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DoctorW

M4 v.s. M2 tactical

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"The M4 is more reliable than the M1/2 with lighter loads as a rule"

True

"The M4 has a metal trigger guard"

Is there a reason I should care?

"The M4 can be had with a collapsible stock"

Yep, and it is terrific. I dearly love it without optics.

"The M4 can accept accessories without choking"

So can the M1/M2. Not as many as the M4, so if you just have to Rambo your shotgun out, go M4.

"The M4 doesn't kick nearly as hard (follow-ups are easier, even if recoil doesnt upset you)"

This, in my experience of shooting about 300 rounds of the same ammunition through the two guns, is wrong. If the M4 kicks less than the M1, it ain't by much. Why would it, other than due to the fact it is significantly heavier? Surely not due to that little 1/4" punch the pistons give the carrier, which only unlocks the bolt. From that point rearward, the operation of the two guns is identical, it seems to me.

 

I like both of them. Anyone who denigrates an M1/2, probably hasn't handled one side-by-side with an M4. The M1/2 is one of the finest tacticals ever made. If someone is concerned about weight, doesn't want to hang too much stuff on the gun, and intends to shoot full-load buckshot exclusively, the M1 is probably a better choice than the M4.

 

 

Why would it kick less?

 

It weighs almost 1.5# more

It is gas operated. There is nothing about inertia with the M4. The whole action is cycled by those pistons. Just like an HK416 or M14 or any other piston operated weapon.

 

The operation is not similar to the M1/M2 which are completely different except: the recoil spring is in the recoil tube, and the bolt-head rotates. Those are the only 2 operational similarities I can see.

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Why would it kick less?

 

It weighs almost 1.5# more

It is gas operated. There is nothing about inertia with the M4. The whole action is cycled by those pistons. Just like an HK416 or M14 or any other piston operated weapon.

 

The operation is not similar to the M1/M2 which are completely different except: the recoil spring is in the recoil tube, and the bolt-head rotates. Those are the only 2 operational similarities I can see.

 

I disagree. It is not gas operated, but is gas assisted. And if you believe there is any difference in recoil, I suggest you take one of each to the range.

 

And what other operational similarities could there be? I mean, you've got the same carrier and bolt, a recoil tube and spring, and the same style of plunger linking the carrier to the recoil spring.

 

So the only difference is the twin gas-op pistons, right?

 

In a true gas operated system, like the M-16, the force of the gas is directly on the carrier, and in my mind exerts a great deal more rearward force on the carrier than an extremely short piston strike.

 

My guess is that if you completely blocked the ports of the M4, it would still function; not so the M16.

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Z06 gives you dry-sump oil system, C6 is wet-sump.

Z06 gives you less weight by around 100#.

Z06 gives up 1 or 2 MPG IIRC.

The Z06 runs high 11's all day, the C6 low 12's to mid 12's.

Z06 will out-brake and out-handle the C6

 

Not to return to cars but it's more interestin than the last few posts.

- The dry sump is only a plus if you race the car on a weekly basis.

- 1LT Z51 = 3190lbs vs 1LZ Z06 = 3196lbs

- The LS7 does only give up a few MPG

- Correct

- My car is a Z51 so that margin is minimal

 

But once again if you really compare M4 to M2 vs Z51 to Z06 the Z06 does a few things better where as the M4 does nothing better than the M2.;)

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I disagree. It is not gas operated, but is gas assisted. And if you believe there is any difference in recoil, I suggest you take one of each to the range.

 

And what other operational similarities could there be? I mean, you've got the same carrier and bolt, a recoil tube and spring, and the same style of plunger linking the carrier to the recoil spring.

 

So the only difference is the twin gas-op pistons, right?

 

In a true gas operated system, like the M-16, the force of the gas is directly on the carrier, and in my mind exerts a great deal more rearward force on the carrier than an extremely short piston strike.

