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huklbrry

Any aftermarket m-4 telescoping stocks out there?

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Guest cleefurd
I think that price is ok.

I'd be supremely interested if you could somehow provide us with a grip similar in feel and appearance to the Benelli grip.

 

The best way to do that, would require cannibalizing the recipient's fixed stock, by removing the OEM rubber pistolgrip from it's mounting tang for 922R compliance (which would be returned for customer use at his/her discretion), cutting off the rear half of the stock, essentially rendering a perfect duplicate of the OEM front half, minus the Italian pistolgrip sleeve, and replacing it with a reasonable facsimile that meets the "US" part requirement as a replaced pistol grip. Ironically, this option would decrease the projected cost, but is viewed as unpallatable to most consumers, having lost their fixed stock in the transition.

 

The other alternative would SIGNIFICANTLY decrease the cost, where-in the buyer acknowledges the pistolgrip left intact on the conversion does not meet 922R perceived compliance, they would then have a perfect clone of the pistol grip portion/front half of a factory telescoping stock set fashioned from their cannibalized fixed stock, accompanied by the TITANIUM skeletonized slider/rear half described previously to round out the conversion. The latter would fulfill US part compliance for component {922R 178.39-(3)-©-(15)}... the buttstock. Off the top of my head, that could conceivably bring the projected cost down to $400 or LESS, including the conversion of the fixed stock to perfectly match the OEM pistol grip half of the OEM unit.

 

Many people opt to sell their fixed stocks when they convert to tele-stocks, in order to re-coup some of the upgrade costs, the cost savings of a converted front half vs new manufacture pretty much puts that same money back in the consumer's pocket up front ($400 converted vs $525 from scratch vs $800 OEM)... win-win.

 

Would be very interested to hear how well received that option is, as it would pretty much clinch my business partner's dismal interest (he's a prude!)

Edited by cleefurd
Hi-Lite ending statement

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I'd rather have one made from scratch than have to cannibalize a ~200 dollar part. a $500-600 price is very reasonable. Even 700 for a better than factory part is fairly reasonable, and I think many people including myself would line up to buy one.

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Guest cleefurd

 

Somehow I feel we owe you a debt of gratitude my friend. I was "told" in my initial quest that those parts and related parts could not be found domestically. Time to re-evaluate cost, for the better of course.

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Cleefurd, I would be in for the stock. Sorry to hijack, but would you be interested in doing US made replacement pistons for the M4? With a US made magazine tube and follower available we only need 3 more parts to comply with 922. The pistons would count for 2 more. With the stock your discussing we have compliance.

 

Edit: Would you be interested in making a handguard?

Edited by salsantini

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The best way to do that, would require cannibalizing the recipient's fixed stock, by removing the OEM rubber pistolgrip from it's mounting tang for 922R compliance (which would be returned for customer use at his/her discretion), cutting off the rear half of the stock, essentially rendering a perfect duplicate of the OEM front half, minus the Italian pistolgrip sleeve, and replacing it with a reasonable facsimile that meets the "US" part requirement as a replaced pistol grip. Ironically, this option would decrease the projected cost, but is viewed as unpallatable to most consumers, having lost their fixed stock in the transition.

 

The other alternative would SIGNIFICANTLY decrease the cost, where-in the buyer acknowledges the pistolgrip left intact on the conversion does not meet 922R perceived compliance, they would then have a perfect clone of the pistol grip portion/front half of a factory telescoping stock set fashioned from their cannibalized fixed stock, accompanied by the TITANIUM skeletonized slider/rear half described previously to round out the conversion. The latter would fulfill US part compliance for component {922R 178.39-(3)-©-(15)}... the buttstock. Off the top of my head, that could conceivably bring the projected cost down to $400 or LESS, including the conversion of the fixed stock to perfectly match the OEM pistol grip half of the OEM unit.

 

Many people opt to sell their fixed stocks when they convert to tele-stocks, in order to re-coup some of the upgrade costs, the cost savings of a converted front half vs new manufacture pretty much puts that same money back in the consumer's pocket up front ($400 converted vs $525 from scratch vs $800 OEM)... win-win.

 

Would be very interested to hear how well received that option is, as it would pretty much clinch my business partner's dismal interest (he's a prude!)

