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Benelli M4 -- Weapon light mounting Options Suck!


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Hey SD,

That second switch seems much more usable. As bm4sbs mentioned, one concern is the size of the circuit board if you want to separate the switches. I also can’t tell if the pushbutton is mechanically maintained or if it has a chip for that. For the momentary, you could use a tact switch (or another solution entirely) for a smaller footprint. The packaged functionality of a tape switch is nice, it just depends on your goals.

 

 

Another idea for constant-on or negligent light discharges is a mechanical solution, such as a maintained pushbutton (tall), a toggle (prickly), slider (could compliment your bolt release), or a rocker somewhere novel. I mention these solutions not as my first picks, but because you never know what someone might like to go with.

 

 

Why crimp connections? There are pros and cons to different methods, I’m just curious about your thoughts.

 

 

Edit: apparently I left the bold on too long...

Edited by rival879
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Good idea. I had contacted a few guys that do custom flashlight mods on CPF. I haven't found anyone with the time to do a custom setup like this yet. :(

 

I’m a little surprised you haven’t tackled this yourself yet. You seem to have the knowledge and know-how, and it seems that the solution can be rather simple. I would use a couple of cut-down prototype boards, some small gauge wire, a few tact switches, and go to town.

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I’m a little surprised you haven’t tackled this yourself yet. You seem to have the knowledge and know-how, and it seems that the solution can be rather simple. I would use a couple of cut-down prototype boards, some small gauge wire, a few tact switches, and go to town.

 

 

I can map it out how the boards work, etc... but I am afraid someone that has done this more than me would end up executing it better because they will have ideas from experience - such as your idea to bar the buttons, avoiding a need for a relay (which could fail, etc)....

 

I want the buttons build into a set of FFT handguards. A set of buttons on each half.

 

Would you be interested in attempting this? Even if in part say the boards and switches? Not a free hobby job either, I am willing to pay.

 

1) Button Clusters Built

2) Fitting them to Handguards. (May require milling or at least very careful dremel)

3) Designing some sort of covering for the buttons.

3) Replacing a Clicky Tail Cap guts with material to accept a external wire input to turn on an existing flashlight.

 

Even if you know someone from CPF or otherwise that you think might be interested....

Edited by bm4sbs
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That locktite epoxy is awesome stuff. When it hardens, it's about as hard as glass. It's easy to file and shape. The mount along with the rest of my junk should be half way to Florida by now. The mount is being Cerakoted black to prevent any rusting.You can slap some cold blue on it after you make your cuts.

 

What I had missed was I thought you cut off the portion of the Blam with the center screw hole, so I thought your .5 inch drilled hole was further over. Now I see the epoxy, that's awesome. Thank you. Can't wait to see your cerakoted rig.

 

For the Klaurus switch, I suspect there are no electronics in the tailcap. I bet the switch probably just closes the same circuit back before it goes into the wire loom, so there are likely only two wires. At worst there are four. Regardless, since you are not using a Klarus light, that I know of, you don't need the electronics in the cap. You need the switches, that are without a doubt there.

 

I would get one, not sure how much they are. and take close look at the tailcap. If my suspicion is right you will have two electrical contact points in it which you can demonstrate to close with a 10 dollar meter when you hit either switch. Cut the tail cap off and check your wires with the meter...

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I got my Blam4 modified with a QD. The Noveske is out of stock everywhere. I had a IWC one already for another project, so i fitted it. I do like the anti-rotation due to the proximity of other features. I did have a tiny bit of clearance issues with the IWC on the back side of the blam4. As it has barely enough clearance, in fact I think it contacts the metal directly underneath it when I have the IWC fasterners tightened down. One may solve this by putting a small washer (also painted) on the front side to pull the whole QD a tad bit further out. If drilled properly, I don't think this would have any disadvantages. I am still considering doing so.

 

Edit: Or I guess you can bend it slightly to give clearance. Duhr...

 

u6Y4BjU.png

 

 

Thanks for all the input and help.

 

I did have a **** of a time drilling the hole larger, as the bits would wobble in the original hole. I quickly decided that for the bits had, I would need a press to do it correctly. I don't have one so I opted to fill all holes with epoxy and bake cure it, then drill. this allowed the bit to bite in and remain centered.