 

My guess is that if you completely blocked the ports of the M4, it would still function; not so the M16.

 

 

The M4S90 operates exactly like the HK416. It is not gas "assist". It is piston operated.

 

The gas hits the ports, makes the piston(s) move, hits the carrier, cycles the weapon. Again, just like an M16 w/piston conversion (except with the M16, since it was designed as DGI, the piston is longer.)

 

It doesn't even have the ID spring in it like the M1/M2.

Edited by Unobtanium

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Not to return to cars but it's more interestin than the last few posts.

- The dry sump is only a plus if you race the car on a weekly basis.

- 1LT Z51 = 3190lbs vs 1LZ Z06 = 3196lbs

- The LS7 does only give up a few MPG

- Correct

- My car is a Z51 so that margin is minimal

 

But once again if you really compare M4 to M2 vs Z51 to Z06 the Z06 does a few things better where as the M4 does nothing better than the M2.;)

 

 

 

I found a spec stating 3180# for the Z, but you are correct, it is heavier than I thought (still very light for it's size).

 

I guess if you view more reliable cycling with a larger variety of loads, under a wider range of conditions, as well as offering more furniture options (col. stock) nothing, then you are correct.

 

Your argument is similar to the guy who has a civic with a turbo that can hang with your C6. Yeah, his car will pull the same skid-pad numbers, and hang at the drag strip. Point remains...'vette>civic (except in build-quality, *hurls*). Much the same as M4>M2. The M4 will cycle 2.75 dram loads all day long, 3" slugs on demand without punishing you, and put a light and optic on it and you are still G2G. The M1/2? Buckshot or hi-brass loads/slugs only. Sorry, no accessories allowed. A 1-trick pony, kindof like the civic with the big turbo and suspension. Not nearly as fun to drive.

Edited by Unobtanium

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With that being said who is so cheap that they are shooting loads with less than 2 3/4 dram eq. anyway? If M4 owners want to claim M2 owners cannot afford the M4 why are they the ones shooting low dram eq. ammo?

When it comes down to it if I would have been able to pick up a M4 with a full length mag. tube right of the shop floor my decision would have been different.

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With that being said who is so cheap that they are shooting loads with less than 2 3/4 dram eq. anyway? If M4 owners want to claim M2 owners cannot afford the M4 why are they the ones shooting low dram eq. ammo?

 

When it comes down to it if I would have been able to pick up a M4 with a full length mag. tube right of the shop floor my decision would have been different.

 

 

Who brought money into this and who started calling people cheap? (not I! I am poor as ****, college student :) )

 

Also, 2.75 dram stuff is usually more expensive as it is STS target loads and the like, whereas the 3+ dram is the bargain-box dove shot and whatnot. At least at my wal-marts/Bass-Pro's.

 

We shoot low-dram (3-3.25 dram) ammo sometimes for purpose (me, using STS target loads when I want to test-to-failure, and see how little it takes to get a cycle.) and some of us do it because in this day in age, it might be all that wal-mart has for blasting with.

 

All this aside, the only thing that kept you from getting an M4 was not being able to have the OEM tube? I think Kip's tube is far superior, as are SOCOMguy's. Did you purchase before either of these two were making their tubes?

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Who brought money into this and who started calling people cheap? (not I! I am poor as ****, college student :) )

All this aside, the only thing that kept you from getting an M4 was not being able to have the OEM tube? I think Kip's tube is far superior, as are SOCOMguy's. Did you purchase before either of these two were making their tubes?

- If you look in this and most M2 vs M4 threads someone always mentions price.

- Call me crazy but **** will freeze over before I heat the **** out of a $1400 gun to add a magazine tube, that and for some reason I like to keep factory parts on a gun. I really wish that something could be changed so that Benellis came this way or had parts readily available to do so.

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- If you look in this and most M2 vs M4 threads someone always mentions price.

