dharmabum Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I've seen these promoted, but am clueless as to whether they do provide a rapid source for reloading. Has anyone had experience with one brand or another of these? Can a "seriously challenged" mechanic like me install it or is this a smith's job? All guidance appreciated... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truckcop Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) Been using a Side Saddle on a M1 for close to 20 years now, primarily for competition. Rapid source for reloading? Yes. Easy breezy to install. Punch out trigger group pin, replace with screw/pin from kit, install backing plate (one small nut), install shell holder (6 small screws), and you're done. Just make sure you don't overtighten the trigger group screw/pin, which could cause cycling problems. That's really the only concern. Otherwise, I've never had problem 1 with mine, either in the function of the device itself or causing problems with the gun working correctly. I tried a Mesa Tactical for the M1 without a rail but despite what the copy says, the contour of their backing plate was not flush with the receiver which put too much pressure on the trigger group pin replacement. Side Saddle: Edited September 7, 2012 by truckcop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truckcop Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) Here are pics of the Mesa/M1. Improper fit. Didn't match the contour of the receiver and if you pushed it down to where the contours were close, the mounting hole for the trigger group pin was nowhere near the right place. Their mounts for the M4 might be better but I don't have an M4. Edited September 7, 2012 by truckcop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeper Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I've seen these promoted, but am clueless as to whether they do provide a rapid source for reloading. You didn't state for what gun. Assuming an M2T with a drilled and tapped receiver or an M4, Mesa Tactical makes a bolt-on sidesaddle that replaces your existing 1913 rail (on an M4) or attaches to the existing holes in an M2... and provides a 1913 rail. I believe they also make a 1913 rail sidesaddle for the Super Nova as well. Mesa Tactical, probably with only very limited argument , makes the best sidesaddles out there. (Although judging from truckcops example, you wouldn't know it) As to rapid reloading... that's another arguable point, but what is not arguable is that a sidesaddle allows you to keep your additional shells on the gun. For 3-gun competition I'd suggest belt mounted, spring-loaded shot shell "caddies"... and lots of practice to learn how to use them effectively. C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalope Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I've had mesa sidesaddles on both my M3 and my current M4. Love em to death. The elastomere retention band is ingenious, and holds them nice and secure. As the previous poster said, removable shell caddies are a lot better for competition, but you cant beat having extra rounds ON the weapon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truckcop Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) In my case, in addition to the rapid access to additional ammo, the side saddle provides me a very quick reload on an open bolt when necessary. We run a man on man match and I've beat my usual nemesis more times than not based strictly on the reload-to-chamber speed. As a lefty, when the bolt locks back, all I have to do is reach up with my support hand, pull a shell out of the side saddle and quickly slap it in the open port, close the bolt and fire. A one-at-a-time reload to the magazine from the side saddle would be slower than pulling 3-4 shells out of a belt mounted caddy. The immediate access to get one in the chamber with an open bolt quickly is probably the biggest advantage to having the side saddle. Edited September 7, 2012 by truckcop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeper Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Being a lefty myself truckcop... I'd agree with your comments to the word. Back when I still had a good amount of feeling in my right hand, I did exactly as you described. Now, I have to flip the gun upside-down, then holding it with my right hand and the butt resting on my left shoulder, feed it with my left hand from a belt carrier. I just drop too many shells anymore to do it with my right hand, and not much of an advantage anymore with a sidesaddle. C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dharmabum Posted September 7, 2012 Author Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) Thanks a lot to the three of you. You make solid arguments pro and con, which is what I like about this forum. As truckcop pointed out, I omitted to say I'm talking about my M4. I bought it thinking to keep it for home use. With that in mind I had wanted some means of having some extra loads. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't both of those side saddles depicted made of metal? Edited September 7, 2012 by dharmabum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truckcop Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 The backing/mounting plate on each is aluminum. The shell holder on the Side Saddle is plastic that is slightly undersized relative to the shotgun shell and it is a friction fit. The shell holder on the Mesa is aluminum and there's an internal elastomer band that holds the shell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalope Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 The Mesa tacticals are yes, if you scroll down a few threads you can see a picture of the 6 shell sidesaddle on my M4. If you want any more detailed pics let me know. Ill be happy to post them for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeper Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 If you look around or hang out here for awhile, someone, somewhere will have an MT for an M4 that they want to sell... usually for around $70-$80 for a 1913 rail version. Shell count is dependant on need and how much extra weight you want to lug around. Yes... the MT sidesaddles are made of aluminum, and HD is the perfect application. Cheep plastic ones from other makers are generally to be avoided. Do you have an extended or 1-piece mag tube yet, or still the stocker? It may be that with that upgrade, you might not feel a particular need to have a sidesaddle as well. I have a 6 shell, 1913 rail Mesa Tactical sidesaddle that I could sell... but it's for a M2. C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookster Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) The Sidearmor system offers a pretty slick spring loaded ball bearing retention system that I like: http://www.sidearmor.