StrangerDanger

I just bought one for some testing. The fit for my M4 has been quite well. I haven't had the chance to do any live fire testing on it yet. Duggan is right about the out of true spec rails. The side rails have a channel cut down the center similar to the factory Benelli top rail. The bottom rail appears to be in spec though. What does this mean in the real world? This is to be determined. I've mounted my LaRue mount to the side rails for my X300, and it hasn't shown any wear. The rail system is thicker than the factory handguards. Depending on what kind of rail covers/ladders, this size will vary. Now here is what I dislike about the handguard mounted rail system. As you can see, my hand is hitting the remote switch cable. This is less than ideal in my opinion. I even have the LaRue mount mounted further forward than ideal. If there was an offset mount that moved the light higher up, that would work out alright. I'm looking at an angled offset mount. Maybe something like this: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=160074 The ability to mount a sling point on the picatinny rail is better than the factory front sling mount in my opinion.

Glad to hear you got it off. I took some photographs of the removal job. Mine wasn't quite as tough as yours was. I have a theory that the 300 round torture tests I did in the past may have baked the locktite. I applied heat for about 2 or 3 minutes before I was able to unscrew the magazine tube by hand. I used balsa wood blocks for my vice. Bolt locked to the rear to add rigidity to the receiver. Here is the threads after I pulled the tube. It looks nasty, but it was very easy to clean with Brake Free Powder Blast. Here is after I cleaned up the threads.

My guess is that the outer surface might be at the target temperature. However, the heat probably isn't penetrating around the circumference of the threads. What's the max output of your heatgun? The one I got from Lowes is rated at a 1000 degrees. It was only like 35 bucks. What you can try is, remove the trigger group and bolt carrier, then direct the heat at the receiver side of the magazine tube. If you end up using a torch, I would not put it on the exterior finish. I'd focus the heat on the tube itself.

Great news. When should I expect request for payment? Gunbroker Item: 127127635 Thanks

Dodged that bullet. Thanks for the tech data. you saved me a thousand bones (maybe ). The perceived weight difference may be that the majority of the weight on the collapsible stock is at the rear, while the pistol grip non-collapsible model is evenly distributed. The straight stock's missing weight is likely due to the absence of the pistol grip itself. Come on April Ti tube orders!

Here are Kip's instructions. He advises against using a torch for potentially discoloring the receiver. Were you applying the heat mostly to the receiver or the magazine tube? Tools required; > Heat gun.(Refrain from using flame devices, torches, etc., they are overkill and have the potential of discoloring the finish on the receiver) > Snap ring pliers. >Stiff nylon or brass bristled tooth-brush, Q-tips and acetone. > Rubber grip pad. (Similar to a jar lid gripper, or even a piece of tire inner tube) >Padded vise. (not required but helpful if done alone without an assistant) Before proceeding please ensure the firearm is completely unloaded, clear mag tube and chamber, firearm on safe. Lock the bolt to the rear, then remove the factory barrel nut (by hand), set the barrel, bolt group, and handguards to the side. Using snap ring pliers set to compress when gripped, carefully remove the spring retainer from the end of the factory mag tube, (keep it aimed away from your face, with your other hand over the end so that the spring can be safely contained when it is "set free"). Then tilt the gun downwards, allowing the spring and follower to fall out. Place gun in a lightly clamped padded vise, between your knees, or in the hands of a competent assistant. Using the heat gun set to a maximum 400 F, apply direct heat to the full circumference of the mag tube where it meets the receiver, allowing heat to reach the receiver as well, continue rotating the heat around the junction until the two are beyond unbearable to touch (using an infra-red thermometer if available, you will typically see results when the receiver temp nears 250F), favor application of heat to the receiver, as it retains heat more efficiently. At that temp (around 250F) you should be able to begin twisting the factory tube off [ccw](here's where the rubber grip pad does double duty as a heat shield, and provides much better grip than bare hands). Do not use a pipe wrench for a few reasons, 1st it will damage your factory tube, but foremost it will provide excessive torque that may allow you to force removal before the loc-tite is ready to let go. Once it starts to turn, the battle is won, just keep it turning until it is free. Next clean the internal threads with acetone, Q-tips, and the nylon or brass tooth brush. It will look scary at 1st since the residue from the factory loc-tite is chalky white, but once you have it all cleaned off, you should be looking at the pristine black anodized receiver threads where the old tube use to be. You are now ready to install your replacement tube. Don't forget to transfer the handguard's stamped steel rear brace onto the new tube BEFORE threading it into the receiver, it is a "captured part" that has to be in place during assembly. Most people opt to fore-go the use of loc-tite, simply torqing in their new tube as tight as can be done by hand. If you use loc-tite, make sure you check the data sheet, and select a grade that can be heated for removal with LOW HEAT like the factory used. Typically just a drop of medium strength Loc-Tite brand "blue" will be sufficient if you use any at all. Replace all the remaining components, and enjoy!! Logistically the biggest hurdle is sourcing a heat gun, and commiting to DO IT. Once it's finished, you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. Surprising actually how many people are afraid of loc-tite, and default to the two round (higher priced) Benelli steel extender tubes as their only recourse, many of which now huddle in our scrap bins... rusting.