 

- Call me crazy but **** will freeze over before I heat the **** out of a $1400 gun to add a magazine tube, that and for some reason I like to keep factory parts on a gun. I really wish that something could be changed so that Benellis came this way or had parts readily available to do so.

 

Hrmmm...

 

Okay, this made no sense to me.

 

Using a heat gun to loosen lok-tite on a tube is not heating the **** out of it.

 

Lets look at this logically. The factory mag tube is a piece of crap that usually even can be observed to have minor dents in it from the factory. It's a bastardized component that Benelli kicked out as an afterthought.

 

It also was NOT welded in, nor was Lok-tite red used. Benelli intended this part to be removable, i.e. not permanent.

 

I am doing nothing more than a person who installs a Vararam intake on their C6 'vette. I am removing a restrictive, poorly made part, and replacing it with a better one.

 

Benelli DOES have parts available to do better--but you won't be getting them in the US of A without some serious bribery or theivery. Kip has a superior part that you CAN get, and easily replace.

 

How is heating with a heat-gun and twisting with your hands more violent than a 1oz slug battering a choke-tube while the hot gasses slam 2 steel rods into the BC which scrapes against the aluminum of the rails ripping the anodizing off? I am just unscrewing a tube and applying a little heat.

 

Do you honestly think that a weapon that made it through Aberdeen Proving Grounds and is used without issue by MARINES (who are, by nature, capable of breaking ANYTHING!) is so pathetically weak that you can compromise it with a $15 heat-gun, your bare hands, and common sense?

Edited by Unobtanium

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- Call me crazy but **** will freeze over before I heat the **** out of a $1400 gun to add a magazine tube, that and for some reason I like to keep factory parts on a gun. I really wish that something could be changed so that Benellis came this way or had parts readily available to do so.

 

you're crazy...

 

 

factory != better

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- If you look in this and most M2 vs M4 threads someone always mentions price.

- Call me crazy but **** will freeze over before I heat the **** out of a $1400 gun to add a magazine tube, that and for some reason I like to keep factory parts on a gun. I really wish that something could be changed so that Benellis came this way or had parts readily available to do so.

 

You're not just crazy, you're out of your mind.

 

Kip's titanium tube has much better finish, quality and weight savings over OEM tubes, for cheaper.

 

Parts are VERY readily available.

 

Using a heat gun on the inside of the receiver leaves no marks and is so easy a trained ape can do it.

 

Your 2 reasons for not getting an m4 are utterly retarded, but that's you are free to live your life.

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I wanted an M2 and thats what I bought if I wanted another M4 I would have got one. I'm not here to argue but to make sure that certain folks understand that price isn't always the factor here. The whole M4 or bust just gets a bit old and thats all.

To be quite truthful I would take my old SuperNova with benelli extension over both.

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I wanted an M2 and thats what I bought if I wanted another M4 I would have got one. I'm not here to argue but to make sure that certain folks understand that price isn't always the factor here. The whole M4 or bust just gets a bit old and thats all.

To be quite truthful I would take my old SuperNova with benelli extension over both.

 

That's fine, but don't act surprised when you ask for us to affirm your foolish reasoning and we decline to do so ...

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Well, no quarrel here, please. We are just talking about guns. Not a big deal, and no need to quarrel.

 

I have 2 questions:

 

Why M2 is only good for buckshots, even full load buckshots only? Why? Does M2 tactical and M2 field and SBE use the same ID system? M2 field and SBE can operate #7-1/2 and #8 shots and even target load, why M2 tactical or M1 super 90 cannot? What is the difference between them?

 

Another question is about M4. M4 uses a doulbe piston system. Why double piston? In my understanding, doulbe piston could improve reliability, but could M4 operate well when 1 piston is not working? If yes, then double piston system really enhanced the reliablity of M4; if not, the doulbe piston system even detererate the reliablity because 2 pistons are more likely to get malfunction than single piston system.

