Spike100

^^ You understand and obviously have shot a lot of wild birds. When eating game birds shot with 7 ½ loads, chew slowly, carefully, and gently since there will certainly be some lead in the bird the chef did not discover and remove. You’re looking at close to $1K for a crown if you break a tooth on shot when eating a game bird. You mention shooting a 3” shell and 1 ¼ oz. #6 or #5 shot with a 20 gauge, and that is also a favorite for me as well. With this setup you are stuffing a lot of shot through a smaller bore. The result is a longer shot pattern that is also slightly tighter than you get with a 12 gauge at closer range ( 3” shells with #6 shot through an IC choke and a 20 gauge is deadly for quail. If you are shooting in an area that provides a mixed bag opportunity (pheasant, quail, and/or grouse), you might want to use a modified choke. My preference for this type of hunting is a S/S with double triggers and choked IC/M or M/F, depending upon the range the birds are flushing. Double triggers allow instantly selecting the barrel equipped with the optimum choke and load. --Spike

^^ Thanks for the reply. Yes, I see what you mean: ("I had hit my finger a few times when I was wearing a [cheap] thin pair [of] Cabela's liner gloves. Back of the guard my middle finger.”) I haven’t fired enough rounds through a Vinci to notice soreness from bumping the middle finger on the rear of the trigger guard. However, I did notice that the rear part of the trigger guard is quite thick, and it does press against your middle finger when positioning your hand on the pistol grip. The space is very tight. I’m not sure why the rear of the trigger guard is so wide (deep) on the Vinci. It might be for structural strength to provide rigidity to the lower component? Most of the complaints you read about the Vinci relate to the trigger guard and the safety. Fixes for these problems might be a larger throw-bolt for the safety (more protrusive) and a trigger guard that is less deep in its rearward dimension. --Spike

^^ Thanks for the reply and more detail. My point is simply that a modified choke with #6 shot is very adequate for patterning on quail (or any upland game for that matter). In fact you don’t need to bother swapping out #6 (or even #5) for #7 ½ load for quail if you are shooting a modified choke. You would need to go to a #7 ½ or smaller shot size if you are shooting an improved-cylinder or skeet choke. --Spike

^^ It’s interesting that you mention carrying 7 ½ shot size when you get into some quail. I have done the same thing, but my result was poor since 7 ½ isn’t the right load for pheasants, and shooting 7 ½ shot size works best for quail, but only if you switch to an improved-cylinder (or even cylinder or skeet choke). If I’m hunting in an area with potential shots on both pheasants and quail, I use a modified choke and #6 shot. #6 kills the pheasants and the quail, while #7 ½ cripples pheasants (at 35+ yards). Shooting quail with #6 shot and a modified choke certainly requires more precision, but it works and it’s definitely deadly. Just a thought, --Spike

^^ RE> "I had hit my finger a few times when I was wearing a cheep thin pair af Cabela's liner gloves." Was it the front of the trigger guard that was striking your finger? What benefit did "Got a new pair of gloves." provide? --Spike

Hi nikefun499, ...Nothing in your post appears useful to this Thread or the Forum. Please take it somewhere else and leave us alone. Actually, your message appears to be a "robot," so we'll try tracking you down to your den. --Spike __________________________________ EDIT: Mercifully a Forum Moderator removed the promotional message posted by nikefun499, so... that message is now gone and readers should ignore my reply. Kudos to the Moderator for removing spam.

Loads for shooting pheasants If you are shooting a 20 gauge: Lead Shot: 3” shell, 1 ¼ oz., 3 Dram EQ, #4 sized shot (lead) Steel shot: Don’t shoot steel with a 20 gauge. If you must use steel, shoot a 12 gauge. If you are shooting a 12 gauge: Lead Shot: 2 ¾” shell, 1 ¼ oz., Dram EQ. 1500 fps, #6 or #5 sized shot Steel Shot: 2 ¾” shell, 1 1/8 oz., Dram EQ. 1400 fps, #4 or #3 sized shot Additional Notes: - If you use alternative non-toxic “heavy” shot, I’m not sure, but I would probably go with the lead shot specifications above if the alternative shot is “soft.” - You don’t need a 3” shell in a 12 gauge for pheasants. - The choke should be modified (.016 to .018) or tighter (improved modified at .022-.024) when shooting lead or alternative-soft shot. For steel shot, improved cylinder (.012-.014) is OK, but don’t go tighter than modified (.016 to .018) when shooting steel shot. - For a shot inside 40 yards, a modified choke with lead or improved cylinder with steel is deadly. If the shot is past this (maybe about 50-60 yards), you may need at least improved modified or even full with lead, or modified with steel. --Spike

