ported vs non ported chokes

[Outdoor Life]

I am in the market for a new turkey choke and looking for some advice on a few factors. First off choke constriction, I am looking at the carlson .665 for my M2, I read that this is one of the best sizes for consistent patterns but i cant pattern all of the different sizes so I dont know for sure. Also looking at ported vs non ported, any advice? Lastly choke brand, I like the carlson because I think they make the crio choke for benelli but im not sure? Any advice on which brand chokes are best. ty

Edited March 10, 2010 by Outdoor Life

[mpage24355]

You want a ported choke. It reduces muzzle jump. Carlson are good chokes, however i have never tried their turkey choke. Mudhen swears by an Indian Creek choke. I have also heard that the Primos Jelly Head, Rhino, and Pure Gold chokes are good. I have one of the new Hevi-Shot chokes for my SBEII and it patterns well, it is just once you get the choke you have to pattern many different loads to find which one your choke/gun combo likes. I also have a Kick's Gobblin Thunder choke for my Stoeger Model 2000 and it patterns well also. For a 12 gauge a .665 is a good constriction, however it still goes back to what you choke/gun combo likes. You may by 4 or 5 chokes and go through many different kinds of ammo and shot before you find what you need to shoot with that choke/gun combo. It is all trial and error, but when you find the right load for you choke/gun combo stick with it. Good Luck!

[Novaking]

I am in the market for a new turkey choke and looking for some advice on a few factors. First off choke restriction, I am looking at the carlson .665 for my M2, I read that this is one of the best sizes for consistent patterns but i cant pattern all of the different sizes so I dont know for sure. Also looking at ported vs non ported, any advice? Lastly choke brand, I like the carlson because I think they make the crio choke for benelli but im not sure? Any advice on which brand chokes are best. ty

 

You want a ported choke. It reduces muzzle jump.

 

 

Ported chokes do nothing but empty your wallet more. I have a carlson .665 and shoot hevi 3 1/2 # 5's and it shoot well out of my nova and supernova. Jellyheads and indiancreek are good as well.

 

Most people can't buy 3 or 4 chokes. I got 1 choke and 3 kinds of shells and patterned. Picked the best one.

[timb99]

Two things a ported choke cannot do:

 

1. Reduce muzzle jump (unless all the ports are on the top, which they aren't, are they?)

 

2. Reduce calculated recoil by more than about 2%.

 

What Novaking said is good advice.

[mpage24355]

This artical on Pure Gold chokes explains porting of choke tubes. The porting aides the separation of wadding from shot.

 

http://www.gameacc.net/pure_gold_lit_hunting.pdf

 

Carlson's ported turkey choke is only $40, which in the scheme of testing different turkey loads is nothing.

[mudhen]

Different companies claim to port for a variety of reasons.

 

Many claim the porting at least slows the wad down to keep the wad from disturbing the shot as it travels down range.

 

Some claim that porting vents gas off to reduce felt recoil.

 

From Indian Creek's website:

 

Part of the secret to their success is the 30 parallel ports which quickly ventilate gasses release and stop wad rotation. This can be proven by the 30 cuts in a wad after the shot. What’s more, the tubes also act like a muzzle break and greatly reduce felt-recoil.

 

 

While I don't know for a fact what porting does, I do know one thing for sure, I'll take the word of well respected and established company over the opinions of an Internet Wizard any day

 

And I get better turkey patterns from my IC choke that I do with any other choke I have ever bought, including maybe a dozen from Carlson over the years. The paper doesn't have an opinion, it just has lots of little holes in it

[hognutz]

Well said, Mudhen..

[timb99]

You can believe what you want.

 

Companies that sell chokes want you to buy THEIR chokes. And they'll tell you whatever you want to hear to get you to buy THEIRS.

 

If you believe a salesman would NEVER lie to you to get you to buy something, you can surely believe that a choke tube company would never lead you astray, right? I don't "buy" what salesmen tell me. I'm a registered professional engineer, and I'd rather let physics do the talking.

 

Extended choke tubes pattern better because they have a longer parallel section?

 

Really?

 

Teague chokes have NO parallel section, only a taper, and there are people who won't use anything else.

 

I have factory flush choke tubes with the same constriction as my Briley Spectrum extended tubes with long parallel sections, and the longer tubes do not pattern any better than the flush tubes. I use the longer tubes because they are easier to unthread. And that's it.

 

If you do some of the calculations suggested by the recoil section of "Hatcher's Notebook," a well respected ballistics treatise, you will conclude that the exiting (and expanding) gases of 3-dram shotgun shells account for about four percent of their overall calculated recoil. That's the upper limit of what ports can do, and that's assuming that ALL the gases exit via the ports. They don't.

 

Night shooting pictures indicate that a lot of gas is directed out the ports of a conventionally-ported gun and a lot goes right out the muzzle.

 

That means that if you decided that ported chokes could reduce recoil by 2% it's impossible that you would be more than 100% wrong.

 

If 2% or 4% is "greatly" reducing recoil, then I guess their claim is accurate. I'm pretty sure my shoulder couldn't tell the difference.