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Well, no quarrel here, please. We are just talking about guns. Not a big deal, and no need to quarrel.

 

I have 2 questions:

 

Why M2 is only good for buckshots, even full load buckshots only? Why? Does M2 tactical and M2 field and SBE use the same ID system? M2 field and SBE can operate #7-1/2 and #8 shots and even target load, why M2 tactical or M1 super 90 cannot? What is the difference between them?

 

Another question is about M4. M4 uses a doulbe piston system. Why double piston? In my understanding, doulbe piston could improve reliability, but could M4 operate well when 1 piston is not working? If yes, then double piston system really enhanced the reliablity of M4; if not, the doulbe piston system even detererate the reliablity because 2 pistons are more likely to get malfunction than single piston system.

 

The M1/M2 in stock form probably will cycle birdshot reliably. It is when you start adding weight, like a mag extension and extra rounds, that problems can develop.

 

It also might be that the recoil spring in the tactical models is designed for heavier loads. (Pure supposition there, I don't know.) Maybe you can put a lighter recoil spring in the tactical models and shoot birdshot all day long.

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Well, no quarrel here, please. We are just talking about guns. Not a big deal, and no need to quarrel.

 

I have 2 questions:

 

Why M2 is only good for buckshots, even full load buckshots only? Why? Does M2 tactical and M2 field and SBE use the same ID system? M2 field and SBE can operate #7-1/2 and #8 shots and even target load, why M2 tactical or M1 super 90 cannot? What is the difference between them?

 

Another question is about M4. M4 uses a doulbe piston system. Why double piston? In my understanding, doulbe piston could improve reliability, but could M4 operate well when 1 piston is not working? If yes, then double piston system really enhanced the reliablity of M4; if not, the doulbe piston system even detererate the reliablity because 2 pistons are more likely to get malfunction than single piston system.

 

Think about the physics for a minute here.

 

In an M16 with a piston system, or in an M14, or in a G3, or in...

 

These all use single-port and single piston designes.

 

Why?

 

Well, rifle rounds generate on the order of 3-5 times the pressure of shotgun rounds. For a shotgun round to generate enough pressure to be reliable across the board, the port would have to be large. The size of TWO M4S90 ports, and having a port that big is just asking for wadding/whatnot to be introduced to it. Ergo, they made that 1 big port, into two smaller ports.

 

Also, they need the BCG to be impacted in the center...since shotguns have a high bore-axis in relation to reciever, it couldn't go on top. Since the mag-tube is on the bottom, it couldn't go there. Ergo, they went to the side. Being as 1 piston impacting would cause premature wear as the BCG was slewed sideways, they needed 2 pistons to equalize the load somewhat.

 

And there you have it.

 

As to why Cody6.0 bought an M2 and wasted his money when he could have been happier with his Nova...who knows. I think that logic is along the same as the reason he chose the M2 over the M4.

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Think about the physics for a minute here.

 

In an M16 with a piston system, or in an M14, or in a G3, or in...

 

These all use single-port and single piston designes.

 

Why?

 

Well, rifle rounds generate on the order of 3-5 times the pressure of shotgun rounds. For a shotgun round to generate enough pressure to be reliable across the board, the port would have to be large. The size of TWO M4S90 ports, and having a port that big is just asking for wadding/whatnot to be introduced to it. Ergo, they made that 1 big port, into two smaller ports.

 

Also, they need the BCG to be impacted in the center...since shotguns have a high bore-axis in relation to reciever, it couldn't go on top. Since the mag-tube is on the bottom, it couldn't go there. Ergo, they went to the side. Being as 1 piston impacting would cause premature wear as the BCG was slewed sideways, they needed 2 pistons to equalize the load somewhat.

 

And there you have it.

 

As to why Cody6.0 bought an M2 and wasted his money when he could have been happier with his Nova...who knows. I think that logic is along the same as the reason he chose the M2 over the M4.

