Versa Max Benelli M4 clone

[etcetera]

Remington Versa Max already uses a gas system similar to M4's, supposedly the trigger group is identical and here is what happens when you add a M4 PG to a Tactical VM. Not exactly a clone. You can call it Remelli or Benington. This is something Remington should have done from the factory instead of messing with duck guns.

 

 

Advantages over M4: Higher capacity by 1, no part count issues, arguably lighter recoil, a little cheaper, can feed 3.5" shells.

 

Disadvantages: A 22" barrel is about as "tactical" as a broom, too front-heavy and too long. I am not complaining because it can do 8+1+1 but wish it was 20". That is the main problem with the VM Tactical.

 

Conclusion: I think a genuine M4 would still be my first choice, but a Versa Max Benington is a close second. Zero issues of any kind. I find the fixed M4 stock decent with LOP being just right.

Edited December 24, 2013 by etcetera

[HopetonBrown]

I have no use for a 22" long combat shotgun.

 

The sweet spot is the R12, but apparently Remington thinks us civilians aren't worthy.

[12508]

If the trigger parts are identical, would that make an easy 922r swap?

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Products/1458400.htm

 

I was hoping the pistons at least would interchange but they appear to be different.

The bolt looks eerily similar. Etcetera- could you post pics of the bolt on your VM?

 

 

Does anyone have any side to side pics of the VMT and M4?

Edited December 24, 2013 by 12508

[etcetera]

Will do.

R12 version looks nice until you realize you take a cut in capacity: the 14" version has only 5+1 while 18" is 6+1.

 

The full length version is nice as it can take 10, with one in chamber and one ghost-loaded.

[12508]

Can't wait.

Merry Christmas!

[HopetonBrown]

Will do.

R12 version looks nice until you realize you take a cut in capacity: the 14" version has only 5+1 while 18" is 6+1.

 

The full length version is nice as it can take 10, with one in chamber and one ghost-loaded.

 

Capacity on a shotgun is really a non-issue. If you train with a competent instructor, you can keep that thing fed. Shoot 2, load 2, etc. I'd rather have a 5 shot, nimble shotgun than a 10 shot 22" broomstick.

[AVATactical.com]

Removable Mag Fed Shotgooons...

 

I don't disagree that being competent and feeding your mag tube is a must, but I would say feeding mag tubes is a tactical issue through and through. There is a pause to feed which is longer than the pause to drop and replace a mag. You can train to reduce this lag, but it is there no matter how much you train.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love my M4. I do.

 

There is a reason you don't see tube fed battle rifles.

[etcetera]

Capacity in a shotgun is an acute issue and a 22" is trade off thats well worth it. Additional benefits include lower recoil and some say higher velocity.

[BLACK]

Decent first post for a troll. I give it 5/10.

[truckcop]

Well, since this thread went off in this direction, allow me a few cents worth. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone about how the ability to maintain sustained shotgun fire was instrumental in successfully surviving a firefight, OR, how the inability to maintain sustained shotgun fire was a factor in failure to survive a firefight. I am personally aware of numerous firefights involving at least one shotgun and unaware of any that involved a reload. All were resolved within the capacity of the shotgun at hand. That's what caused one state agency I'm familiar with to leave the AR-style carbine and go back to the shotgun as the primary for most operations. Just wonderin'. Yes, training to a level of competency in your manual-of-arms is certainly advisable but outside the realm of games, i.e., 3-gun, etc., the need to actually put it in real-life practice is probably one of the most remote possibilities in personal defense situations. If you've emptied the magazine on a home defense shotgun and that's a factor in your survival or not, you've probably got bigger problems than that. Or you live in Detroit.

[MtGoat]

So is the VM trigger group a direct replacement for a Benelli M4 trigger group?

Has anyone tried it?

 

Thanks

Pat

[AVATactical.com]

Well, since this thread went off in this direction, allow me a few cents worth. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone about how the ability to maintain sustained shotgun fire was instrumental in successfully surviving a firefight, OR, how the inability to maintain sustained shotgun fire was a factor in failure to survive a firefight. I am personally aware of numerous firefights involving at least one shotgun and unaware of any that involved a reload. All were resolved within the capacity of the shotgun at hand. That's what caused one state agency I'm familiar with to leave the AR-style carbine and go back to the shotgun as the primary for most operations. Just wonderin'. Yes, training to a level of competency in your manual-of-arms is certainly advisable but outside the realm of games, i.e., 3-gun, etc., the need to actually put it in real-life practice is probably one of the most remote possibilities in personal defense situations. If you've emptied the magazine on a home defense shotgun and that's a factor in your survival or not, you've probably got bigger problems than that. Or you live in Detroit.

 

 

Certainly true.

 

I'd say there are no such examples though, BECAUSE removable box mag fed rifles are almost invariably in support of those with shotguns in a fire fight. In those examples where someone with a shotgun is in battle with out support of those with a rifle I'd bet dollars to donuts that man with the shotgun damn well wished he had a box mag fed shotgun.

 

 

If you are not putting rounds down range, you're a dead man.

