Best cycling bird shot for Benelli M4 semiauto?

[hoodfu]

So here's a video (210 frames per second) of my Benelli M4 failing to cycle Winchester #8 birdshot 12 ga rounds reliably. I'd say only 50% of them would fire and bring the bolt back hard enough to chamber another round as can be seen in the video. I also tried their #7.5 birdshot rounds and they worked about 80% of the time. I've also tried the Remington #7.5 game club rounds with the same 80% reliability. I'm shooting in a light competition on steel targets in a month or so and which requires 2.75" #7.5 or higher birdshot rounds, and I'm wondering if people have had particular luck with a certain brand/type of 12ga shell in these types of semiautos. Thanks.

 

youtube.com/watch?v=bzuC3SXXPl0

[Renault]

i find any of the stuff you get at walmart in the value packs works just fine... the winchester or federal

 

in fact in like 500+ rounds i think i've only had 2 occurances with it not cycling.

Edited March 21, 2010 by Renault

[Duggan]

All birdshot should fire fine.

 

Question 1) - How many rounds are through your gun? 200+?

Question 2) - Is your bolt carrier drenched in lube? Like literally, drenched.

 

I've come to believe that failure to reliably cycle birdshot comes from one of these two factors, each and every time it comes up on these forums.

 

My first M4 wouldn't cycle anything reliably for the first ~150 rounds. Buckshot, slugs, birdshot ... it would fire 3-4 rounds and have various jams on the next. It didn't have a drop of lube on it, as I was a newb and I didn't figure it would matter.

 

12000 rounds later now and I've yet to have a single malfunction after I lubed up the bolt carrier. I've cleaned it probably 4 times in all those rounds.

 

Between 3 friends and myself, after my initial "dry" m4 fail prone firing, we have purchased and broken in 4 M4's between us. Each of them has been 100% flawless out of the box with every type of ammo, because before initial firing we slathered machine gunners lube or another dedicated high temperature gun oil on the bolt carrier and recoil spring.

 

Member "Unobtanium" on this board has been through 3, maybe 4 M4's by now, and each has been 100% out of the box as well because he knew to properly lube.

 

As such, every thread I see that related to this topic I've somewhat concluded boils down to these two things, plentiful lube and 200+ round count to make sure an overly tight tolerance isn't causing friction based stoppages (unless something is catastrophically wrong, which I have yet to see).

 

So I ask, how many rounds are through your gun? And is the interior recoil spring, bottom of the bolt carrier and receiver rails slathered up with oil AT THE TIME OF THE SHOOT? Cleaning and oiling with CLP a week prior to shooting often leads to a near completely dry gun at the time of the shoot ... as many multi purpose or cheaper oils evaporate at room temperatures or as soon as they start to heat up. Oil right before your shoot, proper lubrication is 100000x more important than cleaning when it comes to this gun (and most other guns, for the matter).

 

If you have 200+ rounds through your gun, and you're lubed up, you should be able to burn through any brand of standard birdshot rounds without any issues. If not, detail the issue here and see if we can diagnose it.

Edited March 21, 2010 by Duggan

[ROCKETW19]

All birdshot should fire fine.

 

Question 1) - How many rounds are through your gun? 200+?

Question 2) - Is your bolt carrier drenched in lube? Like literally, drenched.

 

I've come to believe that failure to reliably cycle birdshot comes from one of these two factors, each and every time it comes up on these forums.

 

My first M4 wouldn't cycle anything reliably for the first ~150 rounds. Buckshot, slugs, birdshot ... it would fire 3-4 rounds and have various jams on the next. It didn't have a drop of lube on it, as I was a newb and I didn't figure it would matter.

 

12000 rounds later now and I've yet to have a single malfunction after I lubed up the bolt carrier. I've cleaned it probably 4 times in all those rounds.