 

Are you stating that the G3 is a gas and piston-operated system? Are you speaking of the H&K designed G3, or civilian model91? They are roller-delayed mechanisms.

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Are you stating that the G3 is a gas and piston-operated system? Are you speaking of the H&K designed G3, or civilian model91? They are roller-delayed mechanisms.

 

Correct, yes, I am remiss. I was in a hurry when I typed that. I would like to change "G3" to AK-47. Thanks for pointing that out!

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Well, no quarrel here, please. We are just talking about guns. Not a big deal, and no need to quarrel.

 

I have 2 questions:

 

"Why M2 is only good for buckshots, even full load buckshots only? Why? Does M2 tactical and M2 field and SBE use the same ID system? M2 field and SBE can operate #7-1/2 and #8 shots and even target load, why M2 tactical or M1 super 90 cannot? What is the difference between them?"

 

 

 

 

Doc, You know, the Browning A5, another inertia-driven shotgun and one of the most famous hunting guns in history, also is not made to cycle light and heavy loads without a change. The A5 has friction rings which you add or remove depending on what loads you are using.

 

If you go with the light configuration, it will cycle both light and heavy loads, but it beats the heck out of everything if using heavy loads. If you are in heavy configuration, it might not cycle light loads.

 

The difference is that the Browning design takes only a couple minutes and no tools to make the change, while the Benelli design requires wrenches, heat, and a different recoil spring.

 

I guess Benelli figures nobody is going to bird hunt or skeet shoot with an 18" barrel, so it is set up for heavy loads, as I'm sure they would never understand why some fool would want to defend himself with light loads (there's another argument).

 

The longer-barrel guns are set up for light loads for birds and skeet. You can certainly use these guns with heavy, magnum loads.

 

The short-barrel, tacticals are engineered for police and military use, where they might see thousands of rounds of heavy loads over their lifetimes. With the goal being durability, I'm guessing Benelli engineered them with the heavy spring and intends that they be used exclusively with heavy loads.

 

That's my line of ******** for the day and I'm sticking by it.

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Unobtanium,

Ok I have been trying to be nice but please tell me this is a ******* joke, if not it is the stupidist thing I have read on here so far and is the very reason I laugh at M2 vs M4 threads.

 

Whats even funnier is right out of the box I have been shooting cheap ass Winchester low steel 2 3/4" 8 & 7 1/2 birdshot I had left over from my SN. I also shot a box of Federal high brass and one box of Federal 154 Buckshot. The only FTF I had was when I forgot to chamber a round.

 

Would you like to make fun of my new Silverado W/T too since it is the cheap model and not the super luxurious LTZ I wanted a truck and thats what I got just like I wasnted a semi-auto and got a M2.

Edited by cody6.0

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The M1/2? Buckshot or hi-brass loads/slugs only. Sorry, no accessories allowed. A 1-trick pony, kindof like the civic with the big turbo and suspension. Not nearly as fun to drive.

 

Why M2 is only good for buckshots, even full load buckshots only? Why? Does M2 tactical and M2 field and SBE use the same ID system? M2 field and SBE can operate #7-1/2 and #8 shots and even target load, why M2 tactical or M1 super 90 cannot? What is the difference between them?

 

The M1/M2 in stock form probably will cycle birdshot reliably. It is when you start adding weight, like a mag extension and extra rounds, that problems can develop.

 

It also might be that the recoil spring in the tactical models is designed for heavier loads. (Pure supposition there, I don't know.) Maybe you can put a lighter recoil spring in the tactical models and shoot birdshot all day long.

 

 

Since this came up several times...

 

I bought an M2 tactical and I've fed it $26 boxes of Federal #8 trap loads, remington trap loads, Federal "Top gun" #8 loads, Win-lite reduced recoil 2 3/4" slugs, 2 3/4 buck, 2 3/4 slugs, 3" buck, 3" slugs and I can't think what else. That weapon has never failed to cycle, fire, load, etc. It has gone boom every single time I've pulled the trigger and it hasn't cared what I loaded in the tube. It's (so far) proven 100% reliable with anything and everything...even the win-lite (reduced recoil) slugs.