 

 

The reality of SD situations is very few shots are fired before the fights over. However those are famous last words if you ever empty your gun and your adversary is still mobile. Statistics mean nothing at that point.

Edited December 26, 2013 by AVATactical.com

[HopetonBrown]

Capacity in a shotgun is an acute issue and a 22" is trade off thats well worth it. Additional benefits include lower recoil and some say higher velocity.

 

I'm talking about LEO and self defense applications, don't know if you are.

 

If it's an acute issue then why doesn't US law enforcement employ 22" shotguns? They don't. They use 14" and 18" shotguns.

 

The Versamax Tactical is a 22" 3 gun competition shotgun for gamers.

 

The R12 is a law enforcement gun and comes in 2 lengths; 14" and 18". The Benelli M4 is a law enforcement/military gun that comes in 2 lengths; 14" and 18".

 

I took a 2 day defensive shotgun class this year with shotgun SME Rob Haught. He said something to the effect "you don't know how great shotgunning is until you try a 14 inch gun".

[etcetera]

I'm talking about LEO and self defense applications, don't know if you are.

 

I don't do either, it's more of a TSHTF piece.

 

If it's an acute issue then why doesn't US law enforcement employ 22" shotguns? They don't. They use 14" and 18" shotguns.

 

It was just answered above. In dot mil for instance, they work in teams. Point guy with a shotgun, one with SAW, the rest with M4 carbines, et cetera. Whatever is the squad configuration. I don't have that luxury, of a "mag-fed rifle" as a backup.

 

The Versamax Tactical is a 22" 3 gun competition shotgun for gamers.

 

The R12 is a law enforcement gun and comes in 2 lengths; 14" and 18". The Benelli M4 is a law enforcement/military gun that comes in 2 lengths; 14" and 18".

 

I took a 2 day defensive shotgun class this year with shotgun SME Rob Haught. He said something to the effect "you don't know how great shotgunning is until you try a 14 inch gun".

 

I agree and I hear you. However, the other side of the coin is, you don't know how great shotgunning is until you try a VMT that has been Pistol-gripped a la Benelli M4. Reduced recoil loads are unbelievable. I do think a little extra capacity is a tactical advantage. I haven't test driven a R12 but the heavier weight VMT should recoil less theoretically allowing faster follow up shots, with a higher capacity that further enables that, less time spent reloading.

 

I am aware of the shoot one, load one mantra, and also a backup sidearm I think are the standard ways to deal with low capacity.

 

I wish they had made a 8+1+1 version with a 20" barrel. With a 22", a 9+1+1 makes more sense. I suppose they did not overcome that engineering issue.

 

[HopetonBrown]

I'm not sure what US law enforcement entity uses SAWs.

 

I really have to stop having conversations with internet gurus whose weapons education is from Call Of Duty.

[Sukhoi_fan]

Certainly true.

 

I'd say there are no such examples though, BECAUSE removable box mag fed rifles are almost invariably in support of those with shotguns in a fire fight. In those examples where someone with a shotgun is in battle with out support of those with a rifle I'd bet dollars to donuts that man with the shotgun damn well wished he had a box mag fed shotgun.

 

 

If you are not putting rounds down range, you're a dead man.

 

 

The reality of SD situations is very few shots are fired before the fights over. However those are famous last words if you ever empty your gun and your adversary is still mobile. Statistics mean nothing at that point.

 

Viewing things strictly from a tactical perspective based upon my own RW experience (justified shooting with a five round pump, and I can tell you from my own personal first hand experience it's the worst feeling in the world to be down to 1 or 2 rounds when the fight is still ongoing, therefore I now place a very high priority on having a topped off mag and extra ammo at hand) along with hanging out for several years with those who carry a gun for a living (seasoned patrol officers, SWAT, gov's security detail) a detachable mag fed shotty is at a disadvantage to a tube fed mag shotty, even if limited to five rounds. The reason being is that with practical tactical shotgun use in a social situation one is generally in much closer proxmity to the bad guy(s). I can't think of a single 'stand alone' tactical scenario (meaning you're completely on your own with no help coming anytime soon) where a detachable mag shotgun would be preferable to tube mag shotgun. For one thing, who is able to maintain a count of their shots under stressfire?? Just not gonna happen, I don't care how much training one has had. In a tactical situation one MUST be firing and maneuvering, and while on the move one should be topping off one's tube mag. Not practical to top off a detachable mag, have to wait for the appropriate time to change to a fresh mag - way too many uncertainties with that. What if one has a face to face shootout with multiple assailants at 7 yards (the average distance in social situations) and one only has 1 or 2 rounds left in one's detachable magazine since one hasn't been able to keep topping it off like one could with a standard tube mag? Oops. And additionally, where do you carry all those HUGE spare shotgun mags?? One bandolier = 50 rounds of shotgun ammo, to match that one would need FIVE 10 round mags or TWO 20 round drums (if one has a 3rd 20 round drum in their S-12).