 

I am not willing to make any admissions regarding section 922r to save a buck. End of discussion.:)

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Although we have no pics, I'd say cleefurd's sounds better seeing as they have actually been built and put in use . . . again, I want a stock to look oem, not some heinz 57 part.

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Somehow I feel we owe you a debt of gratitude my friend. I was "told" in my initial quest that those parts and related parts could not be found domestically. Time to re-evaluate cost, for the better of course.

 

UNSC - if you ever come to Texas I'll buy you a drink! $500 would take some thought (I'd prob still do it but would really have to be convinced) - $300 would be a no-brainer.

 

The real question is what M4 sales have been like to LE in the US? They would represent an ongoing market reguardless of political changes.

 

A quick market survey could probably be accomplished by e-mailing Benelli dealerships and asking how many they thought they could sell if you sold through them at each price point.

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Guest cleefurd
I am not willing to make any admissions regarding section 922r to save a buck. End of discussion.:)

 

That is wise. Why go about it any other way??? Individuals who aptly adhere to 922R parts count compliance before installing any single component that defies import guidelines, are here for a reason... determine what to waive (or "make admissions" as you put it)in lieu of what to keep;

 

Sec. 178.39 Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns.

 

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun

using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph © of this

section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under

section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily

adaptable to sporting purposes.....

 

....

© For purposes of this section, the term imported parts are:

 

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings

(2) Barrels

(3) Barrel extensions

(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)

(5) Muzzle attachments

(6) Bolts

(7) Bolt carriers

(8) Operating rods

(9) Gas pistons

(10) Trigger housings

(11) Triggers

(12) Hammers

(13) Sears

(14) Disconnectors

(15) Buttstocks

(16) Pistol grips

(17) Forearms, handguards

(18) Magazine bodies

(19) Followers

(20) Floorplates

 

Provided a general consensus were;

 

You are stuck with;

(1) (2) (6) (7) (9) and (10) [total 6 so far]

 

Then you may then retain 4 additional OEM line items from that list to reach the limit of 10, while gravitating towards logical/feasible upgrades such as;

(17)(18)(19)

which can readily be stricken from the list with domestic alternatives.

 

The mitigating remaining candidates are;

(11) (12) (14) (15) (16)...

... but remember you may still retain 4 of these and be legal.

 

 

We replace (15) with the titanium tele BUTTSTOCK {U.S. Made}

 

(16) "PISTOL GRIPS" was lucky enough to get a long straw.

 

So: Waiving the imported pistolgrip (16) is do-able if you are here looking for an item you would utilize wisely, and waive in lieu of prudently replacing alternate components...."end of discusion":)

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Guest cleefurd
Cleefurd, I would be in for the stock. Sorry to hijack, but would you be interested in doing US made replacement pistons for the M4? With a US made magazine tube and follower available we only need 3 more parts to comply with 922. The pistons would count for 2 more. With the stock your discussing we have compliance.

 

Edit: Would you be interested in making a handguard?

 

I was told by a law enforcement official, that each line item constitutes one component, the rule is written as plural to ensure that individuals understand both must go if considered for elimination as a line item, rather than split hairs by replacing one to finalize any count. It is very confusing at times, the hanguards would be two items if viewed in the opposing fashion, when in fact it is a single line item. There is time for clarification of course. And yes I can make those pistons cheaper than OEM, but not by much. They are precision ground, after heat-treating and tempering in controlled atmospheres, from stainless steel.

 

Worst case scenario post # 38 is off by one (1) count due to added piston, so we provide a relatively cheap EDM cut hammer for $30 or so, maybe even provided along with the butt-stock, and once the consumer acquires his/her mag tube of choice, follower, replacement forearm, and pistol grip parts either through previously posted sources, or from us to streamline acquisition, they are "free to roam".

 

Hmmmm, getting somewhere. Collective problem solving. :rolleyes:

Edited by cleefurd

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I tried to have the hammer, trigger and disconnector made, but ran into problems with my shop. I'm currently trying to find another shop to resume my project. we'll see how it goes. The hammer and disconnector should be easy, they are simple parts. I have their rudimentary shapes saved as .dxf files. I just need to talk to someone with a wire EDM machine to see if they really can be made.

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Guest cleefurd
I tried to have the hammer, trigger and disconnector made, but ran into problems with my shop. I'm currently trying to find another shop to resume my project. we'll see how it goes. The hammer and disconnector should be easy, they are simple parts. I have their rudimentary shapes saved as .dxf files. I just need to talk to someone with a wire EDM machine to see if they really can be made.

