ccwinmemphis Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 Any confirmation of the rumor that Benelli is no longer offering the 11707 for the civilian market ?? If this is true, are they offering another version of the M4 to the public ?? Any info would be appreciated ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMilitaryPolice Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 I spoke with them personally last week(as i stated on here) and they told me in no uncertain terms that the 11707 version of the M4 is "NO LONGER BEING MARKETED TO CIVILIANS, MILITARY AND POLICE ONLY"thats a direct quote. The same was said about the adjustable stocks , they are no longer allowed to be marketed to civilians. Supposedly those rules were already in efffect and the ones that were on the market are the only ones out there. I spoke to the CS rep for 8 mins about these topics and the current state of affairs..well the next day a poster on here stated that he had spoken with Benelli CS and they had toild him the opposite about the 11707 but the same about the stocks, so in fact, who knows?? The CS i spoke with was very upset about the matter and suggested that i contact my congressional rep and make my feelings known. The point of that is that he was very upset with the current trend and felt as if ATF was trying to run them out of civilian market so apparently he had to have some extensive knowledge but im just repeating what i was told..2 answers in 2 days from Benelli CS..so again, who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vagabundo94 Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 I spoke with them personally last week(as i stated on here) and they told me in no uncertain terms that the 11707 version of the M4 is "NO LONGER BEING MARKETED TO CIVILIANS, MILITARY AND POLICE ONLY"thats a direct quote. The same was said about the adjustable stocks , they are no longer allowed to be marketed to civilians. Supposedly those rules were already in efffect and the ones that were on the market are the only ones out there. I spoke to the CS rep for 8 mins about these topics and the current state of affairs..well the next day a poster on here stated that he had spoken with Benelli CS and they had toild him the opposite about the 11707 but the same about the stocks, so in fact, who knows?? The CS i spoke with was very upset about the matter and suggested that i contact my congressional rep and make my feelings known. The point of that is that he was very upset with the current trend and felt as if ATF was trying to run them out of civilian market so apparently he had to have some extensive knowledge but im just repeating what i was told..2 answers in 2 days from Benelli CS..so again, who knows? Bizarre! MrMilitaryPolice - I'm just curious, if you happen to know, what specific rules make it so that Benelli can not offer this gun to civilians? Did the CS you spoke to give you any specifics? I understand the threads about the gun being illegal should one take an M4 and add a full-length magazine tube to it (because of it also having a pistol grip stock), or replace the factory stock with a collapsible one. (I've read that here on this forum, but have no understanding of this particular law other than what I've read here). But neither of those issues would seem to prevent Benelli from selling the version of the M4 that they have been selling to civilians. And if Benelli is forced to pull the M4 out of this market, I'm curious what that means to current civilian owners of the M4. Do we all own illegal guns? I've seen it before where the ATF gave a stamp of approval on a gun for the civilan market, and later rescinded, claiming that the gun was actually illegal. And then it was illegal for the people that had already purchased it to own it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMilitaryPolice Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 The CS rep i spoke with was very angry about the ban and he directed his anger towards the ATF and told me repeatedly that i should contact my congressman, but he was as unhappy about it as i was. The military version of the M4 (11707) will no longer be sold to civilians according to him. The adjustable stock to fit the 11707 will no longer be sold to civilians according to him. I guess its much like the ban on the 2 shot extension, they are available for M&P but not civilians. I do not know what law/rule/ or reasoning the ATF is using to stop these sales but apparently its pretty effective. As far as what you have to add/remove to make your gun legal..im not really sure, the water is kinda muddy on that one, some say 2 US parts, some say 5, some say more, so i just dont know. I do know the entire thing is senseless ..what difference is there between a US made mag tube and an italian made mag tube?? aside from maybe quality...NOTHING!! so it makes alot of sense, but then again, i feel like the ATF is full of idiots anyways.