 

I was being pretty darn impatient. Especially given it's basically a $55 piece of stamped and bent metal by the time I get to using it. Anyway... no way I was going to make it through waiting for things to dry. I not only bake cured the epoxy but the primer and enamel as well. Turned out to be pretty fun to do it that way.

 

Now onto the rear QD Cup.

 

I am going to pull the grip today and take it apart so I have a better understanding of it. Hopefully order some parts shortly thereafter.

 

I did notice there were different magpul qd cups. Some look long, there is one on brownells that looks short. I may end up ordering that along with the IWC to evaluate the options.

 

wT00M0S.png

 

I am also going to pull the Ace Mfg QD Cup off my AK and take some measurements.

 

What I would ideally like to do thread the internals of the grip and the retainer if possible. So a screw that fits into the qd cup - see the magpul shown above, will thread into the grip and retainer all from one side. Other option will be to drill them out larger and use a nut of some type.

Edited by bm4sbs
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Okay so I took the PG apart. I see the only part that is metal is the nut retaining piece which is pinned in place? For some reason, I kept thinking there was steel or metal core molded into the grip itself.

 

So If I do this without a nut, that metal retainer will need to be threaded and a screw big enough to thread into it will be required. Another way it may be possible without drilling the other side of the grip to accept a screw head or nut is to drill the metal retainer to accept a small nut on the opposite side, glue it in place, slip the hole thing back in and then the screw comes in from the QD cup.

 

EDIT: Looking at the picture not sure there is enough meat on it to hold a nut.

 

 

Only metal part circled in red???

 

GlinGrf.png

 

 

 

Also, for the switch. This is what the inside of a tape switch looks like that uses surface mount tactile switches. I think there are a few other ways this can be done, i like the feel of these the best though because of the tactile feedback knowing you have depressed the switch.

 

eHuyVkA.png

 

I am thinking about taking two of these, trimming one so it has one less button, facing them up towards each other with a semi stiff spacer between and then sealing them back up inside a rubber boot.

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Awesome job on the front mount. I'm still waiting on my IWC mounts from an order from a month ago. I guess it doesn't matter since my parts are gone anyway. Im really jealous of that 14" barrel.

 

Strange that you had trouble drilling the bracket. I bought a black and decker set from Walmart that were TiN coated. I had very little trouble drilling it out by moving up about 1/8" at a time until I got to the 1/2" point.

 

 

Thankfully there are no metal parts permenantly fixed to the grip. Just that pinned plate retainer. Given that it is steel, it would certainly hold the load and would thread well. Since you're drilling out the left side to allow the QD socket to seat nearly flush with the grip, that grip core might as well be modified all the way through to the right side. Threading the plate retainer is the best route to go. Trying to cut a nut into the opposite side is going to be a pain in the ass. You'd have to drill the core out to the size of the nut, then back fill it with epoxy. The strength would be questionable in terms of torque load.

 

 

Hand tapping the plate retainer to whatever size thread you're using would be ideal. I'd then use a fastener that was long enough that it poked through to the right side to help center the retaining plate. I'd then cut the fastener so it was flush with the grip face on the right side.

 

 

You should not use the Magpul QD mount due to its size. It will poke out a lot further than you want. Using even an Uncle Mikes QD cup would be better since you don't need it to be threaded. I'd like to get something akin to the IWC mounts with the anti rotation features, but I've yet to find a good option aside from modifying the crap out of this one:

 

 

productimage-picture-rotation-limited-quick-detach-sling-236_jpg_280x280_q85.jpg[/font][/color]

Those bottom posts could be cut off to lower the QD mount. That larger outer diameter would have to be dealt with. You have two options:

1. Remove the outer lip via a lathe or putting the mount in a chuck and spin it. Then run a file on it until it's removed.

2. Drill your hole larger on the left side of the grip core. I believe it was either 0.625" or 0.688". Then back fill around the mount with epoxy. The added benefit of this is the epoxy will aid in limiting rotation.

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Interesting info about the tape switch internals. Where do you plan on mounting it? I agree that having a mechanical button is better than the typical pressure switch contacts. Regular pressure switches aren't always that reliable. Often, they are awkward to press.

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Those bottom posts could be cut off to lower the QD mount. That larger outer diameter would have to be dealt with. You have two options:

1. Remove the outer lip via a lathe or putting the mount in a chuck and spin it. Then run a file on it until it's removed.

