h.bowman

And your point is?

You guys need to understand that there is a large body of law centered around the idea of "products liability." You can argue with me until you are blue in the face. Doesn't make a lick of difference who made it or who is buying it, or the reasons surrounding the deal. The exposure to liability exists, no matter what you guys say. I'm not going to argue with you. I'm right. You are wrong. And I'm not saying that in principal that I agree with my position. I'm just saying that I'm right. And you are wrong. But I guarantee you this. If one of you put those pistons in your gun and somehow, someway, that gun blows up in your face and you die from it, or become so severely disabled that you can no longer work, your family won't be in here taking your place and arguing against product liability. Instead, they'll be sitting in a lawyers office plotting the lawsuit against the guy who sold you the defective pistons. Guaranteed. That's all there is to say.

If I put a piston you make into my gun and the piston you made was defective and I were injured because of the defect, how would my suing you translate to me not taking the blame for my own actions? What would I be to blame for? This is not to say that I don't agree with you, that people don't take the blame for their own actions. But when a product fails and injures the consumer, do you think the company should not pay because it was the consumers fault? That's ridiculous. If one could CHOOSE to purchase an experimental item and therefore remove all liability from the manufacturer, then all manufacturers would label their goods as merely experimental, to shift the liability. Again, ridiculous.

I wouldn't sell pistons to any of you if I were making them. The liability isn't worth it.

Fixed, and agreed. However, I have SO much more control with a PG stock than a standard stock. A wise man once said: "Give me pistol grip. or give me death." - h.bowman

What shocks me is that it seems the Urbino keeps getting pushed back. Um, WTF?

Whether or not the pistol grip is okay in California is one of those "UM DUH" moments. You see them on the shelves of the dealers, don't ya? I've bought two M4s with pistol grips in CA, and I know several others who have too. WTF?

Steel, or Titanium? I don't know if I'll ever go full length tube. Debate it endlessly. Once that debate is settled, will I go steel or Ti? Don't know. I can make arguments for each.

Yet. I've always heard through the grapevine that they may start making M4s over here. Who knows?

Hey, that's great. I'm all for us having a bunch of choices regarding what and where to buy.

Are you just pulling his leg, or serious? Sometimes with a few of you guys its not always easy to tell.

I disagree. Who in their right mind would want to wait and wait for something that may or may not happen? Especially when there are as good or better alternatives in the marketplace? You can be a fanboy all you want. But when I want something, I want it now. Not maybe someday and having to wait with little or no information. Its one thing when there is only one person or entity making a specific part. Then you have no choice but to wait. But when alternatives exist? Pfft. Waiting is for suckers. Also, I may be old fashioned, but customer service goes a long way with me. I don't buy things from entities where customer service is the suck. I don't care how good the stuff is. Call me crazy, I still believe in customer service, even in the age of the internet.

I've not seen either Kips or FFT's titanium tube, yet. I only have the titanium charging handle from FFT and I'm thoroughly impressed. From what I can gather, FFT's tube may be a stronger titanium than Kips, but I'm not 100% sure and I'm not confident that matters once you get into Ti tubes. The weakest Ti tube may be just fine - again, I do not know it is not my area of expertise. The other difference is FFT has them in stock and you'd likely have the tube in a matter of days, and with Kip, you'll have to pray for an email answer and wait a long time to get a tube. I think there are people around here that have been waiting a loooonnggg time to get a Kip tube.

Full length mag tube: Dave's has them in steel. Don't know the status of inventory. Freedom Fighter Tactical has them in steel and titanium. I bought a charging handle from them and inquired into the inventory of the titanium tube, and they had plenty in stock two weeks ago or so. Socomguy has steel if you can make contact with him. Same for Kip and titanium, if you can make contact you might get a titanium tube someday.

Kips, FFT's, SoComGuy's, etc. I think they are all marked "Made in USA" or "USA." Because it is so important for 922r, it would be unwise for a manufacturer of this part to NOT mark it.

