Spike100

Thanks for kind words. There is a back story here. The dog actually belongs to my Dad. My Mom passed away last August from Alzheimer's disease leaving my Dad alone and lonely. He provided all her care. The funeral was on their wedding anniversary if you can believe such a thing. Dad’s beloved American Brittany Spaniel also died about the same time making things even worse. The owners at Plum Creek Kennels kindly provided Dad with Ree (one of their retired females). The fit was perfect for everyone. Dad got a great dog (she’s a 24/7 companion for him), the kennel found a wonderful home for a retired dog, and Ree gets to be with a master who loves her and she now lives indoors and goes everywhere with my Dad. I’ve hunted birds for over 50 years, and I’ve owned some very good pointers that I’ve run in trials. But, Ree is better than any dog I’ve owned or hunted over. It’s really fun to work with such an exceptional bird dog. I’m very impressed with the quality of the French Brittany dog coming out Plum Creek Kennels. --Spike

If you are seeing impact 12 inches left, the probable cause is canting. That is more likely if you see alignment on the front and mid bead, but still shoot to one side. Right-hand shooters usually cant the gun counter-clockwise, and the result is the impact point is left of the perceived alignment. It is very rare that a right handed shooter cants clockwise and shoots right of the target. Of course the opposite is true for left-handed shooters. My expensive double-barrel S/S guns have an offset stock that prevents this (canting) when naturally mounting the gun. Canting is also less a problem with the short vertical height on a S/S’s fore-end than when shooting an O/U or an automatic gun that typically have a fore-end with greater vertical height. Here is how you discover the problem and how you fix it: Put the full choke in your Vinci, stand below the high house on a skeet range, and shoot the target. With a full choke, you should “smoke” the clay target (it should almost disappear if you are aligned properly). If the clay pigeon isn’t completely obliterated (or if you actually miss the target), you know that your alignment isn’t correct, and you are probably shooting to the left of the target (if you are a right-handed shooter). The fix is moving your head higher and more over the top of the stock. Doing this reduces the chance of canting and thus improves your alignment. With this said, there are factors that can make a gun unsuitable. Our bodies vary (neck length, square shoulders vs. rounded shoulders, arm length, etc.), and that might require abandoning a gun that does not fit and moving on to something else. For example Browning shotguns do not work for me at all. I simply cannot mount the gun reliably and hit targets. Benelli guns fit me perfectly. So… I don’t own any Browning guns, but love Benelli. Of course any gun can be made perfect by installing a custom stock with measurements corresponding to your body/build for offset, drop at comb, and trigger pull length. But, that’s expensive and requires custom fitting, and custom fitment isn’t available with all guns. You may just want to shop for an “off the self” gun that best fits you. Hope this is helpful, --Spike

I’ll start it out with a picture of a French Brittany retrieving a pheasant. Ree is a female and a champion dog imported from France by Plum Creek Kennels. Ree is 9 years old and a retiree from Plum Creek Kennels, but she hunts and retrieves with the enthusiasm and energy of a 4 year-old dog. Plum Creek Kennels consistently produces the best Brittany dogs available anywhere in the world (they truly have an international reputation). Check their website (http://french-brittany.com/) to see the impressive accomplishments competing in trials in both the USA and France. This pheasant was killed with a very long shot from a Benelli Montefeltro 12 gauge. It took two precise hits (#6 shot in the chamber followed by a #4 loaded from the magazine) to bring the bird down. Ree did a long retrieve, and the picture shows her returning the bird on the run. That’s fun stuff! --Spike

Post your 2010 pictures of upland game hunting here (pheasants, quail, grouse, prairie chickens, partridge, and chukkars).

