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Flame Red

Collapsible Stock Mod for M1014?

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Originally posted by Flame Red:

Too bad we can't get a CAD drawing of the real can. I am sure that there is a machine shop out there somewhere that would be willing to make them by the dozens. Heck, I used to know people in the areospace industry that would make things off the clock for themselves on the fancy robotic machine tools. Of course the old one would have to be removable. Even if it could not be removed, a really good machinist could cut off the stock one and weld or mechanically attach a new one.

 

All it takes is $$$$$$ and finding a talented machinist that is willing to do it.

You could modify the existing buffer tube. No need to cut and paste.

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This is painful.

Someone other then the angry folks on here... can you write up a "nice" non-legal letter so we can ALL ( ALL of us ) MAIL, not email... and ask for a modifacation or instructions or an option to send our Lovely M4-Civ weapons in for a "factory job" for the Military stock option.

 

Please.

Anyone up to the task??? smile.gif ... then send it to this forum, We'll all nicely make suggestions to it, print it out and mail it in to Benelli with our name and serial numbers.

How does this sound, past the part that this is my idea, I think my idea might be OUR only reasonable option... ( minus cutting off and welding the buffer tube, or have some gunsmith "test his skills" on my $1400 shotgun). Anyone? Some other idea then gunsmith magic, or legal crap?

smile.gif ~M4SUPER90FAN

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I have written several nice letters to Benelli asking for their assistances in this matter without a response. All letters simply requested information and clarification on this issue. There is no reason they can’t post a technical bulletin discussing this issue on the Benelli USA website. Further there is no reason to not provide M1014 owners with the diagrams showing the attachment of the buffer tube on the M1014. Any shotgun or rifle that is deliberately design in such a way that you can’t remove the buffer assembly is a negligent design. I had one of my rifles receive a crushing blow to the buffer assembly during a repelling outing. It was a post-ban rifle and required me to buy a new tube and stock since the stock is pinned to the tube but I did not have to replace the whole receiver.

 

Collapsible stock or not the serviceability of the M1014 is degraded by a negligent design. The M4 came with a non-collapsible stock and complied with the AWB and the buffer tube is removable. We are entitled to an explanation from Benelli why the buffer tube is not removable on the M1014. Also they should be willing to make the modifications so it is removable under warranty.

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It sounds like a bad case of buyers remorse, maybe you should have spent more time examining the gun prior to buying it instead of examining the brochure with a magnifying glass. If you are so hard on guns that you crush buffer tubes with great regularity I'm sure Benelli will fix it if it is under warranty. You bought a limited edition gun, if that is not what you wanted you shouldn't have bought it, if you want the same exact one the Marines use, join the Corp.

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I examined the owner’s manual which shows the buffer tube to be removable and have posted that diagram. I expect the design of the shotgun to be the same as what is presented in the owner’s manual. There were no footnotes in the owner’s manual stating the buffer tube of the M1014 could not be removed and the buffer assembly of the M1014 was different from the M4. I suggest all M1014 owner’s thoroughly examine the engineering diagrams in their owner’s manuals if they disagree.

 

The Benelli 5 year warranty does not cover accidental damaged caused by the owner’s use or normal wear and tear. As it stands if you damage the buffer assembly or it wears out you will have to replace the whole receiver. This is a negligent design and should be subject to recall and warranty repair.

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slu,

 

1) please stop saying the "design" is "negligent"... There is no such thing as a "negligent design." Something may have a design flaw or faulty design, but not negligent design.

 

2) What you actually MIGHT have against Benelli is a claim of breach of warranty of either merchantability or fitness for particular purpose, IF in fact the buffer tube cannot be removed, necessitating replacing the receiver in the event of a damaged buffer tube.

 

3) You'll never succeed on a claim of false advertising however, since it's clear from the brochure that the Limited Edition version would not have a collapsible stock. Although, the picture is deceiving, it's not enough to overcome the explicit exclusion in the brochure.

 

4) Go ahead and sue Benelli if you must, but good luck finding a lawyer to take the case as a class action. Practially all class actions are done on contingency due to the HIGH cost of bringing the action. In this case however, the damages are minimal... Other than the cost to Benelli to replace your tube with a removable one, what are you left with? Punitive damages? Not likely... It's HIGHLY unlikely that you'd win buy-back. If you did, the damages would be high, but after attorneys' fees and costs, you'd be LUCKY to have 50 cents on the dollar.

 

5) You're better off just selling the **** thing to someone who doesn't care/know about the collapsible stock issue, and buy a M1014 law enforcement version... Mine will be here next week!

 

Cheers,

Vaughn

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Originally posted by Rescue14:

Please explain pictures.

He thinks it proves his point. It doesn't. All it shows is the gun looks exactly like the drawings he's *****ing about.

 

Here's the response I got from Benelli:

I can not advise you to remove the current buffer tube as it can cause damage to the receiver and would void any warranty on your firearm.

 

Key word there "can cause damage." If it was affixed to the receiver they would have said so or used the term "will."