I'd love to have one also, but I don't find the 4" and -2 capacity to be worth the trouble in the Benelli. If I was going to go through with the hassle, I'd probably go with the 8" Tromix Saiga. http://www.tromix.com/images/8inchLage3w.jpg No reduction in capacity since it's magazine fed, and has a folding stock. I've heard some of the Saiga's won't eat that candy ass valuepack birdshot though. I'm not sure if Tromix branded ones will eat it or not. It has the ability to open up the gas port(s) to help cycle low base rounds. Another example of why the Benelli M4 is a better system. You could have 3" magnums and 2.75 ***** handicap loads in the same tube and shoot them all day long without adjusting anything.

Everyone knows the gay ones are light in the loafers.

I was in the same boat you're in for a while. I've also been building up my new favorite handgun. It's the cheapest handgun I've ever bought, and so far it's been the bestest. Springfield Armory XDm, in 9mm. I also picked up and learned reloading. I want to start loading Benelli food. Particularly high brass buckshot. I'm going to coat the entire pistol FDE pretty soon. I'm waiting on my damn X400 to be coated with it. X300 and X400's are the best. I sold two procyon's last week. They're crap compared to the Surefire. I sold off an Ed Brown 1911 Kobra Carry. It was nice, but it wasn't really practical. I figure when Kip's Ti tube comes, I'll sell off the factory Benelli extension I have and the factory magazine tube on gunbroker. Some guy bought the factory limiter tube for like 25 - 30 bucks from me. There are a couple of guys on there who will buy anything with the name Benelli M4 in the title. I considered selling my stock handguards, but since the weapon light package I'm assembling is one single unit, I can swap the factory handguards for the M80 and run the shotty stock. I'd only loose out on the sling.

Currently, tax stamps are taking 3 to 6 months to process. If I were you, I'd snag the barrel now and keep it at a friends. The factory 14's take forever to find. You'd need a Form 1. Two sets, two sets of finger prints, two passport photos and then you need to get your CLEO to sign off on it. This is the hardest part. (Chief Law Enforcement Officer). Or go the Corp or Family trust route which adds other issues but bypasses the CLEO authorization. Then you need 200 dollars. Once approved, you my have the receiver engraved with your name and location. Since you are now the manufacturer of the Class III device. I believe the lettering must be 3/16" high. I forget the depth. This is typically deeper than a trophy shop can do though. Consider what you'd need to do for the magazine tube also. If you get Kip's Ti unit, it'll need cut, or you'll need to return to the factory junker. Does the magazine cap screw onto the tube where the extension normally attaches?

If you have a standard straight stock, those numbers would be great too. Thanks

Did you pad the vice in any way? Scrap wood blocks are your friend. I wouldn't recommend rags because of the high heat involved. What are you heating it with? Electric heat gun or a propane torch? I can't stress enough how easy it is to wist one of these receivers. You do not want to be applying high torque to remove the tube. Think of an AR15 upper. If you barrel it without a receiver block, you risk deforming the upper. The same applies here. However, there is no receiver block. So you have to break the loctite down completely before. If needed, heat it for 5 minutes, try. Heat for 5 more minutes, try again and so on. If it still won't let up, you're going to need a propane torch. If you're using a strap wrench, don't use it to gain additional torque. You will really cry if that receiver twists on your 1500 dollar zombie killer. When you put the receiver in the vice with the blocks, you don't have to tighten it to flatten a penny. You're holding it in place in order to prevent receiver movement and to counteract your rotational force on the magazine tube. As for the paint, get a small can of duracoat. It probably won't match perfectly, but it is better than bare aluminum. Or pay to have it professionally refinished. Post pictures of the damage if you can. Maybe get a brown color and add a new darker camo patch across the damaged area.