I suppose that the load’s velocity does make a difference (and requires some modification) when shooting clay targets. Expert clay shooters claim this is the case, and they have the advantage shooting various loads at fairly consistent yardage (range). With that said, I agree with you: I’ve never changed my lead when wing shooting (ducks, pheasants, etc.), no matter what barrel length or shot-load I’m using. Wing shooting offers enough challenges (range and speed of the flying bird) without attempting to factor in load velocity. --Spike

^^ Doubling with a 410 is good shooting. I’ve hung it up for the year now as well (but, looking forward to next year). Question: What type (breed) pointer are you using for quail? --Spike

^^ Your threads and postings unfortunately make a good argument for censorship (which I hate). Where is forum moderator when you need them? My philosophy is it’s best to ignore a Troll. When they stop receiving attention and no longer gain any replies, they go away to scout another site where they can have some fun for awhile. / Thread --Spike

Trolls really exist… but their postings/messages/threads are not real. --Spike

It might be that you are gaining debris or crud build-up inside the bolt handle’s insert (the space inside the hole in the bolt receiving the bolt handle’s shaft), crud on bolt handle’s shaft, or deformation of the bolt handle’s shaft. The reason the bolt handle stays inside the bolt is based in a mechanical principle, specifically the “Morse Taper.” The Morse taper, a precise 4 degree taper of the shaft on the bolt handle, produces a considerable amount of frictional retention between the bolt-handle’s shaft and the corresponding hole inside the bolt with the same taper. Lateral forces won’t loosen the two pieces connected with Morse taper. That’s why the bolt handle won’t come loose when firing the gun (and while the bolt slides violently back and forth), and why wiggling the bolt handle does not loosen the bolt handle. To remove the bolt handle, you must pull straight out to overcome the friction fit of a Morse taper. If the bolt handle’s shaft and the insert hole in the bolt are clean and have no debris or build-up, and there is no deformation; you can expect the bolt handle to remain in place, held there reliably by the Morse taper. If the bolt handles loosens or falls out of the bolt (or even if the “… the bolt seems to come out easier every time I clean it.”), you are experiencing a failure of the fitment design (i.e., the Morse taper). Hope this is helpful, --Spike

^^ Good one. I'm willing to bet that at least some here missed your humor. --Spike

/ thread. Don't feed the Trolls. --Spike

I assume this is at least the second bolt handle that has fallen out. If that’s the case, it’s probably the not the bolt handle that is the problem. It must be the bolt-receptacle for the handle that is not maintaining the proper amount of friction-grip. You might need a new bolt. I’ve never experienced the problem you describe, so please post back to this thread when you get it fixed. That helps us learn. I dunno? --Spike

In for some more fun....

^^ Now you are sounding a little weird. --Spike

It makes sense since tampons are absorbent, disposable, and do not leave any debris. If you do decide going with tampons, consider the following points: 1. How will you get them? …Steal ‘em from your GF or wife? ... Order them on eBay? ...Probably not from your local store though. 2. How do you explain the box of tampons in your shell bag to your hunting buddies? And, make absolutely certain that you know the symptoms of “Toxic Shot Syndrome” and understand what to do if encountering this when using tampons to clean your gun. Your first call should be to a gunsmith who can advise the best course of action. --Spike

Hi Art… I agree that just about any load or choke will kill or knock-down pheasants at 20-25 yards. However, when hunting pheasants in ND and SD (and especially late season when many shots are at 40 yards or more) an open choke (> .016) and a light load (7 ½” shot size) won’t work. Your setup (open chokes and small pellets) is working for you in your locality, so I would stay with this. If you ever go to the Dakotas for pheasants, you will need more choke and larger pellets. --Spike

You are correct. I just measured my Montefeltro with a 26” barrel against my Berretta O/U with a 29.5” barrel (or 30” with extended chokes); and, measuring from the trigger, there’s only about ½” difference. That means the comparison should be about a 30” barrel and NOT a 28” barrel on the O/U to a 26” barrel on the semiautomatic as I incorrectly stated. Your point about a negligible difference in velocity with identical loads when comparing shotgun barrel lengths is also true. The energy of a load begins to fall-off significantly with shotgun pellets at 40 yards or even less, so barrel length isn’t significant here. And, a very slight difference in velocity won’t make any significant difference at 25 yards. Wing shooters definitely have a tendency to disseminate faulty information mostly due to the incredible number of variables when shooting birds. Your scientific approach (and correcting me) is appreciated. One of the best books I’ve read on wing shooting is Shotgunning: The Art and the Science by Bob Brister. He dispels a lot of myths in his book. --Spike