 

Your results may vary, and mine might change if I were to hang more than just a nylon sling on it, but so far, it's been spectacularly reliable and even after a few hundred rounds in a single session, it's still never missed a beat. And, when you're done, it's virtually clean inside. Tear it down, wipe down the internals and relube it and then clean the barrel (just like a pump gun). I really love that shotgun. I also really liked my Nova Tactical.

 

And, I've been considering picking up an M4...just because I kinda want one of those as well. Not due to any shortcoming of my M2 tactical ("collect the whole set";)). Maybe I'll buy another Nova tactical one of these days as well...

 

As always, your results may vary. This is just my experience.

Edited by trackbird

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Since this came up several times...

 

I bought an M2 tactical and I've fed it $26 boxes of Federal #8 trap loads, remington trap loads, Federal "Top gun" #8 loads, Win-lite reduced recoil 2 3/4" slugs, 2 3/4 buck, 2 3/4 slugs, 3" buck, 3" slugs and I can't think what else. That weapon has never failed to cycle, fire, load, etc. It has gone boom every single time I've pulled the trigger and it hasn't cared what I loaded in the tube. It's (so far) proven 100% reliable with anything and everything...even the win-lite (reduced recoil) slugs.

 

Your results may vary, and mine might change if I were to hang more than just a nylon sling on it, but so far, it's been spectacularly reliable and even after a few hundred rounds in a single session, it's still never missed a beat. And, when you're done, it's virtually clean inside. Tear it down, wipe down the internals and relube it and then clean the barrel (just like a pump gun). I really love that shotgun. I also really liked my Nova Tactical.

 

And, I've been considering picking up an M4...just because I kinda want one of those as well. Not due to any shortcoming of my M2 tactical ("collect the whole set";)). Maybe I'll buy another Nova tactical one of these days as well...

 

As always, your results may vary. This is just my experience.

 

That's a great report. The M1/M2 are tremendous tactical shotguns. In addition to an M1 and M4, I also have a Beretta 1201FP (pretty much the same as an M1) which has never failed to cycle anything.

 

1201's go for 400 to 500 bucks. What a deal for somebody who's cash-strapped and wants top quality.

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One thing I rarely see mentioned is sight setup; the M2 has the option of ghost ring, open, bead {in non tactical form} and optic while the M4 is limited to ghost ring and optic sights only.

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Unobtanium,

 

Ok I have been trying to be nice but please tell me this is a ******* joke, if not it is the stupidist thing I have read on here so far and is the very reason I laugh at M2 vs M4 threads.

 

Whats even funnier is right out of the box I have been shooting cheap ass Winchester low steel 2 3/4" 8 & 7 1/2 birdshot I had left over from my SN. I also shot a box of Federal high brass and one box of Federal 154 Buckshot. The only FTF I had was when I forgot to chamber a round.

 

Would you like to make fun of my new Silverado W/T too since it is the cheap model and not the super luxurious LTZ I wanted a truck and thats what I got just like I wasnted a semi-auto and got a M2.

 

and I shot STS 1145fps target loads out of the box with my M4. The only failure I have had with it is when, being used to the SSA Geiselle trigger in my AR, is when did not fully release the trigger allowing it to reset while doing a mag-dump as fast as I could. Oh, I did get it to fail firing those loads holding it out 1-handed. And firing from the hip holding it loosely, but we all knew that would happen.

 

I thought this thread was about better and best, not "utilitarian". If this thread was about bang for your buck, yeah, a $500 used but not abused M1 takes the win, no doubt.

 

The one thing I will say is that the M1/2 system fouls less, but the M4 is about the cleanest gas-system I have ever seen. VERY clean!

Edited by Unobtanium

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