I'm in CA too. Been thinking about going up to a full mag tube. Strongly considering the FFT Ti tube. Bought the Ti charging handle, it is tight. Received it coast to coast in 3 days or so. But only inquired into the Ti tubes, and they have them in stock. Just don't know if I need the extra 2 capacity. When I train, I've never felt I was missing out. Hookster, you gun is off the charts.

http://www.refinedrogue.com/Content/Classic_DuckBoots.jpg

Also the ignore email ignore phone message never answer the phone game. There.is.no.excuse. Period.

I have 2 H&K. I have 2 GLOCK. I have 2 1911. I keep the 1911s, you can have the rest.

This is kinda like one of those um duh moments.

Did you get it worked out yet? I remember it being a tad tricky but I was able to install it without much trouble. Amazing the difference between the stock button and the GGG. Amazing.

If you are a technical editor, you need to read my posts with a sharper eye because you missed the whole point. I was wondering how someone such as skeeter who hasn't seen the product yet with his own two eyes could put forth such accolades. That's it. Skeeter admitted he had yet to see the product for himself. And I wasn't at all questioning Kip's product. Actually, it is irrelevant whose product I was talking about. Its all about putting forth such comments on something you have yet to see for yourself. That's it. I tend to not give props to something I have yet to experience myself. Everyone says Ruth's Chris has the best steak. I have yet to get to try it. I'd never say they have the best steak, until I try it. I might say "I heard they have the best steak, but I have yet to try it." As I said, I come here for information. I hope the information I get is from personal experience, not just regurgitating what others have said, at least to some degree. Read my other posts. I posted comments about things plenty of people talk up, but actually suck. The XD is one of those things. Its a whole big bowl of wrong for a handgun, yet everyone claims it is the best. And I know people who have never shot one, who plan to buy one, and they claim its the best. How do they know? And I get that people talk, and they repeat what they hear. When I go to the range, or go train, I know I'm getting REAL feedback, because people discuss what they have, what they used to have, and what they might get...and most importantly, WHY. Perhaps I'm expecting too much out of forum talk.

I too buy a lot of things that way. Sometimes it works out in my favor, but quite often it doesn't. And in all reality, with most products, one doesn't necessarily get to try it out before buying. So I understand where you are coming from - at least to a degree.

Maybe I'm being dense, but I'm not exactly sure how this addressed the quote of mine you quoted. Of course I want a good product. The quote of mine you quoted wasn't about that. And I'll be shopping for a full mag tube soon. Only reasons why I've not upgraded yet are 1) 922r and 2) I am not confident I need the extra two shots. Not sure the added weight and hassle will be something I benefit from enough to justify messing with it. I was just wondering how one (in this case, Skeeter) can cheerlead products one has yet to even see in person yet. That's all. I know a lot of people, including myself, come here to see what people like and don't like, and I would prefer if I read something about a product, in particular a review where someone called a product the "best" or especially if they called the product the "worst" that they had first hand personal knowledge of what they are talking about. I'd like to know why that person felt it was the "best" or the "worst" aside from just adopting a herd mentality. I can get reviews like that in gun magazines. As I said, years ago everyone raved about the skeletonized stock. I don't recall any objective reviews. I just recall everyone had to have one. I got one, hated it. Look at XD handguns. They get all the accolades, everyone and their mother has one, and personally, I think the gun is a suckfest. The gun feels great in the hand, and my initial impression was ok, this is great. Then I started shooting it. Hate the trigger. Hate the feel. You rarely hear about what people hate about the XD because all you hear is the good. So many people consider it the "best." I consider it the worst. So I'm looking for more information...and most importantly, what makes it the "best" or what makes it the "worst" or what makes is "okay" or what makes it "meh." I'm sure there are others, especially M4 noobs, who would like as much info as possible... Anyway, Skeeter's explanation was adequate.

I'm sure he makes good stuff, he has a good rep around here regarding his product. I only ask because setting up a firearm can be somewhat personal, and I've never truly known that i would like a firearm product until I had an opportunity to try it out personally. I've bought some stuff that everyone loves that I hated. And vice versa. I remember back in the day everyone had to have the Benelli skeletonized stock. I bought one for around $600 or so - a "good" deal. Hated it! Actually, I've not tried a skeletonized stock that I liked. I hate 'em all. I am dying for the Urbino. I like the standard pistol-grip stock WAY better. Much easier to shoot with and I like a guaranteed cheek weld.