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STA Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 The CS rep i spoke with was very angry about the ban ... The military version of the M4 (11707) will no longer be sold to civilians according to him. Did you get the CSRs name? Wonder what he'd say about the fact that Benelli just added their new camo model (11717) to their website (yes, just added this week after the news of the M4's demise here on this forum). Damn shame of Benelli to waste such marketing efforts on a shotgun they won't be selling. Good thing all the new kids here got an M4 for Xmas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fett Tracking Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 I'm telling you. do not waste your time talking to customer service people. If you want a better answer, ask to talk to their boss, or go even higher up. Their cs has been so ****** that I refuse to anybody thats not a manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMilitaryPolice Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 STA, you may not realize that there are TWO versions of the M4 shotgun, one is the 1014, it will continue to be sold to the public but it will not accept adjustable stocks, the the 11707 version is the military and police version that has now been restricted to the public, it has the adjustable stock..the mag tubes have already been restricted and price went thru the roof, but you will still be able to get an M4 , it just wont be with all the bells and whistles...you know how dangerous those adjustable stocks are! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinny Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Like I mentioned at another post. I'm just going to buy a SOCOMGuy tube for my M4 and call it a day. Hopefully the 11707 is still available for the rest of you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMilitaryPolice Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 that exactly what i did, got my 11707 with FACTORY full length tube, with ADJUSTABLE stock...can you say, sweeeeett??!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinny Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Hehe, I was going to go for a pair of M4s with the exact features, but later found that the supplies to the collapsable stocks are drying up. Prices have definitely shot up. I figured it's not really worth it. Hopefully Surefire will come out with their forend so I can add that to the M4 #2. I figure if I can't make them completely the same, I might as well make them completely different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMilitaryPolice Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 i actually bought two M4's at the same time back in the summer, i bought two adjustable stocks for good measure and installed one stock and left one with pistol grip. I later bought the factory tubes and they were very expensive but well worth it considerin what the value will be later on...heres a pic of my two the day i bought them before i tacticooled them out...lol http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q285/bigdaddytom/DSC00563.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinny Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 That looks familiar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GV00 Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 MrMP Personally, I'd say you should take another look at getting one of SOCOMGuy's tubes. I have two factory tubes + one he made, and the quality of his tube is much, much better. Save your factory tubes for suckers on Ebay who absolutely have to have factory stuff -- even if it isn't the best available. Also, does anyone else think the new 11717 looks kinda silly? I'd have been all over it if Benelli hadn't left the mag tube & pistol grip black. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STA Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 STA, you may not realize that there are TWO versions of the M4 shotgun, one is the 1014, it will continue to be sold to the public but it will not accept adjustable stocks, the the 11707 version is the military and police version that has now been restricted to the public, it has the adjustable stock.. MrMP, you may not realize that there have been multiple versions of the M4/M1014 offered by Benelli. In fact the only civilian model recently offered has been the 11707, which comes from the factory with the pistol grip stock over the fully milled spring tube. It does not have an 'adjustable stock', merely a milled tube which can accept a skeleton stock and would allow said to collapse if used. The newest offering with the desert camo is the 11717, though Benelli's site does not indicate if there are any additional changes. The civilian shotgun generally referred to as the "M1014" was a limited edition commemorative model (i.e. 1 of 2500) first offered to the civilian market as model 11701. This had a a U.S. flag engraved on the receiver and featured the two port, non-screw-in choke barrel (modified). It had an unmilled spring tube and the skeleton stock, which due to the lack of milling, would not collapse. The stock would rotate and move slightly forward (about an inch) during the installation/removal process, which was the reason CA DOJ sent a letter 'recommending' that sales stop in this state. It was not actively prohibited from sales in most other states however, and was still available on the used market here in CA (as how I acquired mine last year). Concurrent with and then following the 11701, Benelli offered the 11703 model which again featured the unmilled spring tube but now came with a pistol grip stock. The bigger changes with this model came with the barrel, which now had screw-in choke tubes and came with 4 larger gas ports and modified gas plugs for use with 'low recoil rounds'. Per Benelli, this change to the gas system was done to ensure the guns would still function when the public at large began shooting birdshot through their mil-spec guns. After some failures with bolt carriers when using full power loads and an ongoing denial by Benelli that there was a problem, they finally began quietly replacing customer's barrels with two port, screw-in choke barrels when requested. Catalog listings at this time also show a 11702 (same as 11703 but with