2. Drill your hole larger on the left side of the grip core. I believe it was either 0.625" or 0.688". Then back fill around the mount with epoxy. The added benefit of this is the epoxy will aid in limiting rotation.

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

I am going to order the IWC and the shorter magpul one so I can evaluate the options. I am pretty confident the IWC mod will be fairly easy as you stated. I won't drill big and backfill, I will file it down.

 

For the teeth on the backend...I am thinking grind them down with a dremel. If not all the way off, you can leave some small nubs and make a tiny tiny pocket for it to sit in on the retainer in the grip to aid in preventing rotation is what I am thinking. We'll see.

 

I want the magpul as well in case there are unforeseen fastener issues encountered. I may need a larger diameter screw to thread into the retainer and if so, I have to find one with a head that will fit in the QD and not interfere with the male QD seating properly.

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Interesting info about the tape switch internals. Where do you plan on mounting it? I agree that having a mechanical button is better than the typical pressure switch contacts. Regular pressure switches aren't always that reliable. Often, they are awkward to press.

 

I think I am resigning myself to doing a single surface mount switch where I have the one currently. I hate the way the one that activates the laser feels. It's like squeezing a balloon. No feedback.

 

Activating the light is easy, but I want "One" button to activate both.

 

Building into the from hand guards is going to be a project that requires things over my head. For one I think I need a mill to make pockets properly. Those boards in the switch I pictures are razor thin, building a custom one on a proto board would leave me with a thick switch. And the pistons push right up to the point the handguards taper up front so there isn't a ton of space under the guards where I would need to mount the buttons, etc.

 

That switch pictured by the way is a Solarforce switch, you can get them cheap.

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I bet you could do the mods to the handguard. A mill isn't required. The plastic is pretty forgiving when making a pocket. It would take a few hours going slow, but you could notch a recessed pocket into the handguard where the upper forward part angles inward (where I mounted my IWC mount.) the plastic is pretty thick and grinds easily with a dremel. There is a lot of room ahead of the piston assembly. Placing the switches here will reduce accidental light discharges. It's also the perfect place for your thumb.

 

You seem handy with the electronics. Could you use two solarforce switches? One for your light and another for the laser? Then shorten the switch boards contacts so there is only one or two of those contacts each. Then put the switches next to each other in the pocket. Then find a thin piece of metal to bridge over the top of the contacts so when you press down, it essentially activates both switches. You could also just bridge the two center points so essentially there would be three switching options.

Forward contact = Light Only

Second and Third Bridged Contact = Light and Laser

Forth (rear) Contact = Laser Only

 

This would avoid needing to set any relays between the switches.

 

I'm still envisioning what method to use to retain the bridge and how to cover the switches. You could bed and seal the switch into the handguard with epoxy. It ends up being a hard smooth shell that you can shape by filing or sanding. When applying, it is in liquid form, so you can allow gravity to make a relatively even surface.

 

Skill could come up with a cleaner install. You'd have to mount the PCB from the backside of the handguard, then just cut holes for silicon buttons to press through the handguard like this:

 

Silicone_keypad_key_design.jpg

basically, the handguard would keep the silicon buttons captive against the PCB. Depending on if you sealed the PCB in epoxy, and the edges around the activation point, the assembly would remain water resistant.

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haha. Perfect timing. I was out a birthday party with my little girl and we were all playing with play-doh.

 

Anyway, it reminded me of Sugru and it clicked in my head. One of the problems with a custom switch molded into the guards is how to enclose the electronic switch. I haven't used it for anything that I wished to look like a custom molded rubber covering, but it may work.

 

 

As far as the switches, I am in fact going to use two switches, stripped, one trimmed, facing each other button side in, with a thin semi ridged strip between them. If I put that in the rubber boot they came in or a molded sugru boot on the guard, I am not sure yet. When depressed this will activate the light and the laser by closing both circuits.

 

I am thinking of making a milled bed in the handguards, or just carefully dremeled then drilling a pattern of tiny holes in it. Making a very thin bed of sugru and forcing some through the holes to secure it to the guard. The pushing the double strip of switches into the sugru. Then will have to overmold the sugru on the top.

 

This would still appear like as a surface mount tape switch but more custom and low profile.

 

The two parts that concern me is the milling of handguard. And the overmold. Both require steady hand and an artists eye. Not good for me.