 

Porting (or muzzle brakes) DO substantially reduce recoil on rifles because a much, much higher percentage of the overall calculated recoil is attributable to the powder as burned gases. Sometimes as much as 40% of the recoil of rifles is attributable to gases.

 

The problem with these choke tube companies claims is they have no verifiable peer reviewed test data to support their claims. They're just that. Claims. What matters is what you see on the pattern board.

 

The reason ported choke tubes CAN'T reduce muzzle jump, is because the ports are all around the circumference of the tube. For every jet pushing down there's another one pushing up, canceling it out. Ported BARRELS on the other hand, have the resultant jet from the ports directed up, which provides a downward force on the barrel, which CAN reduce muzzle jump.

 

Wad rotation is another red herring. There are gun barrels that have straight rifling to reduce wad rotation. But its a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Based on testing done by a friend of mine, rifled shotgun barrels don't pattern any better than unrifled ones.

 

I'm not saying your ported choke tube doesn't work well. I'm just saying that its unlikely that the ports are the reason it works well.

 

And wads separate from the shot within a foot or two of the muzzle, and are then a non-factor.

 

If your super duper ported choke tube patterns well, great. Its a good choke tube. Use it. But don't think for a minute it patterns better than other tubes BECAUSE it has ports and the other ones don't.

 

Probably the biggest factor in good, tight patterns is good hard shot and buffering.

Edited March 12, 2010 by timb99

[OldFlick]

The only part I question is"And wads separate from the shot within a foot or two of the muzzle, and are then a non-factor". If they push the shot after the muzzle at all they must have some affect.

[mudhen]

Everyone is selling something

 

I'm still going to rely on reputable people who run reputable businesses long before I rely on the opinions of any Internet Wizard, no matter how much they type, and no matter what their mother says from the top of the stairs to the basement

 

Party on Wayne!

[hognutz]

 

If your super duper ported choke tube patterns well, great. Its a good choke tube. Use it. But don't think for a minute it patterns better than other tubes BECAUSE it has ports and the other ones don't.

 

Probably the biggest factor in good, tight patterns is good hard shot and buffering.

Tim, Does this then mean that if you shoot the same buffered hard shot shells through a variety of chokes that have the same restriction i.e .665, whether they be ported, non ported, extended or flush, the results would be the same? I respectfully value your opinion on this forum, but for some reason I just can't get this through my head. Mike

[timb99]

Mike,

 

No, it was not my intent to imply that. I was just saying that hard, buffered shot is really important to good, tight turkey patterns.

 

I guess my bottom line is, buy a choke tube, try several different brands of shells, even different sizes of shot, and see what works best in your gun.

 

If you don't like your results, try a different choke tube, and repeat the testing with different shells.

 

If you like ported tubes, great, but I am skeptical of their claims.

 

Tim

Edited March 11, 2010 by timb99

[hognutz]

Thanks, Tim. I actually shoot several ported chokes. I did my homework and tested shells and chokes and those were the ones that ended up being the tightest. I gladly admit being helped along the way, by a bunch of guys that know more about this stuff than I.

[timb99]

Mike,

 

I know trap shooters who swear by Comp-n-Choke brand, but its primarily because they pattern really nicely.

 

Most admit they can't tell any difference in recoil, but others swear there's a difference.

 

Like they say, YMMV.

[BARTMAN]

I vote for ported chokes do reduce felt recoil and slowing the wad. I have never had the wad reach my target like some that are posted on here. My sbe 2 will drive fence posts in the ground and it seems a lot more tolerable with the ported choke.

[ishootkittens]

Ported chokes do nothing but empty your wallet more. I have a carlson .665 and shoot hevi 3 1/2 # 5's and it shoot well out of my nova and supernova. Jellyheads and indiancreek are good as well.

 

Most people can't buy 3 or 4 chokes. I got 1 choke and 3 kinds of shells and patterned. Picked the best one.

 

 

+1110000000000

 

ported chokes are nothing special. They are supposed to reduce muzzle jump and felt recoil.. that is BS. Sure it looks good on paper, but your shoulder will feel it the same! I have a ported choke only because it was 19 bucks and it patterns great in my gun. I have a H.S. undertaker. Its a cheep choke, it shoots well even with the flitecontrol wad that is supposed to be ****** out of a ported choke. It seems to work great for me! But carlsons, indian creek, primos, h.s., and kicks make great chokes. I dont think its going to matter if your shooting a benelli. My benelli patterns good with a modified choke. My buddy had to spend 65 dollars on a choke to get his gun to pattern as well as my nelli. **** mossberg man.

[Flhawghuntr]

Everyone is selling something

 

I'm still going to rely on reputable people who run reputable businesses long before I rely on the opinions of any Internet Wizard, no matter how much they type, and no matter what their mother says from the top of the stairs to the basement

 

Party on Wayne!

 

Always someone Mud who thinks they know more than what companies spending millions on in delveloping these chokes. You have to wonder if these so called experts knew so much bout what ported or non ported supposedly do they might be working making and developing these chokes instead of posting bout a topic they really do not understand. Does make great reading though while on the throne!