 

It's clear they don't want a bunch of would be gunsmiths trying to modify their own guns and voiding their warranties.

 

[ 10-07-2004, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: dport ]

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Vaughn, you sound like a fellow lawyer! All good points. Good to see lawyers with combat shotguns. Makes me proud of my profession!

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Originally posted by ipguy:

Vaughn, you sound like a fellow lawyer! All good points. Good to see lawyers with combat shotguns. Makes me proud of my profession!

hey ipguy,

 

I just noticed your other post about the AWB in which you stated you're a lawyer. I got a good chuckle out of it, because my first thought was "What does a lawyer need with a combat shotgun?" And then I thought, "Duh! Because they're cool as ****!"

 

The "ip" in your name doesn't stand for intellectual property, does it?

 

I'm currently a Navy JAG, but in law school I specialized in IP litigation and worked for a firm during school for about a year and half doing IP litigation. Would love to do it when I get out in a year, but want to stay in JAX, which isn't exactly the IP Lit mecca. So probably will just do commercial lit.

 

Cheers,

Vaughn

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Originally posted by dport:

I can not advise you to remove the current buffer tube as it can cause damage to the receiver and would void any warranty on your firearm.

dport has it right -- this 'warning' is simply a recommendation by the manufacturer. It's akin to a car manufacturer voiding the warranty if you modify your enging/exhaust system or if you don't have something done by a certified technician. They don't want just any a-hole with a wrench sticking it where it shouldn't be. Also, in this case at least, they're worried about liability. If they encourage you to do it, then they become liable in the event that their lawyer incorrectly interpreted the quagmire we call gun laws.

 

From the looks of the tube and receiver, there shouldn't be any reason a competent gun smith with the right tools can't swap them out for you.

 

Enjoy!

Vaughn

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Negligent Design or Manufacture

 

Unlike strict liability theory, which focuses on the product, negligence claims focus on the manufacturer's actions in designing and manufacturing the product. As in all negligence cases, the manufacturer can be found liable if a judge or jury finds that the manufacturer failed to exercise the degree of care that a reasonable manufacturer would exercise in manufacturing the product or that the product was not manufactured according to the manufacturer's own specifications.

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For the rest of us .... Just ignore him .. He'll fly away with the rest as soon as nobody responds to him.

 

[ 10-07-2004, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: birddog ]

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I was told the tube could not be removed and there was a design difference that would prevent removal. This was not a warning concerning the removal but rather it could not be done. Why does Benelli approve of buffer tube removal on the M4 but not on the M1014 if the design is the same? I can understand Benelli having concerns with an amateur trying to remove the tube but there should be no objection to a professional gunsmith performing the removal. Why is Benelli acting like there is something special about the buffer tube removal on the M1014 and not on the M4.

 

I don’t see any welds on the nut attaching the tube. My point of posting the pictures is to get feedback from other members as to what might have been done to prevent removal. Benelli needs to prove there is a design difference on the M1014 or sanction the buffer tube removal as they do with the M4.

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Originally posted by slu_med:

I can understand Benelli having concerns with an amateur trying to remove the tube but there should be no objection to a professional gunsmith performing the removal.

Actually, have you ever taken a car to a non-certified mechanic and then to a certified mechanic? Same thing. They don't want to endorse those who are not specialists.

 

Originally posted by slu_med:

I don’t see any welds on the nut attaching the tube. My point of posting the pictures is to get feedback from other members as to what might have been done to prevent removal. Benelli needs to prove there is a design difference on the M1014 or sanction the buffer tube removal as they do with the M4.

I agree with your assesment. While I believe the buffer tube is not permanately affixed to the receiver, there is one possibility. The tube itself could be tac welded to the receiver. I doubt that, however.

 

As for sanctioning removal of the buffer tube on the M4? I haven't seen where they said you could. Has the same rep. during the same conversation said no to the M1014 and yes to the M4? Was it the civy or LE version of the M4?

 

Anyway, this Naval Officer will listen to his service's legal council. ;)

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Originally posted by Vaughn:

The "ip" in your name doesn't stand for intellectual property, does it?

Rats! I'm busted! tongue.gif You figured me out. Yes, I've been a patent lawyer for 14 years. Not sure about JAX, but Baton Rouge ain't an IP mecca either. That's why I'm with a large firm, because we have clients all across the South. I don't do much litigation; mostly preparation and prosecution of apps, and lots of licensing work. It pays the bills and lets me buy good guns and ammo.

 

If you want to talk shop, send me a private message. Happy to help (when I'm not chasing after the kids)!

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Ok.... now that it "looks possable" to remove the buffer tube. How to get a LE M4 buffer tube. Maybe a gunsmith can request one? Or is it a in house repair only?

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Originally posted by slu_med:

Negligent Design or Manufacture

 

Unlike strict liability theory, which focuses on the product, negligence claims focus on the manufacturer's actions in designing and manufacturing the product. As in all negligence cases, the manufacturer can be found liable if a judge or jury finds that the manufacturer failed to exercise the degree of care that a reasonable manufacturer would exercise in manufacturing the product or that the product was not manufactured according to the manufacturer's own specifications.

