of the weight of some of the ones I've looked at. I've nearly decided to buy a shell carrier that fits on Molle webbing to go on my Molle vest for when I go shooting with friends. It's pretty cool but it would be embarrassing at the same time and I figure that's the mall ninja coming through loud and proud, but I could care less. If it works, it works.

 

Mall ninjas going crazy with the vest shell carrier I want: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxN_r-Lk_RU

[drmarc]

I notice in the video that the one fella is having quite a time with ejecting spent shells from his pump shotgun.

[m4p226n]

I notice in the video that the one fella is having quite a time with ejecting spent shells from his pump shotgun.

drmarc, yes there is no doubt that shotguns can be short-stroked and malfunction...I've seen it numerous times, have probably done it myself.

 

Having shot both semis and pumps however, and being somewhat proficient, I can tell you without hesitation that my semis have failed a magnitude of order more times than my pumps. Most of my semis have been either Benelli M1S90s or M4s. I've also owned numerous Berettas. The only pumps I've owned have been 870s of various types.

 

The thing about semis is that they can be sensitive to ammo, added weight from accessories, amount of lube, whether they're clean or dirty, and even the type of stock (e.g. pistol grips seem to result in more failures than straight stocks due to the absorption of some of the recoil by the hand, with inertia-operated weapons). Pumps are not sensitive whatsoever to ammo or weight, they type of stock on them, and even if the action is dry and filthy it can still virtually always be racked.

 

OTOH, as someone has very correctly noted already, pumps are more prone to operator error due to short stroking. A person that has never fired a gun before can pull the trigger on a semi and in all likelihood it will result in a bang. A person that has never shot a pump before is more likely to short stroke it, thus hearing a click instead of a bang. Therefore for a newbie, I'd recommend a quality semi.

[drmarc]

Thanks for the reply.

 

It seems he was having to eject with more force than I would think necessary on those "stuck" hulls. I have pump shotguns but have shot them little and am in no way shape or form "proficient" with them. With that said I've never had issues like what he appears to be having.

 

I recently purchased a M4 and a M2 field so I'm expanding my horizons...

[m4p226n]

Here are a couple of threads you might want to take a look at regarding issues with the benelli:

 

http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17121

 

http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13756

[drmarc]

Thanks again but I'm not sure why you linked those posts for me to read. I'm not making any case for semi vs pump or Benelli vs any other brand, just was curious about what was occurring in the video.

 

Appreciate the links none the less. It's good to know as much about personally owned weapons as you can.

Edited March 4, 2011 by drmarc
spell like 3rd grader...

[m4p226n]

Oh...when I said 'you' I meant it as a generic 'you' since we're talking about such things on this thread. Sorry...no offense intended.

[twowheelhooligan]

Sorry folks, but as I admittedly skim-read the posts, I don't believe I read any mention of this use of the saddle carrier.

 

In LE work, the tube has traditionally been filled with buckshot, with room to insert one or two more rounds. In the saddle(or Speedfeed stock on most of the REM 870's) slug loads were placed in there.

 

So, intent of the saddle/shell holders wherever you care to place them, is for swapping out of shells. Let us use the example of say a high risk traffic stop. Goofy one comes out, deadly force required, BOOM, goofy two comes out with hostage - circumstances allow, insert a slug, and/or combat load a slug to chamber thus ejecting the chambered buck-shot and you now have a .72" hole for which to be accountable vs. a 3-5" spread of nine(9) .32" projectiles.

 

As for pumps vs. autos, Benelli vs Remington vs Mossberg, WHO F-ing CARES!!! I love my Benellis, have two. I had a Rem 870, just didn't like it as much as my Ben M4, so I sold it. Our US Military uses or has used Mossberg and the Ben M4 is a USMC weapon if I'm not mistaken.

 

All comes down to maintenance and the Murphy's Law mechanical glitches that CAN and WILL occur. That is why I train and train and train with malfunction drills and dummy rounds. ANYONE can shoot a gun that constantly goes bang. MANY people stop and look at their gun with the "DUH" look when it goes click. I hope to GOD you're(anyone reading this) not the latter. Besides, if you train with some "clicks" it just means more range time for you!

 

Anyway, I think this thread has gone wayward of the OP in this thread. Just my humble $.02.

 

Have a great weekend! And for Pete’s sake, GO OUT AND SHOOT!!

 

2-Wheel