Edited by bm4sbs
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The overmold is certainly the hardest part. Once you cut on the handguard, you'll find it is pretty easy. No artistic talent needed. Approach it mathematically based on the size of your switch. Height, length and width. Then determine how you are going to look your wiring. The forward part of the handguard is very thick. I used a variety of bits on a dremel to mill a place for my IWC mount. That mount was much more complicated than a switch pocket will be. I would epoxy the switch to the handguard to prevent movement. The issue is you'll be balancing a bar across those two switches. You should use a flat piece of metal to bridge the contacts. Something thin like a hacksaw blade. The bar shouldn't be just balancing in the air on the contacts. You'll need some of that Sugru along the top and bottom to support the bar. Use that Sugru material to lay over the bridge and cover the PCB. I'd then fill around the Sugru with epoxy. Basically make a shell surrounding the Sugru material. The epoxy would assist in binding the Sugru to the handguard. You can do a lot with the epoxy to hide your work. Compare my first set of pictures of my light mount to the finalized product.

 

Epoxy is clear, so after you've sanded the shape to where you want it, paint the work area with Plastic Dip. This will hide a lot of flaws.

 

I'd consider routing the wire to your right side mount through the handguard. For simplicity, I'd do the rear PCB wired through the handguard over to the right side. You could have just a simple notch to allow the wire to exit the right side of the handguard. You could epoxy wire management points along the inner surface of the handguards below the magazine tube. That way when you disassemble, you could separate the two halves relatively easily.

 

Or, you could go get yourself a Surefire X400 and mount it up. You'd end up with a light/laser in the same lightweight package.

 

Sounds like your daughter is about the same age as mine. She demands to assist with all of these projects as well!

 

My friend has a Benelli M4 set up with a weapon light on a Surefire M80. He brought it over for me to help him with a modification. I can't believe how uncomfortable that thing is to hold onto compared to the setup I put together. Not only is it lighter, but it actually feels good in my hand.

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Also, for the switch. This is what the inside of a tape switch looks like that uses surface mount tactile switches. I think there are a few other ways this can be done, i like the feel of these the best though because of the tactile feedback knowing you have depressed the switch.

 

Nice find! Those are nice and slim. You're right about a prototype board and tact switch being thicker. The only way to match that profile would be a pain as you'd have to convert a though-hole board to function with surface mount parts (or etch your own traces on a SMT board), and then place those switches yourself.

 

Good call about the keypad switches, SD. That does seem like the way to go as far as maintaining the low profile. If that's the case, you might be able to find a keypad with buttons closer together and modify that board. But that hunt could be tedious. If you do find one, it's pretty easy to cut traces and use small wires to form new ones.

 

If you do use something to bridge the buttons, double check the wiring of the switch. Some switches use the case for a contact, so a metal bridge might cause problems. Just something to think about.

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Nice find! Those are nice and slim. You're right about a prototype board and tact switch being thicker. The only way to match that profile would be a pain as you'd have to convert a though-hole board to function with surface mount parts (or etch your own traces on a SMT board), and then place those switches yourself.

 

Good call about the keypad switches, SD. That does seem like the way to go as far as maintaining the low profile. If that's the case, you might be able to find a keypad with buttons closer together and modify that board. But that hunt could be tedious. If you do find one, it's pretty easy to cut traces and use small wires to form new ones.

 

If you do use something to bridge the buttons, double check the wiring of the switch. Some switches use the case for a contact, so a metal bridge might cause problems. Just something to think about.

 

 

The boards are very thin. Almost like a sheet of laminate thin. They are flexible on the long axis.

 

What I am planning to do, a modification to your bar idea, is make a sandwich with them. The buttons facing each other inward in the sandwich with a peice of thin material between. One strip will have 4 buttons, the other the stock 5. They will line up so the buttons are between each other. When you press down both circuits are closed.

 

This is even small enough to slip back into the stock boot for these switches. Adds a little puffyness to it, but it works.

 

That's one option. The other option is to make a new cover with sugru - which is a moldable silcone.

 

other things I found when looking at sugru alternatives:

 

Versimold

 

Instamorph

 

One is moldable rubber for gaskets and the such - mold like putty, dry with heat gun. Other is hand moldable plastic - low temp, like 150 degrees.

 

I want a 3d printer some day...