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46_47&products_id=76 FYI..I recall a thread a few years back... IIRC someone posted that they had a Mesa side saddle come off while being fired and it had stripped the receiver holes. I did a quick search trying to find the thread for you but I didn't see it. It's the only report like that that I recall and I'm sure it could have been an issue of the mounting screws being loose causing additional stress on the threads during cycling or even a case of them being over-torqued from the get-go and damaging the threads. I'm always extra cautious when dealing with those threads in a relatively thin section of the aluminum receiver Later, Hookster Edited September 7, 2012 by Hookster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeper Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 The Sidearmor stuff looks first rate, but the pricing for a rail, then a sidesaddle to finish it off seems a bit steep. You say a ball bearing retention? Is there a photo I can see that feature? I remember that loose screw issue Hookster. As I recall, Mesa had some screw problems from their vendor... so much so that they switched vendors and made exact copies of the genuine Benelli screws and taper washers. The rail/saddle I bought was just after they received their first batch of new screws. The most important things are to make sure the screws go flush or slightly less (like .003"-.005") than the inside of the receiver... and even with the lock washers, use blue loc-tite. C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookster Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) The Sidearmor stuff looks first rate, but the pricing for a rail, then a sidesaddle to finish it off seems a bit steep. You say a ball bearing retention? Is there a photo I can see that feature? I remember that loose screw issue Hookster. As I recall, Mesa had some screw problems from their vendor... so much so that they switched vendors and made exact copies of the genuine Benelli screws and taper washers. The rail/saddle I bought was just after they received their first batch of new screws. The most important things are to make sure the screws go flush or slightly less (like .003"-.005") than the inside of the receiver... and even with the lock washers, use blue loc-tite. C Hey Creeper, Yeah Sidearmor stuff is very well made! If you go to the link I posted and scroll down to the group of smaller pics, the upper right one gives you a little glimpse of the ball bearing detents (click on it for enlarged view)... I have the 4 shell holder that I got with my Mod 1 rail system out in my storage and if you'd like more detailed pics I could get it out tomorrow and snap a few. I'm glad you have better recall of the screw issue than I...I didn't want to scare Dharmabum out of going with the Mesa but it seemed like stuff I'd want to consider when making a choice. Take Care, Hookster Edited September 7, 2012 by Hookster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Case Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) I have the mod3 system from Sidearmor on my M4. The 6 round sidesaddle unit is detachable. http://www.sidearmor.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46_48&products_id=116 It was expensive but I liked the quick detach part because it enables quick access to the trigger pin for cleaning. The rail and the side saddle were around $170 together. If you click through the link you can view the ball bearing retention system that SideArmor uses to hold the shells. Installation is a breeze. Remove 5 screws and washers, re-install 5 screws. If you can turn a screw, you can do it. It's easier than breaking down the gun for cleaning. I've been very happy with the parts. The sidesaddle has absolutely zero play once it is attached. No rattle or movement. Downside: the side saddle cannot be installed/removed if you have an optic mounted on LaRue QD mount levers on the same side. You must remove the optic or run your QD lever on the right side of the gun. (I mounted mine with lever on the left to keep it out of the way of the ejection port.) Not sure if it plays well with other optics or mount systems. I use my shotgun for home defense and prefer to have a few extra rounds on the gun instead of the sling, but that's me. Creeper sounds like he does his own smithing so the following comment is aimed at those that may be new to wrenching on small parts: blue loc-tite (242) is recommended for screws at least 1/4" in diameter. If you're using it on a small screw you might want to try purple loc-tite (222MS) first and if you're still having issues then use blue. One man's opinion. Edited to add photo of sidearmor saddle with optic mounted. Edited September 7, 2012 by Case clean up the formatting after I added the image Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookster Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Hi Case! Yeah IIRC StrangerDanger used to have his LaRue w/T1 mounted with the lever on the right for the reason you stated on one of his earlier configurations. Later, Hookster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeper Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Ha ha... the one picture I didn't look at. As far as I know, the screw problem was the only problem Mesa had with the rail/sidesaddles, and that was like over a year ago. I've not heard of any issues since then. I no longer use a sidesaddle, but for the time I had it on, I didn't have any problems. Now, I just have a 1913 rail (with nothing on it) and a 7 shell Nordic tube and clamp. As you know, with the M2 inertia system, they can get a little weird with light practice loads and too much "stuff" attached to the gun... so I keep the "tacti-cool" bits to a minimum. C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeper Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 