I kind of hope not, that upgrade will cost me a grand to loose half a pound or so since I need a replacement recoil tube for my 11703. I bet that's about what Christy Alley spends. Did you notice much difference in balance when you swapped stocks?

Maybe Kip knows? He alluded to the collapsible stock restored the balance of the weapon when combined with his Ti tube. I'd be shocked if the collapsible stock shaved a quarter pound really. No more than 6 ounces max. The added metal hardware to engage the lockup will make up the difference. If it does cut off 6 ounces or more, I may have to get one. A standard stock may reduce more weight than either due to the lack of a pistol grip. I'd weigh my overall weapon, but that would be pointless since it is a quasimodo mix between a 11703 and a 11707.

I can weigh the pistol grip stock on my postal scale at work. I don't have a collapsible one though. I'd be interested in the weight difference also.

Thanks! I figured I needed to return and get this lighting issue sorted out finally. I had some run ins with a snake and the weapon without a light wasn't a very good snake charmer at night. Plus as a home defense weapon, a light is mandatory. I'm not too concerned about how evil the weapon is perceived to be. I'll gladly go to jail knowing my family is safe. That's the price you pay in Communist America. The medical care in prison is great. Good dental plan too. My big hang-up is the availability of Surefire X400's. I want to put my X300 on the Benelli with a LaRue mount. On a side note, Sidearmor started ignoring my emails and would not comment on allocating a proper spec Picatinny rail. I've written them off as a viable platform. They seem to have no interest in correcting this flawed design. When I have a chance, I will weigh my factory handguards and then the Surefire setup to see how much weight I am adding. I hope to break even with the addition of Kip's magazine tube. This isn't a cheap project. With the mag tube, I have about 900 - 950 dollars invested in just the weapon light project. 230 - Surefire M80 205 - Surefire X300 75 - LaRue Mount 165 - XT07 picatinny rail mounted switch 75 - 16" tape switch wire 25 - Three packs of Magpul XTM rail covers 200 - Titanium magazine tube This doesn't account for other modifications I've performed like the gg&g oversized bolt release or the titanium bolt handle from Design Concepts (I recently saw that Brownells was back in stock). I'll reiterate that if you are going to run an optic, you must buy Kip's top rail if you want to maintain the longevity of your weapon. Your mount may seem like it fits, but you will damage your mount if you actually shoot the weapon. I beat an EOTech 552 on this shotgun to death. Had to send it back to EOTech because the reticle was so blurry. The bottom of the EOTech showed the signs of a poorly designed rail. Parts of the rail were cutting into the rail channel. This was with the GG&G accucam mount also, which is considered one of the better designs to deal with this ***** rail. Luckily I was able to sell this scope and mount for 360 and 60 dollars respectively on Gunbroker with full disclosure of where it had been. Even after the scope returned from EOTech, it was still more blurry than I was willing to accept or use. I'm really glad Duggan has been championing this issue and providing documentation about the deficiencies. The only way I'd ever mount an Aimpoint T-1 is if this rail is replaced (and the old one promptly sold on gunbroker If you're crying that there is no "side saddle" (nomenclature from Tacstar) option, I highly recommend a buttstock pouch. You shift the weight to the rear too. I'm looking at trying the buttstock mount that Mesa makes. I'm not sure if it fits the M4 or not yet. The nylon ones are okay, but they're a ***** to put the shells back into. So you find yourself avoiding them when practicing. They take two hands to insert a new round. Mesa used to be like this, did they get better? Duggan, you mentioned that you 86'ed the sling. Any reason why? I HATED the factory front sling mount. The Daniel Defense picatinny mount I stole from my SBR is great. It keeps the sling away from the handguard. Before I was always tangling the sling between my hand and the forearm. -Steve

Duggan, I find your sense of humor to be appalling and feel as if I have been emotionally raped. There is also lightly hidden racism in your post. You took an incredible licking in my day journal today. One I'm sure you won't forget! I just cried and cried at the thought of the plight those poor sluts face every day. It's hard to be apart of a three-way train seven days a week. I felt so bad, I sent them this shirt to help them choose what is right for them: Signed Stranger Danger. Formerly known as StevenB.