 

 

Button Sammich:

 

 

UB3Twt0.png

Edited by bm4sbs
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Flexibility:

t2QHzoi.png

 

Note there are 5 buttons on these. I have one I trimmed to 4 buttons.

 

 

 

Form Fitting:

 

 

9FefW1f.jpg

 

 

 

Using these, I have a few choices:

 

1) Mounted outside the guards in a stock boot.

2) Mounted outside the guards in a custom boot.

3) Mounted outside the guards, in a milled pocket with a custom Sugru covering.

4) Mounted inside the guards - this is the most complicated.

 

The first rib you see in the guard picture marks where the piston ends on the inside. So both buttons would need to be trimmed.

 

If it were inside, I would want to have holes for a custom plastic activator to push through the handuard to depress the button. A 3d printer would be ideal to create this activator. I also need something to securely mount the buttons to be backside. Epoxy would work but it is permanent and may prevent easily fixing any issues. A hard plastic boot that is screwed to the inside would be better IMO.

 

Outside, the plastic activator would still need a sugru style covering, or something at least.

 

Eh... not sure.

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Interesting how flexible those PCB's are. The easiest route to take looks like building a sammich. However, I think you should cut both switches smaller so when you apply pressure, that load isn't being spread out across all those contacts. You might encounter some poor activation issues as a result. That top switch is going to flex when you press against it, so it's going to spread the load unevenly to the lower unit.

 

I think having two contacts per switch would provide the best feedback. It would keep the switch small and less prone to accidental light discharges.

 

There are no switches available that control two independent circuits?

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Interesting how flexible those PCB's are. The easiest route to take looks like building a sammich. However, I think you should cut both switches smaller so when you apply pressure, that load isn't being spread out across all those contacts. You might encounter some poor activation issues as a result. That top switch is going to flex when you press against it, so it's going to spread the load unevenly to the lower unit.

 

I think having two contacts per switch would provide the best feedback. It would keep the switch small and less prone to accidental light discharges.

 

There are no switches available that control two independent circuits?

 

 

There are switches called Single Throw Double Pole, but usually not at the micro level like these, Even if you found some that small you would have to mate them to a substrate which complicates matter.

 

When I press the sammich with a small amount of pressure it closes both circuits quite easily. Descriptions won't do it justice, you'd have to try it. I am happy with it. You could adjust how it spreads the load by using various materials for the separator material. Generally this is controlled by a strip sitting on top of the buttons. In this case, I don't have that much luxury due to it being a sandwich. Ideally I would have a very thing flexible strip - you see these flexible flat cables in electronics sometime, with a cluster of these switches mounted in a staggered single row, very close together closing two circuits. But I am not sure this can be done outside a factory.

 

I can cut it down to less switches. Something I am considering. Obviously requires more refined hand placement - good and bad. Obviously advantage being less risk of accidental, more risk of missing the switch. Less buttons could also be a risk to function since the buttons are redundant. Not that worried about that though.

Edited by bm4sbs
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Interesting. I'm looking forward to seeing your progress.

 

I received my AR15 9mm bolt carrier today finally after three months of waiting. Naturally, all the other parts are off being refinished, so I couldn't do much with it. So I opted to put together another load of parts to have coated at WMD Guns. Along with the BCG, I sent the disassembled 9mm heavy buffer in and the custom made 7.75" BCM chrome lined 9mm barrel that I had profiled down to 0.625". The barrel is going to be salt bath nitride coated inside and out. With the buffer, I'm doing an experiment where I'll have both the buffer and the receiver extension coated in Nickel Boron. With a blow back weapon, I'm looking to smooth out the action as much as possible.

 

 

I tore down my Glock 36 and sent in the Slide, frame rail and the aluminum back plate. They're going to do the Nickel Boron on the inside of the slide, then paint the exterior Burnt Bronze. I was going to do the Glock 19, but I need it for a class next week.

 

I tore down the AR15 MRP completely, and sent the monolithic upper, lower, receiver extension, bolt carrier group, piston and Thorntail light mount. The entire MRP upper is being Nickel Boron coated. Then they'll spray the exterior in Burnt Bronze Cerakote. The Raptor Ambidextrous charging handle, complete bolt carrier and receiver extension are being done in Nickel Boron too. The buffer is a JP Enterprises Silent Buffer. The goal is to have the upper receiver feeling like it's operating on ball bearings.

