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Jolly Roger

A&S trigger guard problems

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If the hammer is down and I put the gun on safety and try and work the bolt it will not cock all the way back unless I really rack it hard.

 

(Basically the gun wont cock when its on safe)

 

I have two m4s and the one with the stock trigger guard does not do this, only the one that has the A&S trigger guard installed does.

 

I've compared both side by side to see what was going on and here is the scoop..

 

On the A&S trigger guard, when the bolt is in the process of cocking the hammer back (purple arrow) the sear can not move forward enough (yellow arrow) to allow the hammer to move downward enough (red arrow) to engage like it should.

The bolt stops right at this point because the friction of the hammer face (red) and the sear face (yellow) is so great and has no play.

When off safety the sear(y) moves freely forward and all is just fine.

PB100003.jpg

 

On the non modified trigger guard the sear (even while on safety) moves just enough that the hammer can sneak past and engage.

 

Does your M4 cock without hangup after its been fired, put on safety?

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I think the problem may lie in the A&S rear trigger pin interface. A&S provides a larger pin for the trigger group but by doing so has limited the movement needed.?

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Hmmmm, interesting.....

 

When I installed the parts in my A&S, I drove out the roll pin that A&S provides for the trigger stop pin and put in my OEM solid pin, mostly because it is NP3 plated, (and StrangerDanger does it with his:)). I like solid pins but mostly because it was plated along with the other trigger group small parts.

 

Did you try it slowly or, normal racking speed/force like you were gonna chamber a round?

 

That said, I believe that I read a long time ago here on this forum, that you're not supposed to do that. That it is supposed to be bad for something in the trigger group, I can't remember what though.

 

In fact someone will probably come along soon and tell me I'm full of crap. But I am sure I read it somewhere. Pretty sure it was here.

Edited by Evolution

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I have a Briley trigger set and the hammer fit was way too tight in the hammer channel of the triggerguard. The parts assembled but did not function. As a quick fix I used lapping compound and worked the two parts by hand until the fit was nice and smooth. I have some concern that the fit is still too tight for dirty combat conditions and I plan to widen the channel on the mill next time I have it apart. and before any re-coating for color.

 

Rasyad

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I have a Briley trigger set and the hammer fit was way too tight in the hammer channel of the triggerguard. The parts assembled but did not function. As a quick fix I used lapping compound and worked the two parts by hand until the fit was nice and smooth. I have some concern that the fit is still too tight for dirty combat conditions and I plan to widen the channel on the mill next time I have it apart. and before any re-coating for color.

 

Rasyad

 

Do you have a caliper or micrometer to measure the hammer widths? I have a Geissele hammer which, in my OEM trigger housing had quite a sloppy side to side movement exactly as the OEM hammer did. No doubt purposely engineered that way for combat conditions. When I swapped to the A&S housing, I was pleasantly surprised to find that 90% of what I considered to be excessive play disappeared.

 

There is still some side to side play in the hammer channel which I feel is needed but, most of it has gone away with the A&S housing.

 

I am anxious to see what the experienced M4 guys here have to say about this cocking with the safety on thing.....

Edited by Evolution

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This is normal. I have now had 3 OEM benelli metal trigger guards in the last month. ALL 3 behave as you say in your OP. Further Benelli addresses this in their armorer course, based on older posts on this forum.

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This is normal. I have now had 3 OEM benelli metal trigger guards in the last month. ALL 3 behave as you say in your OP. Further Benelli addresses this in their armorer course, based on older posts on this forum.

 

Which is normal? Not being able to cock the hammer with the safety on or, being able to cock it with the safety on? The OP has experienced both. Clarify please?

 

I could have sworn that I was able to do it, now I just tried again and the bolt stops opening about an inch from the breech when trying to cock the hammer with the safety on. I'm not gonna try to force it. I must be losing my mind.....

Edited by Evolution

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Which is normal? Not being able to cock the hammer with the safety on or, being able to cock it with the safety on?