standard stock) and a 11705 (same as 11703 but with non-collapsing skeleton stock - think M1014 without the US flag), but I do not know how prevalent these were compared to the 11703. Other sources also show the 14" entry barreled versions as 11722-24. With all the confusion over barrel and stock combinations, it seems Benelli thinned the herd and did some product consolidation into the one version now seen as the 11707. As stated, this utilizes the standard two port barrel, doing away with the low recoil barrel fiasco of the 11703. It features the milled spring tube (allowing collapse of the skelton stock where available) yet comes with the pistol grip stock making it legal from the box in states such as CA. With this model also came some changes to the barrel extension, with an added collar that butts against the receiver and an added 'wing' to the rear which matches the inner profile of the ejection port. Despite proclamations that the limited edition M1014 had a "heavy" military barrel while latter civilian models had lightweight barrels, measuring all three types in my possession have shown identical dimensions from the receiver to the muzzle. The gross changes seem to be the gas ports/plugs, screw-in chokes and now barrel extensions. Combining the civilian, military, entry and prototypes examples in print, that brings the total to at least six barrels styles offered over the years that I can determine. I guess make it seven now with Desert Camo ! The Benelli M4 is everchanging. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMilitaryPolice Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 STA, i knew all that but to condense it down, i basically said, that the 11707 version came with the skeletonozed stock,knowin full well that i had changed mine out from standard pistol grip to the adjustable, so it really is the only one that accepts the adj stock, but it didnt 'technically come with it. if that makes sense. as for the 1014 version, that and the 707 version are the two prevailing models eevryone is mot familiar with and those were the 2 the poster was mainly referring too, so mainly, thats what i addressed. thanks for all the info tho, i just dont type that much that well...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMilitaryPolice Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 GV00, i attempted to buy SOCOM guys tube and he and i were in touch several times, however he never had any tubes ready when he said he would and it was always me contacting him and i simply got tired of waiting and moved on after he didnt contact me last when he was supposed to. I know the tubes are of great quality but for value and continuity, i keep everything factory..factory tube is quite nice too altho expensive, i think its worth it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vagabundo94 Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 MrMP, you may not realize that there have been multiple versions of the M4/M1014 offered by Benelli. In fact the only civilian model recently offered has been the 11707, which comes from the factory with the pistol grip stock.... Well, this was a great read for me. I only knew that there have been multiple versions, but was unaware of the specifics of those versions. Great post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fett Tracking Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 MrMP, you may not realize that there have been multiple versions of the M4/M1014 offered by Benelli. In fact the only civilian model recently offered has been the 11707, which comes from the factory with the pistol grip stock over the fully milled spring tube. It does not have an 'adjustable stock', merely a milled tube which can accept a skeleton stock and would allow said to collapse if used. The newest offering with the desert camo is the 11717, though Benelli's site does not indicate if there are any additional changes. The civilian shotgun generally referred to as the "M1014" was a limited edition commemorative model (i.e. 1 of 2500) first offered to the civilian market as model 11701. This had a a U.S. flag engraved on the receiver and featured the two port, non-screw-in choke barrel (modified). It had an unmilled spring tube and the skeleton stock, which due to the lack of milling, would not collapse. The stock would rotate and move slightly forward (about an inch) during the installation/removal process, which was the reason CA DOJ sent a letter 'recommending' that sales stop in this state. It was not actively prohibited from sales in most other states however, and was still available on the used market here in CA (as how I acquired mine last year). Concurrent with and then following the 11701, Benelli offered the 11703 model which again featured the unmilled spring tube but now came with a pistol grip stock. The bigger changes with this model came with the barrel, which now had screw-in choke tubes and came with 4 larger gas ports and modified gas plugs for use with 'low recoil rounds'. Per Benelli, this change to the gas system was done to ensure the guns would still function when the public at large began shooting birdshot through their mil-spec guns. After some failures with bolt carriers when using full power loads and an ongoing denial by Benelli that there was a problem, they finally began quietly replacing customer's barrels with two port, screw-in choke barrels when requested. Catalog listings at this time also show a 11702 (same as 11703 but with standard stock) and a 11705 (same as 11703 but with non-collapsing skeleton stock - think M1014 without the US flag), but I do not know how prevalent these were compared to