[timb99]

Always someone Mud who thinks they know more than what companies spending millions on in delveloping these chokes. You have to wonder if these so called experts knew so much bout what ported or non ported supposedly do they might be working making and developing these chokes instead of posting bout a topic they really do not understand. Does make great reading though while on the throne!

 

Now that's funny, right there.

 

NOBODY, I repeat, nobody, is spending millions of dollars developing choke tubes. Nobody. Not Briley, not Carlson's, not Kicks, not Comp-n-Choke. There's no way they could be spending that kind of R&D money and also be staying in business making choke tubes. There's just not enough sales volume and profit margin on choke tubes to be spending millions on R&D.

 

Not only that...they don't need to spend that R&D money.

 

The people who make choke tubes are really, really good at machining steel parts to precise dimensions and tolerances, and programming CNC machines to mass produce these "parts."

 

But they're machinists, not engineers. And they don't test their claims, because they don't have the scientific tools and instruments necessary to test them.

 

These guys are really good machinists and salesmen.

 

But if you ask them for a peer-reviewed scientific study of how they came to the conclusions that:

 

1. Ported choke tubes substantially reduce recoil.

2. Extended tubes with long parallel sections substantially improve patterns.

3. Ported choke tubes substantially reduce muzzle jump.

4. Ported choke tubes slow the wad down to separate the wad from the shot faster, which improves patterns.

 

You'll either get an honest answer, "we didn't actually do any tests" or the dishonest answer "that's proprietary."

Edited March 12, 2010 by timb99

[mpage24355]

I suppose that the next thing is going to be that the color of the choke tube effects the way it patterns.

 

Being as we have an engineer, or excuse me a registered professional engineer, looks like he would test all this stuff for us. Although, looks like he is just bound a determined that he is right about it. All you need is a video camera to test the wad and shot separation theory, and I am sure that being an engineer you could find some way to test the recoil in foot pounds.

 

Just an idea.

[ishootkittens]

like i said. The facts look good on paper. But in the field... the recoil difference is not apparent. I am convinced that ANY choke tube (with a tight constriction) will produce a good enough pattern to kill a turkey. Its a matter of the ammo you run through the choke. I know that all of us look for a perfect pattern but all this talk of ported and non ported doesnt really matter. bottom line, is nonported chokes seem to pattern better. The ports are more for looks than anything else. That is why there are so many different sizes and shapes. Also.. im a bit confused. Why is slowing the wad a good thing? I thought if the lead stayed in the wad longer they pattern would be tighter. I have had my wad SMACK the target and even pierce the paper and stick into the supporting beam. If my lead would stay in the wad the ENTIRE time that it was in flight that would be fine with me. Thats a dead turkey when that 2oz wad smacks into its face.

[timb99]

I suppose that the next thing is going to be that the color of the choke tube effects the way it patterns.

 

Being as we have an engineer, or excuse me a registered professional engineer, looks like he would test all this stuff for us. Although, looks like he is just bound a determined that he is right about it. All you need is a video camera to test the wad and shot separation theory, and I am sure that being an engineer you could find some way to test the recoil in foot pounds.

 

Just an idea.

 

Nope. Takes way too much time, requires precision instrumentation that costs way too much money, and I have a day job.

 

I'm just trying to insert some reality into this.

 

Come on...do you guys believe the claims Vince the Shamwow guy makes on his infomercials? Of course not.

 

The claims the choke tube guys make are of the same flavor.

 

I've studied enough physics (and applied them over my 27 year career) to know BS when I hear it. And I know enough ballistics to understand what is, and is not likely or possible.

 

Yes, with a high speed camera, you can test whether a wad separates faster with, or without ports. I'm betting it does separate faster with a ported choke tube, because the heat of combustion of the powder softens the wad so much, the plastic actually extrudes into the choke tube ports as it passes by them. That's a fact. But can you prove that it really improves patterns over the exact same tube without ports? You'd have to test a tube, then test it again after it has been ported. These guys just don't go to that trouble.

 

You would think testing recoil would be pretty straightforward. The standard way is a ballistic pendulum, but that tests the ejecta after it leaves the muzzle, and doesn't test the recoil of the gun backwards to the shoulder. People smarter than me, with test apparatus I can't afford, have tried, unsuccsessfully, to test this and get precise, reliable results. Its not that easy. Which is why I contend the choke tube guys have never actually tested it.

 

Just trying to get you guys to not blindly believe what the salesmen are telling you, because some of what they're telling you simply doesn't pass physics class.

[mudhen]

Everyone is selling something

 

Everyone

[CH/QuakerBoyProstaff]

For every action, there is an equal, but opposite reaction..

[Novaking]

What Tim said. Everyone one here can say indian creek chokes are one of the best right? There choke is 100 bucks and it doesn't cost them hardy any more money to port it. But there getting that 100 buck still aren't they. I'll stick with my carslons shity choke that kills a bird every year. Thanks, but no thanks.

[Outdoor Life]

Im more confused now than I was before i posted.