 

Between 3 friends and myself, after my initial "dry" m4 fail prone firing, we have purchased and broken in 4 M4's between us. Each of them has been 100% flawless out of the box with every type of ammo, because before initial firing we slathered machine gunners lube or another dedicated high temperature gun oil on the bolt carrier and recoil spring.

 

Member "Unobtanium" on this board has been through 3, maybe 4 M4's by now, and each has been 100% out of the box as well because he knew to properly lube.

 

As such, every thread I see that related to this topic I've somewhat concluded boils down to these two things, plentiful lube and 200+ round count to make sure an overly tight tolerance isn't causing friction based stoppages (unless something is catastrophically wrong, which I have yet to see).

 

So I ask, how many rounds are through your gun? And is the interior recoil spring, bottom of the bolt carrier and receiver rails slathered up with oil AT THE TIME OF THE SHOOT? Cleaning and oiling with CLP a week prior to shooting often leads to a near completely dry gun at the time of the shoot ... as many multi purpose or cheaper oils evaporate at room temperatures or as soon as they start to heat up. Oil right before your shoot, proper lubrication is 100000x more important than cleaning when it comes to this gun (and most other guns, for the matter).

 

If you have 200+ rounds through your gun, and you're lubed up, you should be able to burn through any brand of standard birdshot rounds without any issues. If not, detail the issue here and see if we can diagnose it.

What brand do you recomend for breaking in? do you use the same oil after broke in?

[heckler&kochp2000]

What brand do you recomend for breaking in? do you use the same oil after broke in?

 

some heavy EQ Dram just ask the store where you buy it 3" Buck shot

[StrangerDanger]

Machinegunners lube from LaRue. It's cheap and it works great. It stays where you put it. The failure you are seeing is anemic ammunition. The bolt carrier barely opens fully before closing. If the bolt carrier doesn't open fully, it doesn't hit the ejector that is on the barrel assembly. A weak hit on the ejector leads to this type of failure where the bolt closes on a spent shell before it is fully ejected.

 

Your bolt carrier link and rails should be slathered with oil. If the weapon is fairly new, it should be broken in with some high dram shells.

 

Cool videos!

[ROCKETW19]

some heavy EQ Dram just ask the store where you buy it 3" Buck shot

thankyou but what is "dram" sorry to hijack

[Duggan]

thankyou but what is "dram" sorry to hijack

 

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080416132939AACjmUi

 

Basically, any full power buckshot or slugs will work.

[StrangerDanger]

Here is some info on dram equivilents:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080416132939AACjmUi

 

Generally, it is the power factor. Higher brass usually indicates it is a heavier (more powerful) load. The more solid you hold the M4, the faster it will cycle. If you hold it at your hip and allow the weapon to travel backwards during recoil, it will perform sluggishly or fail.

 

Also, make sure you lube inside the receiver extension. You want to reduce friction inside this part by all means possible. The inner surface is rather rough.

[cody6.0]

Don't waste money breaking it in with buckshot or slugs just use some heavy field loads. I myself started both my M2 and M4 out using Federal Heavy Field loads and to date have three FTF's.

If you can find a WalMart that still has some it's only $6-7 a 25rd box which is much more economical than buckshot & slugs.

[hoodfu]

Thanks for the info guys, this helps a lot. It explains why the #7.5 shot was working better than the #8, the #7.5 was 3.25 drams and the #8 was 2.75. Unfortunately not all bird shot ammo boxes mention the dram numbers. I've got about 2-300 rounds through it so far, but I'm going to man up and take everything apart to lube it up. I'm used to ARs, so taking this apart is going to be a new experience, something that I was putting off.

[heckler&kochp2000]

Thanks for the info guys, this helps a lot. It explains why the #7.5 shot was working better than the #8, the #7.5 was 3.25 drams and the #8 was 2.75. Unfortunately not all bird shot ammo boxes mention the dram numbers. I've got about 2-300 rounds through it so far, but I'm going to man up and take everything apart to lube it up. I'm used to ARs, so taking this apart is going to be a new experience, something that I was putting off.