the 11703. Other sources also show the 14" entry barreled versions as 11722-24. With all the confusion over barrel and stock combinations, it seems Benelli thinned the herd and did some product consolidation into the one version now seen as the 11707. As stated, this utilizes the standard two port barrel, doing away with the low recoil barrel fiasco of the 11703. It features the milled spring tube (allowing collapse of the skelton stock where available) yet comes with the pistol grip stock making it legal from the box in states such as CA. With this model also came some changes to the barrel extension, with an added collar that butts against the receiver and an added 'wing' to the rear which matches the inner profile of the ejection port. Despite proclamations that the limited edition M1014 had a "heavy" military barrel while latter civilian models had lightweight barrels, measuring all three types in my possession have shown identical dimensions from the receiver to the muzzle. The gross changes seem to be the gas ports/plugs, screw-in chokes and now barrel extensions. Combining the civilian, military, entry and prototypes examples in print, that brings the total to at least six barrels styles offered over the years that I can determine. I guess make it seven now with Desert Camo ! The Benelli M4 is everchanging. A mod should seriously, most definately copy this post and sticky it somewhere. This post would have saved me hours when I first dived into these forums. STA you are a beautiful specimen and I will light a candle for you tonight before bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMilitaryPolice Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 preach it brother Fett !! that is a GREAT idea to sticky it somewhere for all to read. Altho the information is readily available on the web for anyone, it is scattered at best and STA combined and condensed the info and definitevly answered alot of questions and cleared up alot of misconceptions to those new to the M4..congrats and thanks STA. tom in tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SergeantBernie Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 I just wanted to pass on a thanks to you folks on this forum for providing a good sounding ground for tons of information about the Benelli M4. I was interested in purchasing one the first time I saw a picture of one back when it was being tested by the Marine corps. Was I ever a happy camper when I found out it was being released to the civilian market! Anyway, just last October I purchased a model 11707 and sweet lord is that thing ever awesome! Thanks to you all here and a few other sources I determined that the 11707 was the only way to fly! I've said it in another forum, but to get around the possible 922r infractions, I strongly urge you to seriously consider bucking up another $200 and a month of waiting to send off a Form 1 to the ATF to register your M4 as a short barrelled shotgun. (SBS) IMO, this $200 investment (if allowed in your state) goes a long way in making me sleep like a baby knowing that all the bells and whistles I want to put on it (regardles of their origin) are completely and totally kosher. Thanks again to all you here on the boards. Happy shooting! Sincerely, Shane Bernskoetter Author of: Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq http://www.survivingtwilight.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pamat Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Shane, Can you provide more details regarding registering the M4 as a SBS? Are there any negatives to it? Did you provide fingerprints with the application? If so, where did you get them done? You mentioned creating a LLC in another post to get around the LCEO, if necessary. What is a LLC and how does it take the place of the signature of an LCEO? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SergeantBernie Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Shane, Can you provide more details regarding registering the M4 as a SBS? Are there any negatives to it? Did you provide fingerprints with the application? If so, where did you get them done? You mentioned creating a LLC in another post to get around the LCEO, if necessary. What is a LLC and how does it take the place of the signature of an LCEO? Thanks. Pamat, once the M4 is registered as an SBS, you are free to swap parts and barrels on it as you wish. It becomes a verified NFA registered weapon that is exempt from the 922r restrictions of X number of US parts on the weapon, and also allows you to put any length of barrel you desire on it - be it 2.5 inches or 32.5. People often say it severely limits your resellability, this is complete nonsense and is typically stated by people who have never actually gone through with the SBS or SBR process. If you leave it as an SBS and try to sell it, the only drawback is that the buyer must pay $200 to transfer it to their name. The 30-90 day wait will also apply. However, if you should decide to sell the M4 and don't want to sell it as an SBS, then simply draft a letter to the ATF NFA branch stating you wish the weapon to be removed from the NFA registry as it is being returned to its original factory configuration. Enclose a copy of the Form 1 you submitted to make the weapon and within a month or so you'll have your serial number wiped from the registry and your M4 will once again simply be a civvy standard M4. Before you send the letter you will need to restore your weapon to its original status (eg.