 

119.jpg

I've changed a few things since this picture. The stock is now a Magpul ACL on a PWS 416 Receiver Extension with a JP Enterprises Silent Buffer. The weapon mount was switched to a Thorntail recently. The Battle Arms Development ASS ST was recently upgraded to a CASS ST. The BCM charging handle was swapped out for a Raptor.

 

I want to swap out the LaRue mounts for absolute co-witness models. It'll save a little weight, look better and function a little better.

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Flexibility:

1) Mounted outside the guards in a stock boot.

2) Mounted outside the guards in a custom boot.

3) Mounted outside the guards, in a milled pocket with a custom Sugru covering.

4) Mounted inside the guards - this is the most complicated.

 

Those are great solutions and that sammich looks delicious. It certainly gives you the closest switch placement using a stock assembly. How thick is the board material in relation to the traces? It "might" be possible to score the back of the top board to encourage three-button clusters for StrangerDanger's idea of laser/both/light functionality. Although reading your description again, it seems too thin.

 

Just throwing ideas off the wall... Those buttons look like low-profile tact switches. Depending on how industrious you want to be, you could do some creative things with them. For example, if you are handy with epoxy and a soldering iron, you could epoxy buttons (in VERY close proximity) to a thin, flexible, plastic "board". You could then run small wires off of the switch legs to act as traces. I was thinking, just because the parts are surface-mount doesn't mean they have to be mounted to copper or FR4, provided you can access the contacts.

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Just throwing ideas off the wall... Those buttons look like low-profile tact switches. Depending on how industrious you want to be, you could do some creative things with them. For example, if you are handy with epoxy and a soldering iron, you could epoxy buttons (in VERY close proximity) to a thin, flexible, plastic "board". You could then run small wires off of the switch legs to act as traces. I was thinking, just because the parts are surface-mount doesn't mean they have to be mounted to copper or FR4, provided you can access the contacts.

 

Wow. Yea. That's certainly true. These things don't occur to me. I thought of running just wires but but then having a hard plastic cradle to hold it all. I like your idea of using a plastic substrate, very thin like a laminate w/epoxy and wires as bridges.

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I got my magpul QD in, it was still longer (.583), than the Ace QD at .500. Both have the same approximate diameter of .495.

 

The ace comes with a screw of the perfect diameter, but it is a bit short to go all the way through the retainer and hit the hole on the other side of the grip.

 

Ace:

 

http:// riflestocks.com /store/product46.html

 

I am still waiting on the IWC (Impact Weapons Components) Anti-Rotation QD Cup to ship. Once I have that I will decide between modding that one or running with the Ace.

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You should be able to hit a hardware store and buy a fastener. Since you're going to tap the retainer, you can get pretty much any screw you want.

 

I still think modifying the IWC unit would be the best solution. I was thinking about how to spin it to file down the outer edge. I was thinking about getting a fastener, and a nut. Slide the QD mount onto the fastener and push it all the way down to the head of the fastener. Then screw a nut onto the fastener and tighten it against the QD mount to lock it in place. Then put the end of the fastener into the drill chuck.

 

The head of the fastener needs to be smaller than the OD of the QD mount. Then you could spin the QD mount. I'd probably put the drill gun in a vice, then have someone pull the trigger while I hold a flat file on the raised rim of the QD mount. Keep filing until the lip has been lowered to match the half inch diameter.

 

I received a package from IWC today, but it was just some of the low profile QD mounts for my BLAM4.

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Still waiting on the IWC Rotation Limited Cup... they take forever to ship.

 

Anyway... the dual switch, my update.

 

I am going to first create a button sandwich contained in a rubber boot, then after I have that I am going to tackle an attempt to build something into the handguard.

 

For the button Sandwich, got the sugru to seal everything up, I decided to drill the switch panels and will sew them together using dental floss believe it or not. Stuff is tough and thin. Will allow me to tension everything together and hold it in place before putting in a boot.

 

Pre-drilled panels, to be laced together:

PyvxULr.jpg

 

Waiting on my new soldering gun before I solder the second switch up.

 

This is the guts of a lasermax switch. Total junk, no feedback. Now I know why.

 

BHSKe0h.jpg

 

Basically you push in and the copper comes together in the middle, you have to over come the edges, very bizarre feeling switch. Terrible feedback. Just aweful. I can't believe this was approved. I will be replacing this with my tac switch above.

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