Cocking the weapon with the safety on is physically difficult and not recommended.

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Cocking the weapon with the safety on is physically difficult and not recommended.

 

This is good to know but one of my M4's does it and the other does not....mmmm

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Since my un-modified M4 cocks the hammer with the safety engaged with little effort, I assumed it was an aftermarket A&S problem being how the tolerances are so much tighter...

Edited by Jolly Roger

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This is a common problem with the Geissele hammers as well. Tolerances on the tighter side. Tight tolerances aren't always a good thing. In combat weapons, it's good to have some slop to allow it to operate in poor conditions. It hasn't shown to be a reliability problem as of yet. I can't say much about the A&S packs, but I put about 2500 rounds through the M4 without cleaning it. I just shot extra oil in randomly. Eventually I just got bored and cleaned it which ended that little test.

 

Shotguns tend to have a lot more debris flying around in the action than other firearms. Buffer media within the shot shells ends up everywhere including in the trigger pack.

 

A&S has a video on facebook showing them comparing OEM trigger packs with witness pins. They showed there is some variation between batches of trigger packs including the polymer ones.

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Haha, silly aftermarket trigger housing when the oem aluminum is already perfect!! SMH

 

Your opinion.

 

the A&S is a superior part, functionally and cosmetically.

Edited by M2_shootr

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A&S is not a superior part in any way. The reported problems is a perfect example.

 

No poblems with the part at all.

the issue is a KNOWN anomaly with the Benelli, NOT a trigger guard.

Edited by M2_shootr

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A&S is not a superior part in any way. The reported problems is a perfect example.

 

I guess the OEM is a problem then, too, because every M4 with a metal trigger guard I've had recently has done it. Benelli teaches this in their armorer course.

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In retrospect I wish I would have titled this thread "A&S trigger question" instead of "A&S trigger problems"

Because as it turned out, there was no problem with the A&S trigger guard....except maybe superior fit and closer tolerances...

 

I just got back from Cabella's where I tried the action of every M4 they had in stock. They ALL were capable of charging the bolt back after the hammer had dropped and was put on safety. BUT They all did so with varying degree's of difficulty.

One of them cycled perfectly no matter if it was on safety or not, the others all stopped about half "chuck" but could be forced with varying degree's of difficulty. Kinda wish Benelli would have just locked the feature out all together..instead of "some do and some dont"...

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In retrospect I wish I would have titled this thread "A&S trigger question" instead of "A&S trigger problems"

Because as it turned out, there was no problem with the A&S trigger guard....except maybe superior fit and closer tolerances...

 

I just got back from Cabella's where I tried the action of every M4 they had in stock. They ALL were capable of charging the bolt back after the hammer had dropped and was put on safety. BUT They all did so with varying degree's of difficulty.

One of them cycled perfectly no matter if it was on safety or not, the others all stopped about half "chuck" but could be forced with varying degree's of difficulty. Kinda wish Benelli would have just locked the feature out all together..instead of "some do and some dont"...

 

+1 on all you said.

 

Probably they all were polymer trigger housings in those guns that you tried and, as pointed out by Unobtainium, they will give some while the metal ones will not.

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In retrospect I wish I would have titled this thread "A&S trigger question" instead of "A&S trigger problems"

Because as it turned out, there was no problem with the A&S trigger guard....except maybe superior fit and closer tolerances...

 

I just got back from Cabella's where I tried the action of every M4 they had in stock. They ALL were capable of charging the bolt back after the hammer had dropped and was put on safety. BUT They all did so with varying degree's of difficulty.

One of them cycled perfectly no matter if it was on safety or not, the others all stopped about half "chuck" but could be forced with varying degree's of difficulty. Kinda wish Benelli would have just locked the feature out all together..instead of "some do and some dont"...

 

I don’t see it as a problem. We all learn the anomonalies of weapons at some point.

I thought the same exact thing a while ago

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