- 18.5" barrel, regular non collapsible stock, etc.). With this done, you now have your M4 back to a regular Joe shotgun and you can sell it accordingly. Take those cool components you used for the SBS version and sell them on Gunbroker.com or another site to reclaim your investment. This way, you have to eat the $200 initial registration fee to make the thing an SBS, but it may be very worthwhile to allow faster and easier selling in case you have to *GASP!!!* sell your shotgun. In my opinion the $200 is a wash, you can blow that at the range in ammo in a weekend. Big deal. In Missouri, the CEO of a Limited Liability Corporation can approve their own Form 1 requests. Fill out the entire front side of the form and down in Block 9 the head of the LLC (which is me when I set it up with the state) signs their name, then in Block 10 the LLC head prints their name and title. Lastly, date the form in Block 11. By filling this part out, the LLC head approves the form and this completely skips the need for any Block 13 CLEO certification. If you don't go the LLC route, then you'll have to get your town or county sheriff to sign the form, and they will also have to take your fingerprints on a specific card. I've not done this before but if you have an understanding, level headed, non-Kool Aid sipping CLEO, then good for you. Consider yourself lucky. The reason I tout the LLC route as well is because since the LLC "owns" the weapon, then any officer of the company can be in possession of the weapon at any time. This way you can put your wife, dad, brother, whoever you trust down as an officer of your company when you file. I did this so in case I leave for a year deployment and my wife wants to go out and shoot one of my Class 3 weapons or transport them, she's completely legit and doesn't have to worry about running into a gray area of possessing or transporting some weapon owned by a specifically named individual. She's an officer of the LLC and has full rights to the weapon just like me. Period. You can access a Form 1 from the ATF website here: www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf One thing I haven't mentioned yet and something that caused my brother's Form 1 to be denied was that in MO, an LLC must possess either a FFL or a Curios & Relics license in order to have a Form 1 approved. There was no way he or I was going to get an FFL since we had no intention of getting into the business of selling guns and maintaining a storefront. The C&R is a very watered down FFL that costs about $30 for a 3 year period. In a nutshell, the process looks like this for what I went through in MO to get my first SBR: 1. Form a Limited Liability Corporation (LLC) with the state. Make sure you are listed as one of the officers/heads of the company when filing. 2. Apply for a C&R license USING THE LLC AS THE APPLICANT. The form is a ATF Form 7CR I believe. 3. Once the C&R license is approved, fill out your Form 1. If you don't use a Form 1 sent to you by the ATF and instead print one off the net, make sure you print the form using both sides of a single sheet or the ATF will kick it back! Send 2 copies of this form, 2 Certification of Compliance forms (www.titleii.com/pdf/5330-20.pdf), 2 articles of incorporation and your $200 check to the ATF. Once the ATF has all this, typical turn around time for a first Form 1 is about 2 months. Subsequent Form 1's can be as little as three weeks. I think it is a very misunderstood process that once a list of steps is created, suddenly makes the process like any other bureaucratic government process - easily capable of being accomplished by 99% of citizens if they only had the steps to follow! I strongly suggest the www.HkPro.com website. On there are tons of people discussing this exact same issue (SBR and SBS process). It serves as a great resource because whether you are making an SBR or an SBS it is all the same steps. Once you get your first Class 3 Short barrelled weapon, there is no stopping you! Just as a bit of a tease, here is a picture of the USC to UMP conversion that popped my Form 1 SBR cherry! http://www.survivingtwilight.com/firearms.html I hope this answered most of your questions, I'm happy to provide any help I can to demistify the NFA short barrelling process. Let me know if you need any further info if you can't locate it on HkPro.com! Sincerely, Shane Bernskoetter Author of: Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq http://www.survivingtwilight.com 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ishmael Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Shane, not to hijack the thread, but is that converted USC yours? If so, would you mind saying what the total conversion cost was, assuming you already had the USC? Thanks, Ishmael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pamat Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Shane, Thanks very much for the information. I believe I am going to go the SBS/LLC route. The only thing I think I missed is if I go the LLC route, will I still need to supply the fingerprints? If so, does the CLEO do it? Thanks again for the excellent write-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinny Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Shane, Thanks very much for the information. I believe I am going to go the SBS/LLC route. The only thing I think I missed is if I go the LLC route, will I still need to supply the fingerprints? If so, does the CLEO do it? Thanks again for the excellent write-up. Going the LLC route will bypass both fingerprints and CLEO's signature. Only drawback that I see is the company owns the firearms, not the individual. I'm contemplating going that LLC myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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