 

Also, there's only one shotgun with a detachable magazine worth considering and that's the Saiga 12 - although a respectable, reliable shotgun definitely NOT the optimum profile of a tactical shotgun for shoot and scoot in CQB/social situations. Saiga 12 with ten round mag -

 

 

Of course JMO, YMMV.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Sukhoi_fan

[AVATactical.com]

I would say just like anything else, the rest of the systems would have to be adapted, but if box mag fed shotties were available people would (and have) adopted the carriage for the mags as well.

 

Sure, only those geared for war or for a well organized offensive action are going to be geared up properly to feed a box mag fed shotty but that is no different that a box mag fed rifle. Still, I don't see tube mag fed rifles gaining popularity in tactical circles.

 

 

I have both a saiga and a vepr shotgun that have been reworked end to end. I also have a TAC-12. They are great, but I'd love to see more offerings of box mag fed shotties.

[12508]

Oooh. Lets see pics of your vepr with a comparo vs an M4.

[AVATactical.com]

Here's a bunch of em:

 

TAC-12, Vepr-12, M4, Bullpup S12, 870 Witness Protection.

 

[AVATactical.com]

M4 SBS, I should clarify.

[Sukhoi_fan]

Here's a bunch of em:

 

TAC-12, Vepr-12, M4, Bullpup S12, 870 Witness Protection.

 

 

Very nice lineup.

 

It's worth noting that lever action rifles make fine 'aggie assault rifles' since one can keep the tube magazines topped off while shooting and scooting (however one drawback is that if the mag tube gets dented you may have problems). And on another note, there's no way in the world that the S-12 comes close to the sweet ergonomics of modern weapons such as the M4, SCAR, etc. in particular with respect to FAST mag changes. IMHO, the S-12 is perfectly suited for two scenarios - as an ambush gun in a fixed, barricaded position, or as an integral part of a fire team with adequate numbers (of course all armed with modern semi-auto rifles which accommodate fast mag changes) - and that's about it. Although the S-12 with a 20 round drum is a LOT of firepower it is just not well suited for fire and maneuver tactics from a stand alone perspective. Again, jmo.

[AVATactical.com]

I do like the ergos of the AR over the AK, I admit.

 

You can get AR ergos though if you want on a S-12. See R&R targets. For that matter watch their videos if you want to see the down range power of a mag fed shotty. The mag length can get a bit ridiculous as the videos are 3 gun type stuff. But you can get chest rings for S12 mags if that is your gig.

 

For pure AR egros, the TAC-12 has them. Bad-Ass safety, extended Mag release, bolt release in the same place as the AR. Mag well, etc. PLUS - as a bonus, the ergos are improved, you cannot see it in that picture but there is a non-reciprocating left hand charging handle on the the front stock.

 

Not saying it is battle proven though. If I had to pick one and scoot, it would be my M4.

[12508]

Nice VEPR 12.

I have been wanting one for awhile.

Found one at a gun show but the furniture seemed incredibly cheap.

Yours look great though.

 

I assume mag changes are much faster in the VEPR vs S12?

[AVATactical.com]

They can be. Changing mags in a AR vs AK, rock and lock is not as good IMO as the drop free system on ARs.

 

There are nice mag well mods for S12 that work well. Even the Vepr mag well is not as good as the AR because of the mag release, although you can get pretty close.

 

EDIT: Vepr-12 Furniture is mixed. Polymer Grip and hand guards may not feel great, but they are military tough poly. No issues at all. Fixed wood stock is junk. If you don't like the poly, it can be swapped out for whatever, there are fully milled aluminium quad rails out for it now. You can adapt any grip you want for it. It is a formidable beast. It can put a lot of rounds down range and it is AK reliable.

Edited December 31, 2013 by AVATactical.com

[etcetera]

Viewing things strictly from a tactical perspective based upon my own RW experience (justified shooting with a five round pump, and I can tell you from my own personal first hand experience it's the worst feeling in the world to be down to 1 or 2 rounds when the fight is still ongoing, therefore I now place a very high priority on having a topped off mag and extra ammo at hand) along with hanging out for several years with those who carry a gun for a living (seasoned patrol officers, SWAT, gov's security detail) a detachable mag fed shotty is at a disadvantage to a tube fed mag shotty, even if limited to five rounds. The reason being is that with practical tactical shotgun use in a social situation one is generally in much closer proxmity to the bad guy(s). I can't think of a single 'stand alone' tactical scenario (meaning you're completely on your own with no help coming anytime soon) where a detachable mag shotgun would be preferable to tube mag shotgun. For one thing, who is able to maintain a count of their shots under stressfire?? Just not gonna happen, I don't care how much training one has had. In a tactical situation one MUST be firing and maneuvering, and while on the move one should be topping off one's tube mag. Not practical to top off a detachable mag, have to wait for the appropriate time to change to a fresh mag - way too many uncertainties with that. What if one has a face to face shootout with multiple assailants at 7 yards (the average distance in social situations) and one only has 1 or 2 rounds left in one's detachable magazine since one hasn't been able to keep topping it off like one could with a standard tube mag? Oops. And additionally, where do you carry all those HUGE spare shotgun mags?? One bandolier = 50 rounds of shotgun ammo, to match that.

......

 

Well thought-out, logical response worth quoting.