Very nice. I'd consider getting one if I didn't have the 11703. So I'd have to buy the damn recoil tube also at 250 bucks. I'm waiting on my titanium tube also. I ordered mine in mid april, so I figure I have some time to go. Let us know how the T-1 works. I've considered it also, but I don't know how much it would help. I'm worried it will crowd the view like my EOTech did.

Did Mesa ever fix the issue where it took 2 hands ro insert the shells? I recall it was very difficult to pull the shells out also. The Sidearmor rail offers a 4 shell carrier. I have not used it so I can't comment on it's function. I may try it for a project I'm working on. I used the Tacstar unit. It sucked big floppy donkey dick. You could never get the unit tight and not squeeze the receiver to the point that it would bind the bolt carrier when retracted. It was also easy to shoot loose because of this design that replaced the pin that holds the trigger group in. If you're dead set on having more shells on the gun, consider one that mounts to the stock. That way the weight is to the rear. Spectre makes one I think. Other than the titanium mag tube and charging handle, what other methods are there for reducing the weight of the gun?

You're probably right about the source of the extrusion. Big names that do it right like LMT probably do everything in house. I'm going to bust Surefire's balls on why they decided to deviate from the mil spec standard on their M80 rail. Their bottom rail is within spec, but the sides are not.

Ding! Congratulations, this is the first time in history that someone has ever said to park a 5.5mm wrench in their rectum.

To be clear, my M4 11703 broke within the first 50 rounds. The left piston broke. It operated until the dislodged piece of the piston got jammed in the action. It continued to operate sluggishly with one piston. The piston broke because it wasn't heat treated properly, and I was feeding it 3" magnum Wolf buckshot on a 4 port barrel. After that repair, the Benelli worked for around 10k rounds. Near the end, the action was doing what you describe. Hanging up at the rear and sluggish performance. The carrier was binding in the receiver. So the entire weapon was sent back to Benelli. Several months later, it came back with a 2 port barrel, new carrier, new handguards, new piston system, choke. The only thing that was the same was the receiver, trigger group and the stock. I had asked that the receiver be replaced also due to the extensive wear present on the inside rails, but they declined. After the Benelli is setup the way I want, I intend to have it refinished. Ion bonding for the steel and titanium parts, and type 3 anodizing with teflon for the aluminum parts. As for the question about the Mesa rail. It's probably no worse than the factory rail. However, the mounting is suspect. You're putting a lot of weight on those 5 receiver holes. These screws are threaded into an aluminum receiver. You're also introducing a design that allows you to apply a lot of leverage on the shell carrier. Your chances of stripping the screws out of the receiver are higher as you install the bigger capacity shell carriers. If they redesigned it with a solid true spec picatinny rail, and gave you a bracket that replaced the hanguard retention clips at the receiver, the strength would be greatly improved. This would require that you remove the magazine extension to install it, but it would be worth it. Saying all this, I think the Sidearmor unit is a better design because it has the barrel mounted clamp that acts as a support so your receiver isn't taking the full load. Plus you're limited to 4 shells. The Sidearmor unit is in need of improvement also though. That topic is ongoing in another thread.

I wrote back to her today the following. I really doubt the extrusion costs any less with that cut channel. I think it is a weight savings move. They probably cut an ounce or two off the assembly. Hi Katherine, Thank you for the reply. I added your response to the thread. It seems the primary concern is with the center cut along the Picatinny rail. This cut is outside the specification of the Mil-Std-1913 tech data. http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m254/duggan12/PicatinnySpec01.jpg Reference Photo I looked at my M4, and determined that the center cut isn't really needed to keep from blocking the ghost ring sights. I've been using ladder rails for years on this rail, and it has never blocked the sight picture. I see that the side rails also have this cut. I would imagine it is because they're cut from the same extrusion as the top rails? Is there any chance that the design could be updated? Thanks, xxxxxxxxxxxxxx