^^ Very well stated… you obviously understand and know well what you are talking about. My compliments on your excellent rebuttal combined with accurate and informative details. I’m a little surprised that M1014's gf (who is obviously not SgtCathy) allowed posting her picture here. --Spike

A 26” barrel is the minimum length you should use on a semiautomatic gun or pump gun when hunting ducks and geese. 28” is about the equivalent length on a two barrel gun (O/U or S/S). If you are shooting from a blind or pit, you might want to consider using a 28” barrel on your semiautomatic gun or pump gun. The additional length provides an alignment advantage and a little better velocity with the same shot-load. A 26” barrel on your semiautomatic gun or pump gun might be a better choice when “jump shooting” (i.e., walking up to potholes and moving through the brush) since the shorter barrel is less likely to hang-up on brush. I’m not sure what you mean when you say “I'm thinking of getting a steady grip shotgun.” If you are considering a “tactical pistol grip,” forget about it for wing shooting. That type of pistol grip is great for level shooting, but it’s awful for the many angles you have when shooting flying birds (i.e., ducks and geese). And; if you can afford it, buy dedicated gun for turkey hunting and a different gun for duck/goose hunting. Your turkey gun will be much different than your duck/goose gun. Hope this is helpful, --Spike

You may want a pump gun if you are comfortable using a pump-action gun (that takes considerable practice if you are new to this type of gun), do not mind the greater recoil, and want more reliability. People choosing a semiautomatic gun appreciate the lowered perceived recoil, multiple shots without working the fore-end (pumping), and better target tracking while firing the gun. If reliability is essential (i.e., law enforcement), the pump gun is the best choice. If comfortable shooting and better target tracking is the desired feature, a semiautomatic gun is the better choice. --Spike

^^ If you are an enforcement officer (policeman), you need a weapon that is absolutely reliable and holds a lot of shells so you can output adequate firepower without worrying about misfires and stoppages. The best choice is a pump gun since it is relatively lightweight, holds a lot of shells, and operates with great reliability. If you are a hunter or a sport-shooter; you need a gun that holds one, two, three, or more rounds, has less recoil, and provides adequate reliability. Back in the 1950’s, two-barrel guns (O/U and S/S) and pump shotguns were popular, and semiautomatic guns were suspect because of frequent jams (mostly due to the paper shells used in that era that were prone to swelling and deformation). Today’s semiautomatic guns using modern ammunition provide adequate reliability for bird hunters and sport shooters. One great feature of a semiautomatic gun is less perceived recoil. You can easily shoot 200 targets without any problem with this type gun. As semiautomatic guns improve, pump guns become a less popular choice for hunters and “sport gun shooters.” Pump guns will always be popular with law enforcement for the reasons I mention above. If you want a pump gun and have not used this type weapon, shooting skeet targets allows you to become accustomed to the pumping action while shooting dual targets. --Spike

I’m not sure why you want to avoid 12 and 20 gauge guns since these are excellent loads, and the ammo is readily available in many configurations (i.e., shot loads, dram weight for powder, etc.). With this said, I have no problem with your preference for 16 gauge and 28 gauge as long as you use the right gun and load for your birds. Pheasants Pheasants are tough birds. You need the right gauge and load when hunting this bird. If you are walking-up early season birds that you shoot inside 30 yards, anything from a 20 to 12 gauge works well. If you are hunting late season when shots get much longer (often > 40 yards), you will appreciate a 12 gauge, or at least a 16 gauge with the correct load for killing long range flushes. A heavy –load 12 gauge shell is probably better since you get a more optimum pattern. When using a 20 gauge on pheasants at over 30 yards, you need a 3” shell (6 or 4 size shot), and you are pushing a large load through a small bore resulting in a long shot string. Side shots are OK, but you must shoot very accurately for straight-aways or less-angled shots. A 28 gauge gun is not appropriate for pheasants. It kills the close ones, but you will always get longer shots that cripple a bird. You don’t want to do that. Do not use a 28 gauge when hunting pheasants. Partridge and Chucker For these birds, choose the gauge that best matches the shot range. If you are shooting inside 30 yards, even a 28 gauge will be fine, especially if you are shooting over a good pointer. If the grouse/partridge are” flushing-wild” (over 30 yard), a 20 gauge will be a better gun. These birds are easily knocked down and do not run like pheasants when wounded, but you need a good dog if you shoot with a small gauge gun. Quail This bird is really fun to hunt over a good pointing do and a 28 gauge gun. It’s fun shooting this bird with a quality double-barrel gun. These are my opinions and certainly debatable. Other members here may well have other preferences. I would mention that 16 and 28 gauge are more rare, so using these requires more effort in locating appropriate shells. A good solution is loading your own shells to get exactly what you want. --Spike