Hello boykinhntr,… Thanks for your thorough review of the Vinci. I’ve been looking at this gun and really like it, mostly for the reasons you mention. The gun comes up and mounts very well (for me anyway), and as you said, the recoil-jump is minimal. I am aware of the discussion concerning the safety, but I didn’t find this a problem either (even when wearing cold-weather gloves). When wearing gloves, I do curl my forefinger slightly to provide more downward force with the end of my finger on the safety. --Spike

I would think that is a design flaw… … since you should not be able to insert the bolt so that protrudes outside the inner bolt wall allowing it to rub against the receiver. --Spike

^^ A problem operating the Vinci’s safety while wearing gloves has been mentioned by a couple of people here. I’ve also read the same comment on another Forum. I didn’t experience the problem when I was testing a Vinci, but I was wearing a light-weight shooting glove. The Vinci's safety button is in front of the trigger guard, making its position different from some other model Benelli guns; but it’s apparently the recessed-configuration that causes trouble for some shooters. The Beretta 391 autoloader has its safety button at the front of the trigger guard, and the crossbolt-safety (the safety button) is also recessed, but mainly at the top of the button and not so much forward of the safety button (as is the case with the Vinci). I don’t know if Beretta owners are reporting any problems with this gun’s safety. I suppose a fix for this might be a longer crossbolt so that the safety button protrudes slightly making it more accessible when wearing gloves. Any qualified gunsmith could do this modification, but I imagine there might be concerns whenever changing a gun’s safety (even at this very elemental level). Since we exist in a very litigious society, a gunsmith understandably has reservations when changing the manufacturer’s safety configuration. Hopefully Benelli becomes aware of the problem reported by some shooters, and offers a replacement crossbolt that is slightly longer (i.e., more protrusive) than the Vinci’s standard safety button. That would be an effective repair for shooter who has a problem disengaging the safety when wearing gloves. Spike

I understand your frustration. However, don’t be too hard on Stoeger and the Uplander gun. Two-barrel guns are actually inherently more difficult to build than an autoloader. The problem you describe can happen even with high-end Krieghoff and Parazzi guns. While autoloaders and pump-guns are built with modern manufacturing processes requiring minimal handwork, there is a lot of craftsmanship involved in constructing a two-barrel gun. A two-barrel gun has lots of little parts and pieces (springs, complicated firing mechanisms, ejector-mechanisms etc.) that are often fitted laboriously together by hand. When an autoloader fails to fire or load a shell, it’s often a simple fix that typically requires some lubricant or simply cleaning the weapon’s slide, receiver, or its bolt. The worst case is probably simply replacing the bolt. When a two-barrel gun fails to fire, the repair usually requires the expertise of an experienced gunsmith, or even returning the gun to the manufacturer or an authorized repair center. BTW: If you do need to return the gun to the manufacturer for repair, the warranty on that repair should be the date on which the gun is returned to you after the work is completed. In other words, if a gun has a one year warranty, and it fails and you return the gun for warranty work; your new one-year warranty (on at least that specific repair) should restart on the date the manufacturer returns the gun to you. That makes sense and is the fair way to handle a warranty since the repair can take 90 or more days. Spike

Don't mail the gun anywhere. You will leave the gun with the dealer from you you made the purchase. They will either provide you with a replacement gun (which they should), or send this gun to an authorized repair center (which could literally take months during which you won't have a gun). You don't want this gun; so if it's not immediately replaced, let it go back to wherever for a repair. And in the mean time, go to work on the manufacturer for a new replacement of the unsafe gun that was sold to you. Hope I don't get banned! --Spike

If it’s a new gun that you recently purchased, you are under warranty and the repair should not cost you anything. However, this is obviously a “Monday Morning” defective gun, and you should demand a replacement instead of a repair. The gun you have now is not safe to shoot (it’s an accident waiting to happen if you have a delayed or weak firing incident). Even if it’s repaired, it will go back to the factory or an authorized repair center. That means you will be without the gun for at least 90 days or longer. Follow these steps to get this resolved: 1. Copy the serial number from the gun’s barrel and receiver. I believe these should match. 2. Return the gun to the dealer from whom who made the original purchase, and request a replacement instead of a repair. 3. If the dealer refuses to replace the gun with a new one, send a letter to the manufacturer. Your letter should include the gun’s model, serial number, a problem description, and the dealer who sold the gun. You should state that you purchased the gun as new, and that you want a replacement gun and not a repair of the gun you purchased. I don’t think you will have any problem getting a replacement gun. --Spike

^^ This is a used gun… right? Obviously, something is very wrong. If the trigger feels heavy and the right-side firing pin is occasionally hanging, it’s a problem with the mechanism. A qualified gunsmith can fix this. It might require replacement parts. I would get on the repair ASAP. I say this because it’s possible that the sticking firing pin could get fully stuck when firing the right barrel, and then have the pin release and the gun discharge a few seconds or a moment later. --Spike