You can pull anything you like off the web... Or you could just stick to medicine... You won't see me trying to perform brain surgery on my self, though I'm sure I can find something on the web on brain surgery procedures...

 

As I said, there is no such thing as a "NEGLIGENT DESIGN." Whether the manufacturer or designer was negligent is an entirely different issue that doesn't apply in this case. AGAIN I say, your only COLORABLE claim is breach of warranty. But if the tube is removable by a trained, properly equipped gunsmith, you don't even have that!

 

You don't like my advice? Fine, go spend $400 to talk to a different lawyer. Make sure you get someone else that has extensive consumer litigation experience (at trial - not just bluffing going to trial), and also the experience and resources to manage class actions... Let us know how far you get with him, and whether your money was well spent.

 

Or better yet, just look around the internet - I'm sure you can find all the information you need to file a class action suit pro se, which will be much cheaper!

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Originally posted by M4SUPER90FAN:

Ok.... now that it "looks possable" to remove the buffer tube. How to get a LE M4 buffer tube. Maybe a gunsmith can request one? Or is it a in house repair only?

Been down that road. Benelli isn't selling the buffer tube to their dealers. Probably to avoid some kitched counter gunsmith from ruining their shotgun trying to remove the old buffer tube.

 

Now here's where I don't like what Benelli IT has done. They won't let Benelli USA do custom work. Guess what replacing the buffer tube with an LE version is considered?

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Originally posted by dport:

quote:
Originally posted by M4SUPER90FAN:

Ok.... now that it "looks possable" to remove the buffer tube. How to get a LE M4 buffer tube. Maybe a gunsmith can request one? Or is it a in house repair only?

Been down that road. Benelli isn't selling the buffer tube to their dealers. Probably to avoid some kitched counter gunsmith from ruining their shotgun trying to remove the old buffer tube.

 

Now here's where I don't like what Benelli IT has done. They won't let Benelli USA do custom work. Guess what replacing the buffer tube with an LE version is considered? My local shop is an LE dealer. They said they could order any LE part for me from Benelli that would have been previously banned under the AWB... They don't have to tell Benelli that the customer isn't a LEO.

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Originally posted by Vaughn:

quote:
Originally posted by dport:

quote:
Originally posted by M4SUPER90FAN:

Ok.... now that it "looks possable" to remove the buffer tube. How to get a LE M4 buffer tube. Maybe a gunsmith can request one? Or is it a in house repair only?

Been down that road. Benelli isn't selling the buffer tube to their dealers. Probably to avoid some kitched counter gunsmith from ruining their shotgun trying to remove the old buffer tube.

 

Now here's where I don't like what Benelli IT has done. They won't let Benelli USA do custom work. Guess what replacing the buffer tube with an LE version is considered? My local shop is an LE dealer. They said they could order any LE part for me from Benelli that would have been previously banned under the AWB... They don't have to tell Benelli that the customer isn't a LEO. Excellent, get us prices and we'll do a group buy. :D

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It is unfortunate that a Benelli customer would have to even consider litigation to compel a manufacturer to do the right thing. I am fortunate enough to have a friend that is an outstanding attorney located in Clayton Missouri and a graduate of Washington University Law School. He has been practicing law for 12 years and has helped me resolve issues with several uncooperative manufactures in the past. Perhaps we can get all the attorneys together and arrive at a creative solution to help the M1014 owners out.

 

It seems that Benelli has put the M1014 owners in a catch 22 situation and have essentially forced you into buying a new shotgun. Benelli simply does not want you to have a collapsible stock on the M1014 even though it can be successfully done. If the buffer tube can be successfully replaced by a qualified gunsmith then why is there such resistance from Benelli to provide the parts. At the most you would be voiding your factory warranty. Of course the Benelli warranty could consider putting any type of light mount on the fore end of the shotgun an unauthorized modification and not honor the warranty.

 

If I am forced into buying a new shotgun it will not be another Benelli. For all those considering throwing out the Benelli I suggest you look at the Heckler and Koch semi-auto tactical with the folding stock. The barrel is about an inch longer but with the folding stock the overall length of the shotgun is shorter than the Benelli. Also the HK comes with a lifetime warranty for the original purchaser.

 

Has anyone gotten buy back prices from some of their local gun stores on the M1014? I suspect we will be lucky to get half of what we paid for the shotgun.

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Originally posted by slu_med:

It is unfortunate that a Benelli customer would have to even consider litigation to compel a manufacturer to do the right thing. I am fortunate enough to have a friend that is an outstanding attorney located in Clayton Missouri and a graduate of Washington University Law School. He has been practicing law for 12 years and has helped me resolve issues with several uncooperative manufactures in the past. Perhaps we can get all the attorneys together and arrive at a creative solution to help the M1014 owners out.

That explains it. A serial complainer. Hoping to strike it big with a lawsuit?

 

Thank you for reminding me why I left the STL area. Too many people like you and your friend.

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