I’m glad someone asks this question since I’ve experienced problems (stoppages) due to ignorance of proper maintenance, and not following cleaning instructions in the owner’s manual that came with my Montefeltro. Some of the “old timers” who operate pumps and semi-automatics have the misconception that a gun with an oiled bolt attracted debris in the field, and it is better to run the gun “dry” (i.e., no oil on the sliding parts). That’s not how you want to treat your Benelli. My problem was not applying a light coat of oil to the bolt rails after thoroughly cleaning the gun. Doing this is absolutely essential and prevents wear and stoppages. A dry bolt rail results in friction preventing the bolt from sliding freely. I rarely use solvent. I think solvent is mostly necessary if you leave the gun dirty for a period of time, and modern ammo does not leave much debris. If you do encounter some stubborn build-up, solvent will take care of this, and the solvent will not damage the metal parts of your gun. Here is what I do (and that is after receiving advice from some knowledgeable people on this forum who helped me after I asked about the same question you propose): 1. You must first thoroughly dry your gun. Never use solvent or oil on a moist metal surface. 2. If you have any power residue on a metal part (e.g., receiver, bolt, barrel, etc.) that you cannot wipe off with the rag you use to dry the gun, apply solvent and then use a dry cloth/patch to remove the built-up residue and any residual solvent. 3. When the gun is free of all dirty-residue and solvent (if you used this), apply a light oil coating to at least the bolt rails and other moving parts. A light oil coating applied to any of the metal parts (receiver, bolt, barrel… inside or outside, etc.) won’t cause a problem as long as the metal part is completely dry and moisture-free. 4. You should minimize any contact of oil or solvent on non-metal parts of your gun. Oil or solvent will ruin the wood or composite parts of your gun. I have probably forgotten to mention something, so additional comments from members here are very welcome. Hope this is helpful, --Spike

I believe I understand your message, but please forgive me if I am missing your point. There are some great values when buying handmade double-barrel hunting guns produced in Turkey and Russia. The low-end guns are sometimes (but not always) junky, but there are some very nice high-end hand-made shotguns produced in Turkey and Russia. Way back in the early 1980’s, I purchased a high-end and expensive Baikal S/S with 30” barrels, double triggers, a straight (English Style) grip, and splinter forend. I bought this for live pigeon shooting and its weight (about 7 pounds), balance, and exquisite build; and it’s been a great gun. I’ve fired a few thousand rounds through this gun without any problems. I understand the consistency problem, and appreciate the fact I was fortunate getting a very good gun. I do not have any first-hand experience with Turkish auto-loading shotguns. I have owned a variety of automatic shotguns (European and American), but the Benelli is by far the best autoloader I’ve used. The Benelli is better for many reasons (reliability, simplicity, maintenance, etc.). I bought the Montefeltro when it was first available, and I plan to buy the Vinci very soon. I am sympathetic to the problem you mention (very high purchase price for Benelli in Turkey). It’s a distribution problem that is beyond Beretta/Benelli control. --Spike

The main strength of shotguns produced in Turkey is double barrel guns. Turkish gun makers produce a wide variety of guns, and some are very high quality handmade double-barrel guns that are sold at very reasonable pricing-levels in Europe and the USA. Auto-loading shotguns manufactured in Turkey do not have the same reputation for quality, but they are also offered at a low price. Benelli dealers wisely maintain the price of their guns, even when competing with lower quality auto-loading guns. Actually, It’s not the retail price, but the tax you object to when comparing costs for this gun. --Spike