Matt, Thanks for more info and details. I agree that SD pheasant hunting is very good this year. In fact it reminds me of the early 1960’s when numbers were very high due to favorable weather and the “Soil Bank Program” (similar to the current CRP arrangement). About the Winchester Model 12… It’s very fun watching a guy who can shoot a pump accurately on the second and third shot. It’s almost metaphysical… watching them rack shells one after another and killing multiple birds. I’m biased and like pointers. I’ve always enjoyed watching the stealth displayed by a good pointer working a bird; and it’s a lot of fun to shoot off the dog’s point. However, when I cripple a pheasant that keeps flying and then sets down, I’ll put my money on a Lab that takes off running after the wounded bird. About [“… but sorry to say I won't tell where I hunt.”]:I hear you. I don’t do that either. Great picture that is worth a thousand words, --Spike

^^ Great picture!… Thanks for posting. But… no stories… no details at all… How about some embellishment… opinions about the various guns (autoloaders, pumps, O/U, S/S), shot-loads (4’s, 5's, 6’s), dogs (retrievers, pointers, flushing dogs), etc. With a dozen shooters, you typically see about half that shoot about 80% of the birds. I'm sure you don't want to offend your companions, but I'm wondering about the validitity of my statment for your group. --Spike

The Golden Pheasant (also referred to as the Chinese Pheasant) is native to western China. The males have a yellow head along with some other color variations and morphology that makes this bird appear very differently than your typical SD pheasant (see timb99’s picture). Matt’s picture is a Common Pheasant that has a gold/tan-colored body. Notice this bird has a dark green head (which is not seen with a Golden Pheasant). We are seeing more Common Pheasants with variations in body color these days in SD. The likely reason for this is the practice of breeding pen-raised pheasants for release on farms to insure better numbers for hunters. The “Paid Hunting Farms” that release birds are definitely impacting the natural order. For now it appears mostly to be variations in color; I hope it never results in birds that have infirmities or less resistance to disease or adverse conditions (weather, “predator-smarts,” etc.). The worst case scenario is birds with genetic defects that reduce viability in the general population (instead of only genetic variations in color). Pheasant hunting has become a significant part of the economy in SD. That explains the large number of released birds. I believe it would be much better to focus on habitat improvements and predator management. --Spike

Take the stock, and the front and mid bead, out of the equation. If the barrel is perfectly aligned with a stationary target, the only possible result is a hit. The shot goes straight down the barrel and keeps going straight once it leaves the barrel. The only thing that could change this is if the barrel is not straight (bent). If you do aim a shotgun (as opposed to pointing the gun) as you might do when shooting a stationary or slow moving target, your rear sight is your head (eye) position in relation to the barrel. The mid-bead is only an alignment aid. It’s really not meant as an “aiming aid.” Think of it this way: You would never mount the rear sight on a rifle half the way down the barrel. You said: I've shot [plenty] of other shotguns with a middle and front bead without a problem and without an optic.” I think that goes back to my point that this specific gun isn’t fitting you properly so that your alignment isn’t correct. That is not to say that it’s impossible to shoot a gun with dimensions that do not fit perfectly. This case requires adjusting head and hand positions slightly until the gun hits where you are pointing (or aiming when shooting the gun like a rifle). --Spike

^^ Thanks for the thorough explanation. I understand now. In fact I have a Franchi autoloader I purchased about 15 years ago. I bought the Franchi autoloader for pheasant hunting since it was light weight (6.5 pounds) and recoil operated (I thought this would be a better choice hunting fields with lots of dry debris that finds its way into a gun). I absolutely love the gun since it’s a perfect fit for me and I shot it very well. However, I have the same issue you mention. The gun frequently fails to feed even the second shot after firing it just a few times or hunting in conditions that allow debris into the gun’s interior. I actually started field-stripping the gun and cleaning it after firing just a few rounds while hunting just to keep it operating. The Franci model I have is recoil operated, but its mechanism is very different from my Benelli Montefeltro. The Bennelli has a sliding bolt while the Franchi has a sliding barrel that pushes the bolt for auto loading. My model Franchi uses a copper ring that is placed on the barrel ring that fits over the feed tube on which the barrel slides. I have two rings, and each is designed to handle the load I’m using (heavy or light). I’ve tried everything I can think of to make my Franchi work reliably, and I have not found the solution. I’ve tried using just the copper light load ring, oiling the feed tube and not oiling the feed tube, different (and hopefully cleaner powder loads), more and less oil on the bolt rails, etc. I’ve not used steel wool on the bolt, but after reading you message, I’m definitely going to work on the Franchi’s bolt with some steel wool and a little “elbow grease.” It’s really frustrating having a gun you love to shoot because it fits so well with great balance, and then experience blockages. The scenario: A very long shot… you go for it and make a great hit with the first shot, but at that range it’s not a kill and the bird struggles along in the air. No problem you think, I’ll make the next shot and kill it. You get back on the bird… and then… misfeed (no shell in the chamber)… Damn it! Mercifully, I’ve never had the bolt handle fall out. That would be the last straw for me and this gun with all the other problems I have had. The Franchi is no longer my primary gun, but only my backup gun for my Benelli Montefeltro. --Spike