If you're using it on a small screw you might want to try purple loc-tite (222MS) first and if you're still having issues then use blue. I ran out of 222. It's easy to do when all you have is a little tube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dharmabum Posted September 7, 2012 Author Share Posted September 7, 2012 Again, thanks to one and all. Case, do you know which rail I would get for my M4? That is, is their a specific part number? Am I reading you correct...you install the rail, then the side saddle unit clips to the rail? I like the model you put the link for and can also see advantages (mainly cost) to the Mesa unit. Are there any particular models of M4 I need to know about before getting a rail/side saddle? All I know is "M4" but wanted to be sure there there wasn't some additional model number or configuration I'd need to know about before ordering. All I knew was I asked for an M4, got it went to the range and fell in love with it the first shot out of the pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Case Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) Thanks Hookster. I will probably flip mine around before I hit the range again and see what's what after I do some shooting. On review I'm not super thrilled with the way the two accessories are interacting but until I do some live fire practice I don't know. I haven't shot the gun yet with the sight. @Creeper - I know what you mean! I have a backup tube of the blue at all times because those little tubes either dry out or leak or both. And that stuff isn't cheap either. I have definitely pressed the blue into service when I was tired of stuff rattling loose. Just trying to give the OP a heads up because he said he wasn't mechanically inclined. : ) Hi Case! Yeah IIRC StrangerDanger used to have his LaRue w/T1 mounted with the lever on the right for the reason you stated on one of his earlier configurations. Later, Hookster Edited September 7, 2012 by Case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Case Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Yeah you install the rail and then you can buy whatever side saddle unit you want. They make one that holds six shells, eight shells, and one that holds 4 shells hand has a little rail attachment so that you can put a light, like a surefire x300, on it. You don't need any special part numbers. I ordered direct from them and here's what I got, for reference (copied straight out of their confirmation email from me - I looked it up): [TABLE=width: 100%] [TR] [TD=width: 30, align: right]1 x[/TD] [TD]6 Round Quick Detach Shell Holder (19606) [/TD] [TD=align: right]$69.95[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=width: 30, align: right]1 x[/TD] [TD]Quick Detach Standard Short Rail (25150-DE) [/TD] [TD=align: right]$99.95[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] The direct links on their product page: http://www.sidearmor.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46_48&products_id=114 http://www.sidearmor.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46_48&products_id=116 After you get it just make sure you remove the screws AND washers to do the installation. The washers are small and black on black so will miss them if you aren't careful. It's really easy to do. And I think they send some purple loc tite if you don't have any on hand. : ) Again, thanks to one and all. Case, do you know which rail I would get for my M4? That is, is their a specific part number? Am I reading you correct...you install the rail, then the side saddle unit clips to the rail? I like the model you put the link for and can also see advantages (mainly cost) to the Mesa unit. Are there any particular models of M4 I need to know about before getting a rail/side saddle? All I know is "M4" but wanted to be sure there there wasn't some additional model number or configuration I'd need to know about before ordering. All I knew was I asked for an M4, got it went to the range and fell in love with it the first shot out of the pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeper Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 @Creeper - I know what you mean! I have a backup tube of the blue at all times because those little tubes either dry out or leak or both. And that stuff isn't cheap either. I was just trying to let the OP know. No worries Case. Back when I taught mechanics and machining for Harley-Davidson Motor Co. I had lots of big bottles of practically every Loc-tite made at the time.... you know, stuff I "borrowed". Over the years, with friends that don't know the difference between Loc-tite and cake icing, my supplies have dwindled somewhat. The very first time I encountered 222 was when H-D came out with the diaphragm clutch in 1984. They used it on the 4 1/4" bolts that were used to compress the spring. At the time, 222 was preferred because apparently it stood up well to a hot, oily environment. Torque value was quite low (6 or 7 ft.lbs as I recall), so I believe that's why, even though 222 is intended for 1/4" and smaller fasteners, they chose it over 242. There ya' go... things you never wanted to know about me. Cheers, C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dharmabum Posted September 7, 2012 Author Share Posted September 7, 2012 Well I think Case is the winner!!! He has convinced me to go with the sidearmor rig, even though a bit pricy. I'll get it and have a go at self installing. If I, to whom a screwdriver is a serious challenge to use, can succeed in installing I'll post a photo or two. Fortunately I have a good friend who smiths shotguns for our largest gunclub and is always willing to help out a doofus in need. Thanks to all and sundry for a very informative evenig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huff64 Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Also look at the Mesa Tactical Sureshell carriers. they are a little pricy but really nice design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsdorf Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I was leaning toward the Mesa side saddle, but this thread convinced me to go with the Sidearmour system, simply because of the ease of removal for cleaning the shotgun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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