 

Post #38 would only require 1 of those if necessary to double "import counts" for dual pistons.(hammer is the easiest of the 3 viable trigger components, followed by disconnector and arrrrgh heaven forbid the trigger.... it would be a costly avenue/recourse),. The latter 2 are alleviated by domestic handguards... but leave them (handguards) intact and now we need the disconnector and trigger IF the rule mandates counting that line item twice for each hanguard HALF similar to the "per piston" count. Makes the handguard replacement worth considering. I have an EDM provider I use for my AR15 rear sight slider. They do awesome work and are very reasonable. Still wish someone knew how to get a definitive word on whether or not a line item like pistons and hanguards gets counted twice for each piece. Ask 3 people you'll get 3 answers. Think I'll call FNH tomorrow and ask what if any supplemental info they can provide regarding that, since they seem to have delved into 922R with their import/modifications once stateside. Recall they swap out the import legal tube stating 922R is only an import guideline prohibiting the assemblage of a firearm from base components, and does not prohibit altering a legally imported firearm. Let's figure it out.... FNH did! Could be we're chasing our tails over our own assumptions.

Edited by cleefurd

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Guest cleefurd

Guess we'll have to make them as described, w/factory pistol grip, and offer the option to ADD the trigger disconnector and hammer as a way to eliminate replacing the hanguard halves or pistons for those that wish to adhere to the strictest interpretation of HR922R. Obviously we did not have to contend with a "parts count" for our departmental contract. Where there's a will....

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Guest cleefurd

We are pulling the trigger now on 22 units. They will have OEM pistolgrips and cheekrests, and end user attaches his existing recoil pad. The entire skeletonized buttstock will be US made from titanium, with titanium takedown button and stainless spring within the button cavity.

 

Given the previous account, "What will they look like?" is as simple as referencing an original, and morphing the OEM casting into a stronger uni-body tig welded titanium buttstock, which can be had plain, or coated with black or desert tan Cerakote finish.

 

Price has yet to be determined, but is expected to be high due to small size of run dictated by parts availability. WILL be significantly less than OEM unit, while a near clone of it.

 

At least this way we are not looking at 10's of thousands$$ in tooling for injection molds, that may fail to materialize before BAD legislation, instead we are looking at imminent production.

 

Look for a posted price soon. And ordering details.

 

Ooorah!

Edited by cleefurd

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We are pulling the trigger now on 22 units. They will have OEM pistolgrips and cheekrests, and end user attaches his existing recoil pad. The entire skeletonized buttstock will be US made from titanium, with titanium takedown button and stainless spring within the button cavity.

 

Given the previous account, "What will they look like?" is as simple as referencing an original, and morphing the OEM casting into a stronger uni-body tig welded titanium buttstock, which can be had plain, or coated with black or desert tan Cerakote finish.

 

Price has yet to be determined, but is expected to be high due to small size of run dictated by parts availability. WILL be significantly less than OEM unit, while a near clone of it.

 

At least this way we are not looking at 10's of thousands$$ in tooling for injection molds, that may fail to materialize before BAD legislation, instead we are looking at imminent production.

 

Look for a posted price soon. And ordering details.

 

Ooorah!

 

 

Im interested once pricing, and final product photos are availible.

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Guest cleefurd
good news! too bad you aren't having the AR pistol grip option, that would have been cool.

 

Several people expressed that they actually prefer the feel of the stock grip, and its deep cushion at the web of the hand. Other venders who have tried that (including us) find it is difficult to augment with the sloped recoil tube, almost forces the AR15 grip to a position which is awkwardly low, placing trigger finger way too low by the time the web of the hand has ample room. The OEM configuration will help ease cost, and suit the crowd that likes the factory look, avoiding the "Heinz 57 look" as one post put it.

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Several people expressed that they actually prefer the feel of the stock grip, and its deep cushion at the web of the hand. Other venders who have tried that (including us) find it is difficult to augment with the sloped recoil tube, almost forces the AR15 grip to a position which is awkwardly low, placing trigger finger way too low by the time the web of the hand has ample room. The OEM configuration will help ease cost, and suit the crowd that likes the factory look, avoiding the "Heinz 57 look" as one post put it.

 

agreed, keep it looking as close to factory as possible

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