But hold the phone! I thought that you reported the same problem (a lost/thrown bolt-handle) before, and you have lost at least two bolt handles? http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24248 If that is the case, I wonder if simply replacing the bolt handle a third time will be a fix. Doing the same thing (now at least 3 times) and expecting a different result might be foolish. I wonder if it’s the bolt itself that’s the problem. It will be interesting if this third attempt fixes things, and if it does not; if Benelli is willing to provide you with a new bolt. Subscribing… --Spike

Thanks for posting the solution. I've been following your thread and wanted to know how you solved the problem. --Spike

Please forgive the long message that follows, and I understand your frustration… I read your thread carefully, and I keep coming to the same conclusion. The Vinci does not fit you, and that is why you are experiencing the problems you describe. Here’s the deal: Shotguns used for clays and wing shooting do not have a rear sight. The “rear sight” is your head position (and ultimately the position of your shooting eye). I love the look, construction, and feel of Browning shotguns, but for some reason I can’t shoot an “off-the-rack” Browning accurately. I routinely break 24/25 targets in trap, but shooting a Browning I’m lucky to get 18 targets. Obviously it’s not a problem with the Browning guns (they shoot very straight), but instead it’s just that a Browning does not fit me and I shoot left and high with this gun. I did purchase a custom S/S years ago that was precisely built to my anatomy and shooting method by a professional gun fitter. Somewhere (cannot find it now) I have my measurements (cast-off, drop at comb, length of pull, fore-end dimension, weight distribution front/rear, etc.). I really like the gun since it fits me exactly and I shoot it well. I purchased a Benelli Montefeltro a few years ago, and I shoot this gun very well. It fits. Recently I’ve been test shooting a Vinci, and that gun also seems to fit me almost perfectly. But, just because I have a positive experience with a Vinci does not mean the next guy should expect the same result since the fitment may not be the same. BTW: You mention having a problem with the Vinci’s safety being relocated to the front of the trigger guard. I found this not to be a problem, and actually like this position. I guess it’s a matter of preference. My O/U guns and S/S guns have the safety positioned on the tang, my Monefeltro’s safety is on the rear of the trigger guard, and it seemed natural to use the Vinci’s safety positioned on the front of the trigger guard. “Dunno” why, but I have no problem with any of these safety-positions. It’s probably instinct. I also shoot single and double triggers with no problem. --Spike

…Same here. It would be fun to see some African pictures. The photo safaris and hunting large game is done from camps, and you often fly in a small plane to get there and go from camp to camp. Bird hunting is often from a railroad train (a close metaphor is Robert Conrad’s transportation in the TV series the Wild Wild West) that takes you to various areas where you shoot, and then move on by the same train to the next shooting area. --Spike

Do you always make friends this quickly and easily wherever you go?

The rear sight on a shotgun used for wing shooting and clays is the position of your eye over the stock, aligning with the gun’s barrel. The middle bead is only there for practicing alignment. The best clay shooters never see the front bead or middle bead when shooting a target. It’s instinct and the proper mount that allow great wing shooting. If you look at the front bead when executing a shot, you probably tend to stop the gun, and in the case of a right-handed shooter, the miss is to the left side of the target for right-angle and straight-away flying targets. It’s physically impossible for a shotgun to shoot left or right from a bench mount when it’s properly aligned. The only possible reason would be a bent barrel (not likely) or a barrel that is not seated (again, not likely). A gun that shoots high or low is the result of the stock’s configuration (more or less drop), and you can easily correct this with Benelli guns by installing the shim that works best for YOU. I prefer a straighter stock (less drop that shoots higher) for trap, and a little more drop (shooting lower) for skeet. I like a stock with an adjustable insert (past just using shims which take time to change) for this reason when shooting clay targets. When shooting upland game birds (pheasants, grouse, and woodcock), I have better results with a straighter stock (shooting higher) since the birds are rising. I have better results with less-drop when pass-shooting. If you continue having a problem with a gun that shoots left of the target, it’s most likely fitment that interferes with alignment, and this may not be the gun best suited for your anatomy (your neck length, shoulder – square vs. sloping, or even your eye position relative to your skull). Of course this is corrected with a custom stock, but Benelli’s are relatively inexpensive guns making this not a realistic solution. If you want to shoot an “off-the-rack” gun, I would experiment and shoot other guns to discover what fits you best. --Spike