 

This thing is easy to take apart and put back together like in 60 seconds;)

[barometric]

i find any of the stuff you get at walmart in the value packs works just fine... the winchester or federal

 

in fact in like 500+ rounds i think i've only had 2 occurances with it not cycling.

 

agreed- i shot off a bunch yesterday - but got bored on the trap field making confetti of the torso target taped onto the metal patterning board (you cant use the rifle range itself if anyone else is there at our club )

[barometric]

Thanks for the info guys, this helps a lot. It explains why the #7.5 shot was working better than the #8, the #7.5 was 3.25 drams and the #8 was 2.75. Unfortunately not all bird shot ammo boxes mention the dram numbers. I've got about 2-300 rounds through it so far, but I'm going to man up and take everything apart to lube it up. I'm used to ARs, so taking this apart is going to be a new experience, something that I was putting off.

 

not too difficult- i'm getting faster at it. the tricky part is that pin holding the trigger assembly. they told me on here that newer ones are tight until they are undone a few times- dont slip & scratch your gun trying to push it in!

[hoodfu]

You guys were right about the lube. I took it apart and put a ton of remington oil on the whole bolt and buffer spring assemblies before going to the range and it cycled 150+ rounds of 2.75 dram #8 shot without a single short stroke. It was definitely dry when I opened it up.

[twowheelhooligan]

I slightly disagree with the break-in of any gun. My M4 was purchased new. I fired 2.75" ESTATE target loads during my first 50 rounds or so, and out of 15 or so rounds, at least 6 or 7 of them failed to cycle. after I fired about 250 rounds through it(of a total hodge-podge of ammo!) I then fired an entire box of the Estate(same ammo, lot# and everything) with nary a hiccup!

 

Break-in, yes, but not with expensive ammo. I used heavy target and turkey loads.

 

Best cycling. . . may vary, but seems like my M4 will devour just about everything.

 

If there is a load that doesn't work well, I would buy it as a training tool and/or buy dummy rounds so you can practice malfunction reactions.

[JillV]

Bump, with a question...

I am taking a shotgun course, where they suggest that autoloaders (like my M4) should bring "High base birdshot shells"... 

I don't know much about it. Can anyone give me an example of such ammo? If so, appreciated.

[JillV]

Also, do you guys think this ammo will run well in a Benelli M4?

 

 

[Sukhoi_fan]

I'm guessing your trainers meant high brass and not high base, probably because they want to train you using shot shells that aren't wimpy so you get to feel the full effect of a higher powered round. You want to avoid 'low recoil' rounds for this reason when taking a shotgun training course. An easy way to judge how much recoil one can expect is to check out the feet per second (FPS) of a particular round you're considering. 1,500 FPS in the Federal Prairie Storm ammo is on the higher end and definitely not low recoil. IMO 'low recoil' shotgun rounds are anything below 1,300 FPS. The Federal Prairie Rounds you're considering would be perfectly suitable for your training course purposes as you're definitely going to get the full effect.

If a manufacturer doesn't state the FPS spec then they should indicate 'dram equivalent', and here's an article with a chart for that -

https://www.ammoforsale.com/ammo-club/what-is-dram-12-gauge-equivalent-chart/

Buy in bulk and $ave -

https://ammoseek.com/

[JillV]

4 hours ago, Sukhoi_fan said:

I'm guessing your trainers meant high brass and not high base, probably because they want to train you using shot shells that aren't wimpy so you get to feel the full effect of a higher powered round. You want to avoid 'low recoil' rounds for this reason when taking a shotgun training course. An easy way to judge how much recoil one can expect is to check out the feet per second (FPS) of a particular round you're considering. 1,500 FPS in the Federal Prairie Storm ammo is on the higher end and definitely not low recoil. IMO 'low recoil' shotgun rounds are anything below 1,300 FPS. The Federal Prairie Rounds you're considering would be perfectly suitable for your training course purposes as you're definitely going to get the full effect.

If a manufacturer doesn't state the FPS spec then they should indicate 'dram equivalent', and here's an article with a chart for that -

https://www.ammoforsale.com/ammo-club/what-is-dram-12-gauge-equivalent-chart/

Buy in bulk and $ave -

https://ammoseek.com/

I appreciate it. 
 

On a related note, any advice on good slugs to feed the M4? I've heard from people that Sabot slugs are not preferred, because those are meant for a rifled barrel, which the M4 does not have. But I don't know much about this myself.

[Sukhoi_fan]

On 9/10/2024 at 3:35 PM, JillV said:

I appreciate it. 
 

On a related note, any advice on good slugs to feed the M4? I've heard from people that Sabot slugs are not preferred, because those are meant for a rifled barrel, which the M4 does not have. But I don't know much about this myself.

On the low end of the spectrum there's the Foster pattern lead slug and the Brenneke pattern lead slug, many prefer the Brenneke slug. Suggest you research Foster and Benneke slugs. (Brenneke still regarded as a genius a century later) There are other alternatives for instances where a slug may be called for, this youtuber posts about all sorts of 12 ga. slugs 

https://www.youtube.com/@taofledermaus/videos

So you have options.

Personally I'm not a big fan of the 1 oz. lead slugs in either the Foster or Brenneke pattern. For one thing I don't like having to clean a leaded up barrel from shooting lead slugs, and the other is I can get better and more versatile results from a variety of DDupleks steel slugs. DDupleks rounds are much more expensive than lead slugs. The DDupleks Monolit rounds are apparently unavailable in the USA at this time. I stocked up on DDupleks slugs years ago when DDupleks slugs were much cheaper.

https://www.ddupleks.com/products

DDupleks introduced a frangible slug they call the Kaviar since I loaded up on DDupleks slugs years ago. Kinda like a Glazer safety slug, it has much lower muzzle velocity and energy, making it safer overall when innocent bystanders are in the immediate environment. And just like a Glaser slug there are limited instances where you'd use it, just another tool in your toolbox.

YMMV

[JillV]

16 hours ago, Sukhoi_fan said:

On the low end of the spectrum there's the Foster pattern lead slug and the Brenneke pattern lead slug, many prefer the Brenneke slug. Suggest you research Foster and Benneke slugs. (Brenneke still regarded as a genius a century later) There are other alternatives for instances where a slug may be called for, this youtuber posts about all sorts of 12 ga. slugs 

https://www.youtube.com/@taofledermaus/videos

So you have options.

Personally I'm not a big fan of the 1 oz. lead slugs in either the Foster or Brenneke pattern. For one thing I don't like having to clean a leaded up barrel from shooting lead slugs, and the other is I can get better and more versatile results from a variety of DDupleks steel slugs. DDupleks rounds are much more expensive than lead slugs. The DDupleks Monolit rounds are apparently unavailable in the USA at this time. I stocked up on DDupleks slugs years ago when DDupleks slugs were much cheaper.

https://www.ddupleks.com/products

I see that DDupleks introduced a frangible slug they call the Kaviar since I loaded up on DDupleks slugs years ago. Kinda like a Glazer safety slug, it has much lower muzzle velocity and energy, making it safer overall when innocent bystanders are in the immediate environment. And just like a Glaser slug there are limited instances where you'd use it, just another tool in your toolbox.

YMMV

Wow you are giving me a wealth of knowledge in this thread, I really appreciate it.

Final question: do you have any advice or recommendations for birdshot I should get for this course, when the requirement is 400 rounds? I don't want the best of the best ie expensive stuff, but of course I would like it to cycle in my M4.

The one requirement is it has to be lead, no steel.

Edited September 11, 2024 by JillV

[Sukhoi_fan]

https://ammoseek.com/ammo/12-gauge?ekw=steel&ikw=1500 fps